Question of Rules: Laser Sight (TL8)

[MCutter]

Hello
I have a question about the laser sight.

One rule says you have to aim to get +1 and the
other rule says you get the +1 without aiming but only in short distance.

What rule should I apply ?

A device giving +1 without "advance payment" seems unballanced to me.
I really would like to reward my player with "magical-devices-giving-bonus-anywhere-anytime", that can not be bought at the local Laser Sight Store.

What would you advise ?

Best
MCutter

Main Rule Book p.102:
Laser Sight (TL8 ): Integrated optics and laser sights give an extra
+1 DM bonus to any attack that has been aimed (see page 61 for
the aim action). Cr 100. At TL 10, x-ray lasers and improved display
technology removes the tell-tale ‘red dot’ of a vislight laser. Cr 200.

Central Supply Catalog p.54:
Laser Sight (TL8 ): A laser dot pointer can be fitted to most weapons.
It is not useful beyond Short range but at Close or Short range it
grants a +1 DM on all hit rolls. Cr. 200, negligible weight. At TL
10, the use of more advanced optics eliminates the beam-and-dot
signature of the basic laser, at no increase in cost.

 

[McPerth]

Well, a +1 extra modifier for a laser sight assistement on an aimed shoot doesn't seem me too large a benefit, and about the fact that being without 'advance payment', most of thech aids are.

Aside of that,

A laser dot pointer can be fitted to most weapons.
It is not useful beyond Short range but at Close or Short range it
grants a +1 DM on all hit rolls

(emphasis is mine) how many aimed shoots may be done at such short a distance (up to 12 meters)? I'm not an expert in military matters (while I have some theoretical knowledge as a wargamer, my practical experience is nil), but I guess in such close quarters most shoots will be snapshoots, and so the laser sight seems to me quite less useful that in our RW.

 

[CosmicGamer]

One rule says you have to aim to get +1 and the
other rule says you get the +1 without aiming but only in short distance.

What rule should I apply ?

Both. There are situations where each applies. I wouldn't allow both DMs at the same time.

Main Rule Book p.102:
Laser Sight (TL8 ): Integrated optics and laser sights give an extra
+1 DM bonus to any attack that has been aimed (see page 61 for
the aim action). Cr 100. At TL 10, x-ray lasers and improved display
technology removes the tell-tale ‘red dot’ of a vislight laser. Cr 200.

It says 'Integrated optics and laser sights'. With this one It appears you have to be looking through the 'scope'. If not aiming, like holding an uzi at chest level instead of eye level and letting loose a spray of bullets, there is no bonus because you are not looking through the scope.

Central Supply Catalog p.54:
Laser Sight (TL8 ): A laser dot pointer can be fitted to most weapons.
It is not useful beyond Short range but at Close or Short range it
grants a +1 DM on all hit rolls. Cr. 200, negligible weight. At TL
10, the use of more advanced optics eliminates the beam-and-dot
signature of the basic laser, at no increase in cost.

As McPerth said. This dot makes a short range snapshot easier, you just need to pull the trigger when the dot is on your target.

A typical laser pointer mounted to the barrel might give a -DM at longer ranges since it will still point straight and not compensate for wind, distance, gravity, atmospheric density, and so on. The integrated one allows for the laser to be adjusted with the sight (part of aiming).

 

[HiverLord]

In addition to the comments already made, one major difference between integral sights and just adding a laser pointer:

-The laser for the integral sights only appears while the trigger is slightly depressed (at least in most models I am aware of);
-The laser pointer is either 'on or off', i.e., the user would have to reach out and turn it on or off as needed - potentially a big problem in a 'snap combat' situation. If left on continually, it will drain the battery faster (not a big deal, really, unless they are in a LOT of combats), as well as potentially give the user's position away to enemy combatants in the area (sniper's, anyone?)

Of course, someone adding on a laser pointer could try and add some sort of wiring to the stock, in order to add a switch. But this brings in more potential problems... 1-The wire could easily snag on other items (branches, fingers, other gear, etc) and/or 2-doing damage to their weapon...

Just some thoughts.

 

[kaladorn]

Different sights, different purposes

They are both described as 'laser sights' and probably accurate in a sense, but I think these are actually two devices.

Device one is a red-dot laser sight (although the dot can be emitted from a 'laser diode' that only shows up in IR spectrum). It's purpose it to quickly and naturally show you where your gun is pointed at ranges where the shooting will be fast, furious, and done by the natural pointing character of the weapon.

A friend (US SF, 17 yrs, ret) told me they do not even hew to the old mantra 'front sight, front sight, by God front sight' which is what a lot of shooters learn for closer shots, but instead just rely on body posture and the natural pointing character of the weapon. They do this because, doing room entry and CQB, you do not have the luxury of even letting the eye focus on the front sight. And you are close enough the natural pointing character of the weapon should suffice.

So, the red-dot style laser marking site is a good way to get a quick +1 in close quartes battle. However, it really is useless beyond short range. And if you leave it in 'always on mode' (some let you do so), then you can be spotted. Most have half-squeeze on the trigger activating them (just before the shot).

The other style of laser sight may be an optical sight with laser ranging built in or an optical sight that can observe a laser point on the target (in visible, or again possibly IR, spectrum). This is more of a marksmanship too. Some powerful laser pointers are visible for literally hundreds of meters (maybe further) with optics. On the other hand, you probably have to either have an adaptive sight that compensates for range or else you have to know where your laser is zero'd. The laser will be straight line but your bullet will be taking a ballistic course. At or near the range you zero it (or if your sighting system compensates or if you have plenty of experience with the weapon in any event), you ought to gain a benefit from it. Again, it can backtrack to locate you, but it also can be only on shortly before the shot.

Unlike the other case, you want aim here. If you don't aim, no benefit. In fact, I'd say if you aren't familiar with the weapon and where it is zeroed, no benefit. If you do aim and are familiar with the weapon, you should get the listed benefit.

Most sights should not provide a benefit (even a detriment is fair in many cases) if not zeroed properly. It surprised me even in the military how few shooters understood how to properly zero a rifle sight. And if you pickup an unfamiliar rifle with an unfamiliar sighting zero (or no zero), you might even be justified in having a penalty for the first couple of fire actions (-2, then -1, then 0 as you figure it out).

I had trouble hitting much with my friends 9mm M1911 recently. It was only after the shoot that he tells me he pulls up and right, so he had the sight compensating left and low... and I assumed it was dead center so no wonder I wasn't getting the shots I wanted....

If someone was really cruel, they might say poorly or non-sighted in weapons actually increase difficulty substantially until time is taken to sight them in out of combat. Real life seems to demonstrate this is the case.

 

[aramis]

Having used laser pointer & open iron sights at ranges to about 15m, they're great for aimed shots if they're zeroed right. Rough aim, half-squeeze, if spot the dot on target, squeeze.

I've never fired a weapon with a scope on...

 

[saundby]

Scopes vary a lot. At my old house I had a range in the backyard where I practiced for competition. I often zeroed in scopes on my friend's rifles there, so I got to work with a lot of different things.

My personal favorite is low power (4 to 6x) wide field scopes mounted so that the iron sights are still usable. Though I prefer ghost ring sights even over that for anything up to 200m.

Most scopes sold have too much magnification, too narrow a field, IMO, and mount so as to block the iron sights.

 

[Dragoner]

A 4x scope is a nice addition to any rifle esp. for low light work (dawn & twilight).

As per the op, I think they are talking a frame mounted pointer type sight on a pistol of which:

One rule says you have to aim to get +1 and the
other rule says you get the +1 without aiming but only in short distance.

the second rule is most realistic. Laser sights like that only really help with point shooting (shooting from the hip) and even then it would be first shot only. Aiming the pistol through it's sights usually negates the effect of having the laser sight, even then with muzzle flip, the barrel cycling through battery, accuracy falls considerably.

 

[McPerth]

And what about the laser pointer most often seen in the films or TV series? The one used by snipers to paint the target before firing?

As I have no experience in shooting, which is the optimal distance for them, and how they should be used in the rules? Maybe the first rule (on the Core Book, the one saying they give you a +1 for aimed shoots) talks about them, while the second rule (up to short distance for snapshoots) is about the ones Dragoner says?

 

[Dragoner]

I would ignore films and tv, myself, as they are unrealistic, but this is a judgement call by the GM.

 

[kaladorn]

I think a laser pointer used in conjunction with appropriate optics (say an IR laser diode and an IR sight) will work out to maybe 200m. Beyond that, I'd think not so much. And your sight will only (well, who knows with very high tech sights) be zeroed at one range, likely 100m.

The sight for pistols should probably just give you the bonus and only if you don't aim. It's an aid to natural point and shoot.

I also think saundby has it right. One thing games rarely captue is loss of SA (situational awareness) that optics can create. If you are focused through the narrow view of optics, you can lose a wider view of what is happening that you should be aware of.

Optics also can be dodgy in partly cloudy days as your position goes in and out of sun. The British sight on the SA-80 is bad for that. It's almost worse than shooting with iron sights in those sorts of conditions.

Having a wide field of view and a reasonable magnification (I like the 3-7x scope with a decent field of view) is the way to go for anything but very long distance shooting. At that point, you are kind of forced to go narrow field of view and high magnification.

There's also so much difference with range shooting and real shooting. And shooting in reaction of CQB vs. shooting from a position in ambush with some range in your favour and adequate cover.

I'd go for the +1, no aim, only shorter range bands for the pistol laser sight. The rifle laser sight can be one that operates like this or can be combined with optics to yield an aim-based benefit up to about 200-250m.

 

[aramis]

And what about the laser pointer most often seen in the films or TV series? The one used by snipers to paint the target before firing?

As I have no experience in shooting, which is the optimal distance for them, and how they should be used in the rules? Maybe the first rule (on the Core Book, the one saying they give you a +1 for aimed shoots) talks about them, while the second rule (up to short distance for snapshoots) is about the ones Dragoner says?

I can say they work find out to 15-20m. That's as far as I've shot with one.

I do know that there is an issue with spot size climbing over distance, and one bright enough for 50m is about 10x brighter than one only good to 15m.

I've always treated both rules as two different uses for the same tool
Point shoot out to 5m per the rules (but I've done so to 7m-8m)
or aimed shot from 5m out...

 

[Peter Newman]

I can say they work find out to 15-20m. That's as far as I've shot with one.

I do know that there is an issue with spot size climbing over distance, and one bright enough for 50m is about 10x brighter than one only good to 15m.

I've always treated both rules as two different uses for the same tool
Point shoot out to 5m per the rules (but I've done so to 7m-8m)
or aimed shot from 5m out...

How would you adjust the scopes effective in atmospheres other than type 6?

It seems as if some tainted (2, 5, 7, 9) atmospheres would diminish or eliminate the benefits of the laser sight as would some unusual (A, B, C) atmospheric mixes. It would depend on the nature of the taint of course. You could either determine the nature of the taint and then rule on its effects or just roll randomly to see if it had an effect and then determine the nature of the taint from that.

What about atmospheric density? How much of the laser scopes effectiveness is due to the dot on the target and how much is due to a visible beam path through the air? It seems as if the dot should be brighter in thinner air because of less attenuation, but the beam path should be brighter in thicker air.

What about variations in ambient light levels?

 

[aramis]

How would you adjust the scopes effective in atmospheres other than type 6?

It seems as if some tainted (2, 5, 7, 9) atmospheres would diminish or eliminate the benefits of the laser sight as would some unusual (A, B, C) atmospheric mixes. It would depend on the nature of the taint of course. You could either determine the nature of the taint and then rule on its effects or just roll randomly to see if it had an effect and then determine the nature of the taint from that.

What about atmospheric density? How much of the laser scopes effectiveness is due to the dot on the target and how much is due to a visible beam path through the air? It seems as if the dot should be brighter in thinner air because of less attenuation, but the beam path should be brighter in thicker air.

What about variations in ambient light levels?

99% of the utility is spot on the target. the beam really isn't visible. And you do NOT want it visible.

Dust, smoke: not only do they instantly reveal the firer by back-trace along the beam, they cut the spot visibility by twice – diffusion to targets and back from the target.

When using it for aimed shots, bright light is going to be a problem...

 

[kaladorn]

How would you adjust the scopes effective in atmospheres other than type 6?

It seems as if some tainted (2, 5, 7, 9) atmospheres would diminish or eliminate the benefits of the laser sight as would some unusual (A, B, C) atmospheric mixes. It would depend on the nature of the taint of course. You could either determine the nature of the taint and then rule on its effects or just roll randomly to see if it had an effect and then determine the nature of the taint from that.

What about atmospheric density? How much of the laser scopes effectiveness is due to the dot on the target and how much is due to a visible beam path through the air? It seems as if the dot should be brighter in thinner air because of less attenuation, but the beam path should be brighter in thicker air.

What about variations in ambient light levels?

It's the dot that matters, not the beam path at all.

Dusk or dark makes the dot easier to see, bright sunlight harder, variable light is just a pain period.

Tainted atmo or other atmo may scatter the beam prematurely reducing effective range. Denser atmo may do the same, thinner may let it project further (but you will need optics to see it if it has longer range, which you may anyway).

Gravity is interesting too. It has no effect on the laser but will affect a slug projectile. So a High G world or Low G world will exhibit different ballistic paths for slugs. This means a sight zeroes for a Standard G world will be off. [Lesson: Zero your sights on the world in question.] (Note, this also applies to zero G vs. Standard G).

Now, at some TL, maybe say TL12-13, the sights might be able to compensate themselves for atmo density and Gs. They can't do much about taint or atmo type.

Here's another point: One suspects every laser rifle that can vary its power should be able to act as if it had laser sights - a partial squeeze gives you your spotting beam, then full squeeze delivers the real pain. Chemical Lasers that may have to fire at fixed intensity may not have this property. But they could be equiped with a laser sight one imagines.

Then again, lasers should be fairly accurate (not counting target movement) because they should feature little to no shot drop (scattering yes, reduction in penetration, maybe, but no shot drop).

 

[Strummist]

I have a family member who is a laser scientist who works for the Ministry of Defence. Whenever snipers with laser pointers are shown on TV, he gigggles to himself, but won't tell us why.