Project Input Sought

[far-trader]

Greetings one and all gearheads and aspiring Naval Architects.

I was doing a little (long overdue, like decades

) spring cleaning and came across some old model kits. Well one of the kits inspired me so I started kitbashing it with a couple others and worked up a design to go with it (T20). Problem is, unlike most other designs I do, I have a considerable volume left I'm not sure what to do with. So I thought why not see what a few other bright minds might suggest. First a brief outline of the design thus far...

T20 TL-14 3,000T Destroyer Escort

Wedge Hull with Airframe upgrade

Factor 5 Hull Armor

Model 6fib Computer and electronics

Jump 3 (with fuel for 1J3)

Maneuver 6

Power 12 (4x Power 3)

Fuel scoops and Purifier 3

Nuke Damper F5

Meson Screen F5

PA Barbettes F2 x2 Batteries

Fusion Guns F6 x4 Batteries

Pulse Lasers F4 x2 Batteries

HE Missile Launchers F5 x2 Batteries

BP Laser Missile Launchers F4 x2 Batteries

Nuclear Missile Launchers F3 x2 Batteries

each missile turret has an adjacent autoloader magazine attached

Crew of 61 including 9 Ships Troops

Frozen Watch of 30

Two Sickbays

Two Engineering Shops


This leaves me with 173.0T to play with. I'm pondering some of:

Some additional Airlocks for evac and compartmentalization.

An auxilliary/backup bridge.

A Ship's Boat to serve in an away or life-boat capacity. Or perhaps more than one. Or maybe small (1T-3T) standardized personnel escape pods.

More armor. Almost always a good thing for a DE.

More Power. Currently there are choices to be made in the power allocation, keeping the engineers busy. You can power the maneuver and weapons but lose factors off the screens (imtu the factor is the max, lower the power and it moves down the table, just like if it were damaged). Or you can power the maneuver and agility but not fire weapons (I don't like the whole 'free' emergency agility rule, or the 'cheap' weapon overpower either. In both cases if the engineers can find the power to do it by diverting from other systems then ok, and for weapons each added level of power gets another shot at the same factor, but that's just mtu).

More Ship's Troops, but its more of a killer than a capture role so I'm not so sure.

The weapons are based on the model kit's attributes so I'll not be changing that. The nukes are in pop-up turrets which in my game mean they are immune to damage (though the magazines may still be hit), being exposed only briefly while they launch (hey that x5 and double volume better be worth something). Besides even The Navy doesn't want to advertise its nuke capability in every port.

One perhaps bizzare notion I had, inspired by the model, is increasing the Structural Integrity to give it an option for ramming with less risk to itself

Problem is I see no mention in the rules about increasing the SI in a design. I'm considering starting a thread to add it as an option to the communities house rules. It seems to me that adding armor should bump up the SI a bit too but the design system only factors the overall size (no doubt for simplicity). So what say you all, is there some interest is such added detail, or is it of too limited use?

OK, lets have it, the floor is yours, what would you do to fill out the extra volume?

 

[tjoneslo]

In no particular order:
* make sure the ship can have agility 6.

* have a larger computer. If nothing else make sure the sensor array is level 9.

* More Armor.

* Increase the nuclear damper.

* Dump the meson screeen. If you come across anything large enough to have a meson gun, it's large enough to toast this ship with or without a meson screen.

* Add a couple of modular cutters for extra transport work. They can double as escape pods.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by tjoneslo:
In no particular order:
* make sure the ship can have agility 6.

Yep, it can, at a sacrifice of some offense. It can manage agility 3 and full fire, so more power is a possible consideration.

* have a larger computer. If nothing else make sure the sensor array is level 9.

Would be nice but budget and TL have dictated Model 6 as tactically sufficient.

* More Armor.

Yeah, probably the best single add-on.

* Increase the nuclear damper.

Probably a good bet, could get one more factor pretty cheaply.

* Dump the meson screeen. If you come across anything large enough to have a meson gun, it's large enough to toast this ship with or without a meson screen.

I don't agree, there could be some ships in its weight class with a meson gun bay and it'd be nice to have the screen, and it'd also give you a slim hope if you did stumble onto a big boy with a spinal meson. It's (relatively) cheap, small and energy efficient.

* Add a couple of modular cutters for extra transport work. They can double as escape pods.

Cutter's might work, I just like my subcraft to have the same maneuver for coordinated action without requiring the faster ship(s) to sacrifice acceleration.

Thanks for the input, it is much appreciated and beats arguing with myself

 

[far-trader]

I just posted a rough outline of my proposed Structural Integrity Upgrades house rule addition. Its for T20 and for now at least strictly IMTU and in development. Pop by and offer your constructive criticism, laurels, stones, whatever.

 

[shield]

Uprate the power plant, get everything powered at once, then add armour and finally add a small away craft even if its only a G carrier or 10tn launch. Useful for personnel transfers, boarding actions, escape pod etc.

Cheers
Richard

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by RichardP:
Uprate the power plant, get everything powered at once, then add armour and finally add a small away craft even if its only a G carrier or 10tn launch. Useful for personnel transfers, boarding actions, escape pod etc.

Cheers
Richard

Cheers, and thanks for the input. Personally I like my ships with as little power as will do the job by switching priorities. As I explained on another forum...

Its more a budget issue and I like the idea of managing a limited resource, probably saw too many ST episodes with "Divert all power to the (fill in blank)!" in my impressionable youth

I've pretty much decided on squeezing in a pair of gigs or boats for subcraft, never went in for the grav vehicles in space school of thought

On a related note certainly I can't be the only one who likes to design ships across the whole TL and budget spectrum? Do most of you think (contrary to canon) that the only ships worth building have to be TL15 and never mind the budget? Or is it that you would prefer to spend what time you do have for designs on the cool high tech whatever I want designs? I'm not faulting anyone for that choice, I'm just kind of curious, hmm this might be worthy of a survey, been looking for a good subject to try it out with...

 

[robject]

Originally posted by far-trader:

... Do most of you think (contrary to canon) that the only ships worth building have to be TL15 and never mind the budget? Or is it that you would prefer to spend what time you do have for designs on the cool high tech whatever I want designs? ... [/QB]

No Way. IMTU the average ship (1st standdard deviation?) is TL 12. Players are going to get saddled with mid-starship-tech, if only to make frontier repairs possible...

[Players land their badly damaged TL15 ship at a frontier port]

Port mechanic: "Wazzat? One o' them high-tech newfangled jobs?"

Captain: "Um, yeah... it's in the Imperial tech range..."

Mech: "Sure, and them TL-15 ports can fix it up right purty."

Captain: "Ah yes, well, you see, the problem is that our jump drive is in a failure state."

Mech: "Well, I'll take a look-see, but I ain't promising anything."


Even worse, the mechanic might fancy himself a super-mechanic and try to "fix" the drive anyway (shudder).

 

[JeffSandmeier]

Of the options you were considering, I would put the priorities in this order:

More airlocks (especially if you only have the single airlock that comes standard)

Auxillary bridge

More armor

I would also suggest cargo space for additional ammo storage, unless you have really huge autoloader magazines. Cargo space is also useful for specialized equipment for the boarding troops (a few sets of Battle Dress for those pirate bases, etc.)

 

[flykiller]

On a related note certainly I can't be the only one who likes to design ships across the whole TL and budget spectrum? Do most of you think (contrary to canon) that the only ships worth building have to be TL15 and never mind the budget?

for military ships, assuming CT and HG, tech 15 warships typically match three times their tonnage in tech 14 warships. the superiority ratio goes up rapidly as tech level declines. militarily, maximum tech is the only way to go. lower tech shipyards have lots of construction action in supply ships, hospital ships, tenders, troop transports, minesweepers, gigs, assault craft, and other such.

as for civilian vessels, consider the spinward marches - almost half of all class A shipyard space there is tech 15. how much of this is available to civilians is up to the game referee, but any significant fraction will result in a large volume of tech 15 civilian shipping, and given the size of the yards and their interest in the success of their product it would be reasonable to say that every major yard has in place a certified technician and shop on every marginally significant world.

as for military budgets, generally there is much more money than can reasonably be spent. budgets aren't the lmiting factor, shipyard capacity is. 'course that won't be true for civilians.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by flykiller:
for military ships, assuming CT and HG, tech 15 warships typically match three times their tonnage in tech 14 warships.

Not disputing this figure, just curious how its arrived at? Does it use the the TL credit balance (TCS I think) for one? I don't bother in most cases but some might argue it. Is it bang (USP to bear) for the buck (total credit built) or some other comparison?

Originally posted by flykiller:
...consider the spinward marches - almost half of all class A shipyard space there is tech 15.

Whoa there. What era is that? My well loved SM campaign book c1110 has only 4 of the 44 Type A Im ports as TL15. Most (a third) are TL11, and two of the Type A are actually only TL8! The bulk of construction in the c1110 SM is going to be TL11 and TL12. But then its just an example anyway.

Thanks for the points flykiller, by all means continue, it is enlightening.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by AaronKohura:
Of the options you were considering, I would put the priorities in this order:

More airlocks (especially if you only have the single airlock that comes standard)

Indeed that was the starting point and a major oversight in the first draft but I did notice it in the review. Right now its looking like up to 10 airlocks total for safe compartmentlization and evac/egress.

Originally posted by AaronKohura:
Auxillary bridge

Still chewing on this one, weighing the odds of the ship being a viable combatant by the time it takes a bridge knockout.

Originally posted by AaronKohura:
More armor

In another forum (I think) it was noted that I may already be more armored than CT/HG canon ships of its class. Not a bad thing, just not sure more armor buys enough to offset other possible considerations.

Originally posted by AaronKohura:
I would also suggest cargo space for additional ammo storage, unless you have really huge autoloader magazines. Cargo space is also useful for specialized equipment for the boarding troops (a few sets of Battle Dress for those pirate bases, etc.)

Good call. I was figuring (hoping) any leftover after the goodies would still provide enough cargo space for special missions, extended missions, etc. Have to wait and see. Second draft coming up shortly, well perhaps this weekend. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[flykiller]

Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by flykiller:
for military ships, assuming CT and HG, tech 15 warships typically match three times their tonnage in tech 14 warships.

Not disputing this figure, just curious how its arrived at?</font>[/QUOTE]someone on the tml mentioned their statistical analysis of tech level advantages showed that tech 15 had a three to one superiority over tech 14 (assuming CT HG meson guns). when I've run simulated battles between tech 15 and tech 14 fleets, both by hand and by computer, I've seen parity at about three to one. tech 13 fleets that oppose tech 15 fleets are almost swept aside. 'course this is all assuming HG, which is simplistic.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by flykiller:
...consider the spinward marches - almost half of all class A shipyard space there is tech 15.

Whoa there. What era is that?</font>[/QUOTE]all I have is the original little black books. by TCS population determines shipyard size. there are about 320 imperial planets in the spinward marches, but mora and trin alone account for 20% of the imperial population. many planets in the marches have populations too small or tech levels too low to produce any significant vessels, thus the tech 15 worlds (mora, trin, glisten, and rhylanor) have almost half the shipyard space.

this is, of course, all general and derived. a referee may up and rule differently.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by flykiller:
someone on the tml mentioned their statistical analysis of tech level advantages showed that tech 15 had a three to one superiority over tech 14 (assuming CT HG meson guns). when I've run simulated battles between tech 15 and tech 14 fleets, both by hand and by computer, I've seen parity at about three to one. tech 13 fleets that oppose tech 15 fleets are almost swept aside. 'course this is all assuming HG, which is simplistic.

I'll take your word for it. I've never done much in the way of full out tactical/wargame comparison though I've wanted to. What did you use for the computer run throughs?

Originally posted by flykiller:
all I have is the original little black books. by TCS population determines shipyard size. there are about 320 imperial planets in the spinward marches, but mora and trin alone account for 20% of the imperial population. many planets in the marches have populations too small or tech levels too low to produce any significant vessels, thus the tech 15 worlds (mora, trin, glisten, and rhylanor) have almost half the shipyard space.

this is, of course, all general and derived. a referee may up and rule differently.

Of course, but I see now I read too quickly and missed "space" in the first post. Makes sense now, you meant capacity and I was too blind and/or dense to see it, my bad.

PS I was watching the day you signed up as citizen number 1000 and figured you shoulda got some citation or something for bumping our pop digit

As a kind of belated award, for that and your posts I decided it was time for some stars, so BAM there ya go!

shucks I'd figured 5 would bring you up more than that, I can't figure out the math used and I've been trying now and then with my own fluctuating rating, oh well, its not terribly important in the scheme of things, catch ya later flykiller

 

[flykiller]

PS I was watching the day you signed up as citizen number 1000 and figured you shoulda got some citation or something for bumping our pop digit

As a kind of belated award, for that and your posts I decided it was time for some stars, so BAM there ya go!

(laugh) thanks!

the computer program was just something I wrote myself. it's not finished, but it answered the question I had and it wouldn't be too hard to complete if I get motivated.

 

[mad13142000]

Why airframe and not just streamlined - It seems like an awful amount of money for a ship that would probably never see the surface of a habitable planet during its lifetime...
That's the beauty of even small capital ships - They don't have to be designed in 2D to accomidate landing on a planetary surface...They can be designed openly to bring the most amount of big guns to bear on a given heading in 3D...

Just a thought
-MADDog

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by MADDog:
Why airframe and not just streamlined - It seems like an awful amount of money for a ship that would probably never see the surface of a habitable planet during its lifetime...
That's the beauty of even small capital ships - They don't have to be designed in 2D to accomidate landing on a planetary surface...They can be designed openly to bring the most amount of big guns to bear on a given heading in 3D...

Just a thought
-MADDog

Well its only about 1% of the final cost though it does suck up 150T that might be better used. I see its role as possibly including atmospheric operations, including gas giant lurking and fast attack strikes from within. Nothing like coming out of hiding with a couple turns of 6G burn

OK, the real reason

I started with a model kit which was at best streamlined, but I had some wings from another kit and well the thing just looks so cool and mean with them I had to go airframe

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />PS I was watching the day you signed up as citizen number 1000 and figured you shoulda got some citation or something for bumping our pop digit

As a kind of belated award, for that and your posts I decided it was time for some stars, so BAM there ya go!

(laugh) thanks!

the computer program was just something I wrote myself. it's not finished, but it answered the question I had and it wouldn't be too hard to complete if I get motivated. </font>[/QUOTE]

hmmm... so what does it take to get you motivated

any chance I could have a peak and play with it

drop me a line off channel at onechaos at yahoo dot com if you feel motivated and/or generous

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

I was reading a WW2 account of the Fairey Swordfish recon/anti-sub airplane that the brits used... How about a 50 ton bay with some recon ships berthed within? Always good to have a few extra sets of sensors on the walls, what?

 

[mark_rotteveel]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Greetings one and all gearheads and aspiring Naval Architects.

I was doing a little (long overdue, like decades

) spring cleaning and came across some old model kits. Well one of the kits inspired me so I started kitbashing it with a couple others and worked up a design to go with it (T20). Problem is, unlike most other designs I do, I have a considerable volume left I'm not sure what to do with. So I thought why not see what a few other bright minds might suggest. First a brief outline of the design thus far...

T20 TL-14 3,000T Destroyer Escort

Wedge Hull with Airframe upgrade

Factor 5 Hull Armor

Model 6fib Computer and electronics

Jump 3 (with fuel for 1J3)

Maneuver 6

Power 12 (4x Power 3)

Fuel scoops and Purifier 3

Nuke Damper F5

Meson Screen F5

PA Barbettes F2 x2 Batteries

Fusion Guns F6 x4 Batteries

Pulse Lasers F4 x2 Batteries

HE Missile Launchers F5 x2 Batteries

BP Laser Missile Launchers F4 x2 Batteries

Nuclear Missile Launchers F3 x2 Batteries

each missile turret has an adjacent autoloader magazine attached

Crew of 61 including 9 Ships Troops

Frozen Watch of 30

Two Sickbays

Two Engineering Shops


This leaves me with 173.0T to play with. I'm pondering some of:

Some additional Airlocks for evac and compartmentalization.

An auxilliary/backup bridge.

A Ship's Boat to serve in an away or life-boat capacity. Or perhaps more than one. Or maybe small (1T-3T) standardized personnel escape pods.

More armor. Almost always a good thing for a DE.

More Power. Currently there are choices to be made in the power allocation, keeping the engineers busy. You can power the maneuver and weapons but lose factors off the screens (imtu the factor is the max, lower the power and it moves down the table, just like if it were damaged). Or you can power the maneuver and agility but not fire weapons (I don't like the whole 'free' emergency agility rule, or the 'cheap' weapon overpower either. In both cases if the engineers can find the power to do it by diverting from other systems then ok, and for weapons each added level of power gets another shot at the same factor, but that's just mtu).

More Ship's Troops, but its more of a killer than a capture role so I'm not so sure.

The weapons are based on the model kit's attributes so I'll not be changing that. The nukes are in pop-up turrets which in my game mean they are immune to damage (though the magazines may still be hit), being exposed only briefly while they launch (hey that x5 and double volume better be worth something). Besides even The Navy doesn't want to advertise its nuke capability in every port.

One perhaps bizzare notion I had, inspired by the model, is increasing the Structural Integrity to give it an option for ramming with less risk to itself

Problem is I see no mention in the rules about increasing the SI in a design. I'm considering starting a thread to add it as an option to the communities house rules. It seems to me that adding armor should bump up the SI a bit too but the design system only factors the overall size (no doubt for simplicity). So what say you all, is there some interest is such added detail, or is it of too limited use?

OK, lets have it, the floor is yours, what would you do to fill out the extra volume?

 

[mark_rotteveel]

Sorry about that last message. Hit the send to quickly.

Call me old fashioned, but i Always end up coming back to the 'you can never have too much food on my ship, thank you'.

I suppose also you could increase ECM and Commo ability? I was in the Royal Australian Navy for a while (back many many years ago, and served on one of our DE's. Their main job was Anti-Sub Warfare, and of course, escort of Civilian shipping. I guess a DE is a DE, whether it be TL8 or TL15. Ife the ship is for interception duties, bump up the ECM, and if for escort duties bump up the Commo (there's a whole bunch of comms networks needed for any convoy work).

But don't forget the food. A well fed sailor is a happy one.