Proto-Traveller: Barbarians of the Regina Subsector

[Jeffr0]

Kang presents a bit of a problem... a dry world with moderate pop... low-tech, charismatic oligarchy and extremely high law.

We can make up for the small size of the world by having exceedingly tall cactus plants that our barbarians swing through and so forth. Stealing a thought from Foster's Midworld, we can have different ecologies depending on the altitude.

But how do we justify the exceedingly high law levels?

How can that be rationalized?

 

[Jeffr0]

Kang presents a bit of a problem... a dry world with moderate pop... low-tech, charismatic oligarchy and extremely high law.

We can make up for the small size of the world by having exceedingly tall cactus plants that our barbarians swing through and so forth. Stealing a thought from Foster's Midworld, we can have different ecologies depending on the altitude.

But how do we justify the exceedingly high law levels?

How can that be rationalized?

 

[robject]

Charismatic Oligarchy, of course, meaning "a few kings" who exercise power like... well, like kings.

It's hard to enforce, but maybe it's a system where the peasants have little but are protected by the cavalry, who are led by a council of chieftain-kings. Something like that. Maybe they're warlike, and rule through power and conquest. Conan-type stuff.

Alternately, since this is a dry world, perhaps it's something like the Egyptians, where the rulers are also the Canal Keepers -- and own all the water rights. So an administrative/priestly caste manage everything, and rulership falls on the Council. Again that council thing, but you get my drift.

 

[robject]

Charismatic Oligarchy, of course, meaning "a few kings" who exercise power like... well, like kings.

It's hard to enforce, but maybe it's a system where the peasants have little but are protected by the cavalry, who are led by a council of chieftain-kings. Something like that. Maybe they're warlike, and rule through power and conquest. Conan-type stuff.

Alternately, since this is a dry world, perhaps it's something like the Egyptians, where the rulers are also the Canal Keepers -- and own all the water rights. So an administrative/priestly caste manage everything, and rulership falls on the Council. Again that council thing, but you get my drift.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

As long as there's loyalty among the enforcers, it's easy to have a high law level with an oligarchy or monarchy.

What's with the comment about swinging through the cactii, though? Barsoom is a dry world, and its barbarians did very nicely, thank you. And, if you disagree, I have a barbarian friend (and her green, six-armed buddy) with a large radium pistol who would like to "talk" with you....

 

[Fritz_Brown]

As long as there's loyalty among the enforcers, it's easy to have a high law level with an oligarchy or monarchy.

What's with the comment about swinging through the cactii, though? Barsoom is a dry world, and its barbarians did very nicely, thank you. And, if you disagree, I have a barbarian friend (and her green, six-armed buddy) with a large radium pistol who would like to "talk" with you....

 

[Antaine]

If I may be as bold to offer a comment.

High law levels existed within the Pre-Christian Celtic Nations....most of what we know comes from the Irish and Scots (who really are Irish anyway but that's for a different forum
). The Celts were viewed by "civilised" nations i.e Rome et al as "Barbarians" with no culture because their culture was totally alien to the idea of a civilisation based on bricks and mortar.

The Celts were fierce, easliy aroused to war, barbaric (by gentle folk standards...they were head hunters) and extremely independant but an extremely rigid stratafied society...aka High Law Level.

*Shrugs* works for me, YMMV.

Sláinte (Your Health)

Antaine

 

[Antaine]

If I may be as bold to offer a comment.

High law levels existed within the Pre-Christian Celtic Nations....most of what we know comes from the Irish and Scots (who really are Irish anyway but that's for a different forum
). The Celts were viewed by "civilised" nations i.e Rome et al as "Barbarians" with no culture because their culture was totally alien to the idea of a civilisation based on bricks and mortar.

The Celts were fierce, easliy aroused to war, barbaric (by gentle folk standards...they were head hunters) and extremely independant but an extremely rigid stratafied society...aka High Law Level.

*Shrugs* works for me, YMMV.

Sláinte (Your Health)

Antaine

 

[Fritz_Brown]

However, Antaine, "by Traveller definitions" they weren't that high LL, as weapons were allowed to be carried openly AND concealed (skean dhu!) in many cases. That is a by-product of the early Traveller obsession with where you can openly cart your FGMP-15 around....

 

[Fritz_Brown]

However, Antaine, "by Traveller definitions" they weren't that high LL, as weapons were allowed to be carried openly AND concealed (skean dhu!) in many cases. That is a by-product of the early Traveller obsession with where you can openly cart your FGMP-15 around....

 

[Antaine]

Actually, weapons were allowed to be carried both openly and concealed because the law was so strict. Even the last Ard Ri (High King) of Eiré, Brian Boru, (progenitor of todays O'Briens) had to pay a 'fine' to a clann for the killing of a clansman.

You also had the fact that weapons to the Celts were/are held in the same light as the Japanese although rather than housing the soul of the warrior, they have their own 'spirit'.

They were not drawn/used willy nilly and even Celtic Warfare was highly ritualised with Champions demonstrating their repetiore<sp?> of battle skills rather than a full blown attack. If one Champion was noticably superior in skill, then often as not this display alone was enough to decide the fate of the battle with the less skilled Champion conceding before blood was actually spilt.

This was a highly stratified society governed by intricate laws and ritual and with a wee bit of tweaking would fit 'Kang'.

Even with today's laws in New South Wales, Australia on carriage of edged weapons....it is illegal to be in possession of a blade/knife in public....the carriage of hidden blades on religious grounds is legal.

The Sgian Dubhs can have no religious connotation attached to it and "cultural" reasons are frowned upon as a reason to carry any sort of weapon in todays' modern society.

To summarise, I believe the argument can be made that the Traveller LL can be seen to be 'relative'. If we are talking about "proto-traveller".....let's assume that the survey results (UWP) can be seen as the LL within a local society rather than the Imp standard....or at least leave it open to interpretation.

I, as always, am expressing an opinion as far as the TU goes and YMMV IYTU.

Sláinte (Your Health)

 

[Antaine]

Actually, weapons were allowed to be carried both openly and concealed because the law was so strict. Even the last Ard Ri (High King) of Eiré, Brian Boru, (progenitor of todays O'Briens) had to pay a 'fine' to a clann for the killing of a clansman.

You also had the fact that weapons to the Celts were/are held in the same light as the Japanese although rather than housing the soul of the warrior, they have their own 'spirit'.

They were not drawn/used willy nilly and even Celtic Warfare was highly ritualised with Champions demonstrating their repetiore<sp?> of battle skills rather than a full blown attack. If one Champion was noticably superior in skill, then often as not this display alone was enough to decide the fate of the battle with the less skilled Champion conceding before blood was actually spilt.

This was a highly stratified society governed by intricate laws and ritual and with a wee bit of tweaking would fit 'Kang'.

Even with today's laws in New South Wales, Australia on carriage of edged weapons....it is illegal to be in possession of a blade/knife in public....the carriage of hidden blades on religious grounds is legal.

The Sgian Dubhs can have no religious connotation attached to it and "cultural" reasons are frowned upon as a reason to carry any sort of weapon in todays' modern society.

To summarise, I believe the argument can be made that the Traveller LL can be seen to be 'relative'. If we are talking about "proto-traveller".....let's assume that the survey results (UWP) can be seen as the LL within a local society rather than the Imp standard....or at least leave it open to interpretation.

I, as always, am expressing an opinion as far as the TU goes and YMMV IYTU.

Sláinte (Your Health)

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Well, Antaine, my point was simply that Traveller LLs seemed to be primarily oriented on weapon-carrying (and a few other things), and not on rigidity of the society.

Really, it's akin to some of the bits in things like the US' DoD Foreign Clearance Guide and the State Department overseas travel advisories: "This would be a really bad place to decide to smuggle drugs or guns." Other bits talk about social mores, societal structure, etc., but a lot of folks go immediately to the "How tough is this place" sections.

And, we are back to arguing that the UWP is inadequate for a full description....

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Well, Antaine, my point was simply that Traveller LLs seemed to be primarily oriented on weapon-carrying (and a few other things), and not on rigidity of the society.

Really, it's akin to some of the bits in things like the US' DoD Foreign Clearance Guide and the State Department overseas travel advisories: "This would be a really bad place to decide to smuggle drugs or guns." Other bits talk about social mores, societal structure, etc., but a lot of folks go immediately to the "How tough is this place" sections.

And, we are back to arguing that the UWP is inadequate for a full description....

 

[Antaine]

No argument from me Fritz at all. I simply sought to demonstrate that with a bit of imagination you could tweak real life situations to fit.

I tend to look at things slightly different. For me the glass is neither half full or half empty.....the glass was simply the wrong size.

When I read High LL in a UWP, I tend to think of a highly rigid/codefied society within whatever Govt. model is described. The higher our own TL gets and the higher our local LL gets, more rigid our own society is becomming.

Maybe not true in your corner of the world, but certainly in the so called "democracy" that is Australia.

My point was not to argue, but to present what I consider a viable alternative for considering the challenge. I've never considered the UWP adequate for a full description...I've always considered it as a seed for my imagination....so peace?

As an interesting aside (well I find it so), some of our 'common law' in the UK, colonies and former colonies are based upon the Irish Brehon Laws and have survived relatively intact since before Christ.

Sláinte (Your Health)

 

[Antaine]

No argument from me Fritz at all. I simply sought to demonstrate that with a bit of imagination you could tweak real life situations to fit.

I tend to look at things slightly different. For me the glass is neither half full or half empty.....the glass was simply the wrong size.

When I read High LL in a UWP, I tend to think of a highly rigid/codefied society within whatever Govt. model is described. The higher our own TL gets and the higher our local LL gets, more rigid our own society is becomming.

Maybe not true in your corner of the world, but certainly in the so called "democracy" that is Australia.

My point was not to argue, but to present what I consider a viable alternative for considering the challenge. I've never considered the UWP adequate for a full description...I've always considered it as a seed for my imagination....so peace?

As an interesting aside (well I find it so), some of our 'common law' in the UK, colonies and former colonies are based upon the Irish Brehon Laws and have survived relatively intact since before Christ.

Sláinte (Your Health)

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Oh, Antaine, no worries - just making sure we know where each is coming from.

And, I think the UWP was never intended to be all inclusive. So many planets, though, and so little time... many folks just wanted something a little more telling if they had to go with nothing but a UWP when the players went hareing off....

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Oh, Antaine, no worries - just making sure we know where each is coming from.

And, I think the UWP was never intended to be all inclusive. So many planets, though, and so little time... many folks just wanted something a little more telling if they had to go with nothing but a UWP when the players went hareing off....

 

[Antaine]

I agree Fritz...never was it meant to be all encompassing...although with players 'hareing' off there was always fun to be had

I always thought the reference to LL and how it affected "guns" was a simple ploy to try and prevent 'munchkinism' as a legitimate problem solving ploy. Problem it caused though was those would be munchkins focused on the LL through the weapons rather than use the reference as a general guide as to how a society may look at any given LL.........

Ahh if only I had a couple of players to practise on knowing what I know now

Sláinte (Your Health)

 

[Antaine]

I agree Fritz...never was it meant to be all encompassing...although with players 'hareing' off there was always fun to be had

I always thought the reference to LL and how it affected "guns" was a simple ploy to try and prevent 'munchkinism' as a legitimate problem solving ploy. Problem it caused though was those would be munchkins focused on the LL through the weapons rather than use the reference as a general guide as to how a society may look at any given LL.........

Ahh if only I had a couple of players to practise on knowing what I know now

Sláinte (Your Health)