Questions about Risek(Rhylanor, SM) Nobility

[Commander Truestar]

Hi All,

I have read a lot of stuff adn som of it blends and some does not so I figured I'd ask here...

Specifically referring to the Risek system(Small, likely very cold, rock adn ice ball with a booming interstellar "pass through" trade market that holds the keys to backpinning the defense of the Aramis and Regina systems). While some feel that this frozen rock, who's small-ish population mostly live in space arcologies) does not warrant more than a Baron(ess), I fel it important enough for a Marquis. But, stuck as I am at work, with a hankering to do some writing for MTU, I was wondering if anyone has seen any canon references to the Nobility in that system?

I know that there are references to the new X-Boat route that is projected to run through and use the Risek system. And that alone suggests some significant lobby forces supporting the system. But I have not found any reference to the rulership or even Knights or lesser nobility there.

So has anyone heard of any canon commentary about ther ebeign a Marquis(Marchoness) vs a Baron(ess)?

If not, what are your opinions? What kind of brake down of nobility would you see there IYTU?

Thanks in advance

Marc

 

[razzerdk]

Specifically referring to the Risek system(Small, likely very cold, rock and ice ball with a booming interstellar "pass through" trade market that holds the keys to backpinning the defense of the Aramis and Regina systems). While some feel that this frozen rock, who's small-ish population mostly live in space arcologies) does not warrant more than a Baron(ess), I feel it important enough for a Marquis. But, stuck as I am at work, with a hankering to do some writing for MTU, I was wondering if anyone has seen any canon references to the Nobility in that system?

The only nobles for the Duchy of Rhylanor that I can recall are the Duke and his brother, Count Knowln of Celepina, and Marquis Leonard of Aramis (Yes, the Aramis Trace is part of the Duchy of Rhylanor). I can't agree that a world with 420,000 inhabitants would automatically rate a marquis, but that merely means that if it has one, it's an Unusual Circumstance and deserves an explicit explanation (just as a count of a world like Celepina with a population of 32,000 cries out for an explanation, but have we ever been vouchsafed one? We have not!). Leonard of Aramis is probably a marquis instead of a baron because he's the actual chief executive of Aramis (blending the role of Imperial noble with the role of planetary leader)

Actually, I'd say a world with almost half a million inhabitants, a decent tech level, and enough traffic to support a Class A starport hovers on the edge and might well have a marquis. Much would depend on the neighboring worlds and the history of Risek.

I know that there are references to the new X-Boat route that is projected to run through and use the Risek system. And that alone suggests some significant lobby forces supporting the system. But I have not found any reference to the rulership or even Knights or lesser nobility there.

The Spinward Marches alone require a couple of hundred Imperial nobles (less an unknown number of cases where one noble have two worlds under him (e.g. Norris is Marquis of Regina na Baron of Yori, Leonard is Marquis of Aramis and Baron of Lewis) and we've heard of perhaps a score of them. Risek's noble is not among them.

If not, what are your opinions? What kind of brake down of nobility would you see there IYTU?

I wouldn't see anything wrong with either a baron or a marquis.


Hans

 

[Commander Truestar]

"...I can't agree that a world with 420,000 inhabitants would automatically rate a marquis,

Hans

Actually, I do not think in lines of population rather importance.
And I degrade further as the world has a pop figure of '5' which is a population in the tens of thousands. So either the print claim to 420,000 is wrong or the population multiplyer of 5 is wrong I am taking the 5 from GDW printed items.

But, as I said, I do not so much care about population but importance. In that vien I see Risek as a main staging base for two of the most important fronts in the Spinward Marches. As the forward defenses are tested, Rhylanor must remain above the fray so bases such as the Risek Naval base become the forward command of the main couter assault. Combine that with the trade importance of getting supplies and god to the fronteir and to Vargr ports to make more "friends"...

Marc

 

[razzerdk]

Actually, I do not think in lines of population rather importance.

Not alone, no. But there's a strong correlation between population size and economic strength, and econimic strength is one very big source of importance.

And I degrade further as the world has a pop figure of '5' which is a population in the tens of thousands. So either the print claim to 420,000 is wrong or the population multiplyer of 5 is wrong I am taking the 5 from GDW printed items.

A population level of 5 means that the number has five zeros following the initial digit, so the population is between 100,000 and 999,999. The population multiplier of 4 means the first digit is 4, so the population is between 400,000 and 499,999. The population figure printed in BtC is 42,000, but errata'ed on the SJG website to 420,000.

But, as I said, I do not so much care about population but importance. In that view I see Risek as a main staging base for two of the most important fronts in the Spinward Marches. As the forward defenses are tested, Rhylanor must remain above the fray so bases such as the Risek Naval base become the forward command of the main counter assault. Combine that with the trade importance of getting supplies and god to the frontier and to Vargr ports to make more "friends"...

I haven't analysed the astrography of the region, but a casual examination would seem to indicate that the naval bases at Inthe and Aramis are more likely to be the staging areas for defense of respectively Regina and Aramis. The shipyard facilities of Risek are described in BtC as high-quality, but small. That's another thing that's correlated to population size: shipyard size. Even if the facilities on Risek are 100 times bigger than the average for its population, they would still be smaller than the yards at Inthe. Besides, I see Imperial nobility going more by social importance than strategic importance.

Incidentally, the Towers Cluster is more likely to get its reinforcements from the naval base at Pretoria than from Risek. Pretoria is one jump away from Junidy, whereas Risek is three jumps away by courier and four by jump-4 cruisers and battleships.


Hans

 

[Commander Truestar]

Not alone, no. But there's a strong correlation between population size and economic strength, and econimic strength is one very big source of importance.

I do agree with that as a basic starting point but High pop worlds can also be of very low importance. Efate is only important due to its location and many of the early TAS News feeds from GDW suggested that the political, Noble and military authorities would prefer not having to deal with the system's issues.

A population level of 5 means that the number has five zeros following the initial digit, so the population is between 100,000 and 999,999.

Hmm, may be time for me to do a re-read and see where my mind has wandered...

I haven't analysed the astrography of the region, but a casual examination would seem to indicate that the naval bases at Inthe and Aramis are more likely to be the staging areas for defense of respectively Regina and Aramis.

Here I disagree because both the regina and Aramis systems are more likely to be front line systems if not(as happened to Regina in the FFW) over-run and by passed with a beseiging force left to attempt a forced submission. In addition, the possability of a broader Vargr involvement would pin units in place in Pretoria either just in case or responding to things along the Deneb Sector's coreware edge. So reinforcements would feed coreward where spinward concerns were not a factor(Zo forces from Foreven Sector and Sword Worlders not to mention privateers from Trexalon/Dist 268). These forces would feed coreward and need regionally local staging bases. For this purpose, Risek is perfect to feed forces into the Aramis region or strike coreward between Embattled Regina and front line Aramis.

The small shipyards are only a factor in reparing major damage to capital ships, but that fits well with a postential role for Risek.
op-1: Staging forces arrive to be fed out from Risek
op-2: capital ships with heavy damage are sent back toward Rhylanor for significant repairs and Capital ships with monor damage as well as most escorts are repaired at Risek with supplies being convoyed in from higher tech parts production in other systems.
op-3: in the event of a massive breach of Imperial lines, Risek's roles in op-1(see above) would make it a location where significant forces could defend against second stage invasions(thinking along the lines of the German invasion of Russia in WWII).

At least, that is how I see Imperial strategy IMTU.
But what you have said could be just as valid since Aramis was not significantly effected in the FFW, due to the failure of the Vargr fleets to be significantly effective at all. add to that an almost complete focus on the Spinward Marches(some anicdotial references were made-IIRC- about raiding in the Deneb Sector. And I do grant that many nobles are social in nature, but my point is that this would be a key world defensively and would, IMHO, be worthy of posting a Marquise.

I could be wrong though. at the least, I ahve to revisit the UWP population charts

Marc

 

[rancke]

Note: That was me, indavertently answering from my nephew's account razzerdk (short, boring story).

Efate is only important due to its location and many of the early TAS News feeds from GDW suggested that the political, Noble and military authorities would prefer not having to deal with the system's issues.

Efate has a bigger population and higher tech level than Regina. The only reason it 'only' rates a count is historical accident.

Here I disagree because both the Regina and Aramis systems are more likely to be front line systems...

Regina and Efate lies behind the systems in Jewell subsector when it comes to the big threat, a Zhodani invasion. Inthe lies behind Regina and Efate. And Inthe has a much bigger infrastructure than Risek.

...if not (as happened to Regina in the FFW) over-run and by passed with a beseiging force left to attempt a forced submission.

The erroneous statements in BtC to the contrary notwithstanding, the Zhodani didn't get past Efate and the preponderance of evidence suggests that the Zhodani never made it to Regina (except possibly for some hit and run attacks). The descrition of the war in The Spinward Marches Campaign shows that clearly.

In addition, the possibility of a broader Vargr involvement would pin units in place in Pretoria either just in case or responding to things along the Deneb Sector's coreware edge.

You must have information about Vargr forces and politics in Tuglikki Sector that is unavailable to the rest of us. There's not a shred of evidence to suggest that there would be enough threat from Vargr forces to Deneb Sector that the subsector fleets wouldn't be more than enough to contain them. Certainly the two Vargr fleets that attacked through the Heya Cluster were singularily slow and ineffective, dawdling long enough for the 212th to move up from Rhylanor to oppose them at Beck's World, keep them at bay, and eventually to defeat them.

So reinforcements would feed coreward where spinward concerns were not a factor(Zo forces from Foreven Sector and Sword Worlders not to mention privateers from Trexalon/Dist 268). These forces would feed coreward and need regionally local staging bases. For this purpose, Risek is perfect to feed forces into the Aramis region or strike coreward between Embattled Regina and front line Aramis.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here. Zho forces from Foreven would have been opposed by the fleet in Five Sisters and the Darrians. The forces that opposed the Sword Worlders are spelled out in SMC, and the 214th had District 268 under firm control throughout the war.

The small shipyards are only a factor in reparing major damage to capital ships, but that fits well with a postential role for Risek.

If "reality" is anywhere close to the rules for repairs in TCS (which might, of course, not be the case), a ship being repaired ties up its full tonnage while it is being repaired. The repairs are just done faster than building new ships.

op-1: Staging forces arrive to be fed out from Risek
op-2: capital ships with heavy damage are sent back toward Rhylanor for significant repairs and Capital ships with monor damage as well as most escorts are repaired at Risek with supplies being convoyed in from higher tech parts production in other systems.
op-3: in the event of a massive breach of Imperial lines, Risek's roles in op-1(see above) would make it a location where significant forces could defend against second stage invasions(thinking along the lines of the German invasion of Russia in WWII).

Why send ships back any further than absolutely necessary t get them repaired? There are the shipyards at Regina and at Inthe to fill up before those at Risek would come into play -- assuming for purposes of argument that Risek has the capacity to handle them.

At least, that is how I see Imperial strategy IMTU.

Oh, as far as YTU is concerned, I wouldn't dream of contradicting you.


Hans

 

[Maccat]

IYTU whatever you want, here what with the whole mongoose and only do foreven thing as I see it. That aside...

Risek A3255790-A N
Interesting that it has a naval base, no scout base but is an xboat stop (xboat tender then? but no scout base). Then again looks like just about everything has a naval base around there. Government 7, balkanized!!!
Personally I never thought there was much connection to say Regina, the XBoat routes specifically do not connect that way instead taking the southern er, rimward route, what 9 weeks by that to get to Regina.

My take on the nobility has always been much more tied to the Imperial control, and related Emporers of the Flag. I never really thought balkanized worlds would have one person representing them. The biggest question in my mind would be what factions are there and in what proportion? I would think any noble would be an Imperial Navy person, specifically as there is no single or cohesive representative for the world, and that they have a base there, PLUS the A port. Just my take on the whole thing.

 

[rancke]

Personally I never thought there was much connection to say Regina, the XBoat routes specifically do not connect that way instead taking the southern er, rimward route, what 9 weeks by that to get to Regina.

Communication between Risek and Regina would primarily be by Navy courier and take about 16 days. An X-boat link that takes nine jumps is about three to four times slower than sending messages by merchant shipping. Perfectly ridiculous.

I never really thought balkanized worlds would have one person representing them.

Each world has an Imperial noble they can address if they have any issues. (My take is that a world's Imperial noble functions mostly as a sort of ombudsman). Anyway, one world one noble is canon (And one noble sometimes have more than one world in their care). One world government or many nations, they can all talk to the noble. Remember that in theory there's no overlap between the world's noble and its government. Human nature being what it is, realpolitik has undoubtedly required the granting of Imperial titles of a lot of world rulers, but it's not universal. Anyway, Risek's noble (or rather, an ancestor) could have been appointed generations before the naval base was built.

The biggest question in my mind would be what factions are there and in what proportion? I would think any noble would be an Imperial Navy person, specifically as there is no single or cohesive representative for the world, and that they have a base there, PLUS the A port.

BtC says Risek is "split between three main states or arcologies".


Hans

 

[Commander Truestar]

Not alone, no. But there's a strong correlation between population size and economic strength, and econimic strength is one very big source of importance.

While I agree economic engines will have Nobility(as others said , the OTU has a built in mandate of 1 noble per world, that noble can be either Marquis(Marchoness) or lesser(in OTU view) Baron(ess). Your comments suggest you're not a fan of that.
But I would say that the more important noble positions, beyond regional capitals, are where flexability is needed. This is rare in an economically powerful area as many resources can be brought to bear. That's why I have so much interest in Risek. Considering only economics is 1 sided, ignoring command/control and strategy. Your view is admittedly valid but, IMO, flat. I believe(and I may be wrong) ignores regions where economys have fallen or never risen. These areas need flexible, dynamic and (hopefully) charismatic/pursuasive figures to lead populations that may be demoralized or even rebellious. So the right nobility and the right strength of Rank may be key to growing or even maitaining the peace there. You can't just rely on the Imperial Navy as Gun point will eventually lead to a rebellion.

A population level of 5 means that the number has five zeros following the initial digit,...

You are correct there and , as stated, I was working from memory while at work. Mistakes will be made.

I haven't analysed the astrography of the region, but a casual examination would seem to indicate that the naval bases at Inthe and Aramis are more likely to be the staging areas for defense of respectively Regina and Aramis.

Actually, what happened in the FFW makes me think as I do. From a Zho PoV the invadsion was two pronged(The Spinward Marches Campaign). Rimward(South) fleets hit the Mirriam, Frenzy and Denotam Systems (Vilis subsector) while bypassed by the "Hammer"(40th fleet) for Rhylanor some penetration battles and resupply at the "secret base". Coreward(North) fleets hit and sieged the Efate and Regina Systems allowing huge amounts of material to be tied up rather than blockading the systems and driving deeper to destroy the Imperial defenses or preventing significant counter strikes.

That suggests that a better Rimward fleets strategy could have placed the front lines at(if not past) Inthe(Regina Subsector). Imperial planning, especially as commented on in the early JTAS TAS News articles, would have recognized this likelyhood and planned for a support base behind the likely front lines so their main supply and staging worlds would not be over run in the initial wave(s) of an invasion.

As for the Vargr question(s), the fleets were not slow but glutonous. They moved in quickly and largely took primary targets well enough. What happened after, the looting and general break down of control of the "fleets" is what halted them. The result of sudden changes in wealth or status in any significant Vargr hierarchy, while not expressly written by GDW, are obvious and you can only choose to ignore them. Squadron leaders will find themselves challenged by a ship captain or two after they pwehaps led their section's part in a strike or that captain faced down a significant threat as "fleet on fleet" degraded to tactical. The sudden shift as a captain becomes locally famous or gains the ability to offer great wealth is the collapse of the fleet structure from within. If you ask what evidence there is, look to the means used by the Zhodani to get the Vargr to join in. The removal of Imperial power in the region would have meant an "Expansion reward" to an organized Vargr government yet they did not join in the invasion. The fleets that did join in were large masses of corsair bands, nothing more. As fot the other question. I feel I was misread or the OTU misinterpreted. When you say:

There's not a shred of evidence to suggest that there would be enough threat from Vargr forces to Deneb Sector that the subsector fleets wouldn't be more than enough to contain them.

You fail to recognize that there is also not a shred of evidence that there are not significant Vargr forces present. And in both cases, you would be correct considering purely CT sources. However in MT, the main thrust of Vargr invasions come from teh Deneb and Corridor sectors! Now, I agree...this is CT we are talking about. But because an author ends one book and then starts a new book does not mean they ahve not written the over all storyline and broken that up into books. So I feel comfortable in assuming that GDW's intent was to have large organizations of Vargr building up and collapsing regularly but providing for a constant pressure against Imperial expansion coreward as well as a large threat against raiding and/or local invasions. I admit that is an assumption based on the documentation of the OTU, but it is no more valid than your assumptions.

So I assume that initial Imperial responses would have been slowed both by the speed of communications as well as the need to make sure that there would not be strikes further riftward(east) either to affect the lines of supply or as targets of opportunity vs even the local coursair bands that would have seen a drop in the defenses of Deneb Sector systems as reinforcements were forwarded.

So I have no secret cache of information, I am just unwilling to assume, based on the largest scale map of the known universe and the vase size of the Vargr extents, that the only point of friction or military hazard is the Spinward Marches. No Admiral pulls a majority of forces from a region assuming that "these guys" are not tied to "those guys" simply because "these guys" may choose to attack simply because half my guys left to fight "those guys". I hope I put that plainly enough as I was trying to convey a fairly complex statement simply.

The shipyard facilities of Risek are described in BtC as high-quality, but small. That's another thing that's correlated to population size: shipyard size. Even if the facilities on Risek are 100 times bigger than the average for its population, they would still be smaller than the yards at Inthe.

And, as someone else pointed out in this thread, even slightly damaged ships take up 100% of their space in repair docks. As such, I can repair a great many smaller ships at Risek while forwarding the larger ships to larger repair facilities. This is the most efficent way to repair the most ships the fastest. As well, this supports the creation of "near the front" skirmisher squadrons" as the larger ships are repaired and form up with smaller support reinforcements forwarded from Rhylanor into CruRons and BatRons. They can then either move forward and integrate with the skirmisher squadron formations or build a stronger "Defense in Strength" as the skirmisher's are forced back.

So the question finally comes to why Risek? Or even, why does it have a naval base anyway?

My answer, which need not be your answer, is based on the assumptions of the Admiralty BEFORE the FFW. The Zho's have always had Vargr support so it will either be organized or disorganized. If it is disorganized it holds little threat and that front can be commanded from Aramis. But if the Vargr fleets are organized and well commanded, then the front "Will Be" Aramis. you can say, 'but it did not happen that way' but the Imperial Admiralty obviously thought it might...or why pay to have a base at Risek in the first place??
Add tot hat the assumption that a heavy Zho thrust would not drive towards Rhylanor(because that was what they did last time and no one makes the same mistake twice) but choose to crush the Regina and Vliis Subsectors. So Inthe(Regina) would become the main front line base. As a result, you need a base that will do three thigns for you:
1) Support Inthe(or Regina if you are very lucky)
2) Support Aramis
3) support strikes coreward into the scattered handful of low tech and disconnected systems that offer a web of stepping stones between Regina's well defined clusters and the Towers cluster. Striking up through that space will allow a savvy Admiral the ability to take slightly longer jumping smaller ships to places from which they can conduct "hit and run" ops against the enemy's flanks(Aramis Front), Rimward line(Regina Front) or even drive into Vargr space to hit supply lines.

Finally, the Foreven question.
The chief forces of Sword world Might was directed against The Darrian, not The Imperium. As such, the Darrian were not a major force against Zhodani attack from Foreven Sector. As well, through the TAS News Feeds GDW made it clear that worlds like Trexalon(a Zho Client State) made the most of the war embarking on a shadow war of Privateering vs Collace. Between the sudden availability of prizes to the independant worlds in that subsector, the ongoing Trexalon/Collace shadow war and the activity of the normal pirates and other hazards to merchant operations(as District 268 was Far from Secure by GDW's own documentation), The Imperium would have many needs to feed from Glisten(who's fleets were also documented in the Sinward Marches Campaign as having been tasked with standing guard against further Sword worlds invastions IIRC).

Sorry that this has been long but I felt it should be complete to be proper.
I have t say, I am glad that I posted here because it has forced me to think through things deeper than I had before in many areas and widened out nicely Thank you to most who responded.

To the one who posted:
"Oh, as far as YTU is concerned, I wouldn't dream of contradicting you."
I am sorry you feel it needed to bring sarcasim to this debate and hope I only mis-read it that way. I can see both the OTU and MTU much better for 99% of what has been said here.

Marc

 

[rancke]

Reply, Part the First

Had to split my reply in two on account of text length.

These areas need flexible, dynamic and (hopefully) charismatic/pursuasive figures to lead populations that may be demoralized or even rebellious.

I don't believe that the main function of Imperial nobles is to provide leadership for member worlds. A High Noble provides an interface between his world and the Imperium.

From a Zho PoV the invasion was two pronged (The Spinward Marches Campaign). Rimward(South) fleets hit the Mirriam, Frenzy and Denotam Systems (Vilis subsector) while bypassed by the "Hammer"(40th fleet) for Rhylanor some penetration battles and resupply at the "secret base".

That's not how SMC describes it.

Coreward (North) fleets hit and sieged the Efate and Regina Systems allowing huge amounts of material to be tied up rather than blockading the systems and driving deeper to destroy the Imperial defenses or preventing significant counter strikes.

The Zhodani launched one attack at Jewell and the surrounding worlds and one attack at Efate. They didn't get attack Regina. There may have been a raid or two on Regina, but the only evidence of that is one single TNS newsbrief. No, I don't regard the account of the 5FW in BtC as a reliable source of information. It's riddled with contradictions of what SMC says.

That suggests that a better Rimward fleets strategy could have placed the front lines at (if not past) Inthe (Regina Subsector).

What, bypassing Jewell, Efate and Regina, leaving three large concentrations of Imperial squadrons across their supply lines?

Imperial planning, especially as commented on in the early JTAS TAS News articles, would have recognized this likelyhood and planned for a support base behind the likely front lines so their main supply and staging worlds would not be over run in the initial wave(s) of an invasion.

We shall have to agree to disagree. I think Jewell, Regina, and Efate are the likely front lines. The whole Imperial strategy is based on fortress worlds. Those worlds are meant to be difficult to conquer.

As for the Vargr question(s), the fleets were not slow but gluttonous. They moved in quickly and largely took primary targets well enough.

They attacked in mid-1107 and moved into Heya and Kinorb systems. The news would have reached Rhylanor 3½ weeks later. Add whatever time it would take whoever was in charge to decide to move the 212th up (Add another month if that man was sitting on Mora when the war began). Two weeks plus delays to get scattered fleet elements to rendevouz at Macene or Risek. If the 212th include any jump-3 squadrons, it takes another month to reach Beck's World. And that where the Vargr fleets are still to be found.

Heya doesn't capitulate until 338-1108 and it looks very much like Kinorb never does. Those Vargr are not very efficient.

[Description of breakdown of Vargr fleet in the wake of success]

I agree completely. That's just how Vargr fleets would react. And just what anyone who knew anything about the Vargr would expect them to react.

If you ask what evidence there is, look to the means used by the Zhodani to get the Vargr to join in. The removal of Imperial power in the region would have meant an "Expansion reward" to an organized Vargr government yet they did not join in the invasion. The fleets that did join in were large masses of corsair bands, nothing more.

I think the 40th Squadron would have provided a cadre for each fleet, but you're quite right that most of the components would be "free-lancers". And there's an excellent reason for that. Given the basic nature of Vargr societies, it's not to the advantage of any Vargr government to send fleets off to fight far from home. All they're likely to get out of that is, at best, a thank-you card from a successful admiral from his newly conquered world.

As fot the other question. I feel I was misread or the OTU misinterpreted. When you say:

There's not a shred of evidence to suggest that there would be enough threat from Vargr forces to Deneb Sector that the subsector fleets wouldn't be more than enough to contain them.

You fail to recognize that there is also not a shred of evidence that there are not significant Vargr forces present.

Not at all. I think there's ample evidence in Vargr about how Vargr societies are organized to make a sizable Vargr state with the desire to engage in military adventurism more than a few parsecs from its border extremely unlikely.

And in both cases, you would be correct considering purely CT sources. However in MT, the main thrust of Vargr invasions come from the Deneb and Corridor sectors! Now, I agree...this is CT we are talking about. But because an author ends one book and then starts a new book does not mean they have not written the over all storyline and broken that up into books.

I agree with you about MT material being entitled to be taken into account when the OTU is discussed. But that doesn't mean accepting everything they say as gospel truth when it contradicts previously published material (in this case, the aforementioned description of the basic nature of Vargr societies). The Vargr invasions during the Rebellion are just as implausible as the Aslan invasions, and if you read later MT publications, you'll note how world after world conquered by Vargr are retconned as "allied with the Vargr" or "conquered by a peculiar fluke".

continued in next post...

 

[rancke]

Reply, Part the Second

So I feel comfortable in assuming that GDW's intent was to have large organizations of Vargr building up and collapsing regularly but providing for a constant pressure against Imperial expansion coreward as well as a large threat against raiding and/or local invasions. I admit that is an assumption based on the documentation of the OTU, but it is no more valid than your assumptions.

Take a look at the description of the Kforuzeng in JTAS#17. They're described as the largest corsair band in Uthe subsector; they appear prominently in the MT accounts of the Vargr invasions. Yet at their height their combined fleet wasn't a match for a single light cruiser.

So I assume that initial Imperial responses would have been slowed both by the speed of communications as well as the need to make sure that there would not be strikes further riftward(east) either to affect the lines of supply or as targets of opportunity vs even the local coursair bands that would have seen a drop in the defenses of Deneb Sector systems as reinforcements were forwarded.

The admiral in charge of the fleet at Pretoria could simply send messages to the fleets in Sabine and Inar, asking for reinforcements. Before the corsair bands in Tuglikki had heard about their "weakness" ("Boss, the pinkskins have sent off half their fleet. Now they only have enough ships to destroy us 40 times over. Should we attack them?"), those reinforcement would be on their way. Communications lag works equally against all sides.

So I have no secret cache of information, I am just unwilling to assume, based on the largest scale map of the known universe and the vast size of the Vargr extents, that the only point of friction or military hazard is the Spinward Marches.

The size of the Vargr Extent is irrelevant, because the Vargr on the other side of the Vargr who borders the Imperium is much more likely to attack their neighbors than to move through their neighbors' territory to attack the Imperium.

And, as someone else pointed out in this thread,

That was me too, as I explained at the start of the first post I made in my own name.

...even slightly damaged ships take up 100% of their space in repair docks. As such, I can repair a great many smaller ships at Risek while forwarding the larger ships to larger repair facilities. This is the most efficent way to repair the most ships the fastest. As well, this supports the creation of "near the front" skirmisher squadrons" as the larger ships are repaired and form up with smaller support reinforcements forwarded from Rhylanor into CruRons and BatRons. They can then either move forward and integrate with the skirmisher squadron formations or build a stronger "Defense in Strength" as the skirmisher's are forced back.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. To reiterate my argument: Based on the likely size of their respective shipyards, the naval base at Inthe is likely to be far bigger and more important than the one at Risek.

So the question finally comes to why Risek? Or even, why does it have a naval base anyway?

My answer, which need not be your answer, is based on the assumptions of the Admiralty BEFORE the FFW. The Zho's have always had Vargr support so it will either be organized or disorganized. If it is disorganized it holds little threat and that front can be commanded from Aramis.

Or from Pretoria. The Towers Cluster is part of the Duchy of Pretoria (GT:Nobles).

...But if the Vargr fleets are organized and well commanded, then the front "Will Be" Aramis.

Because worlds like Junidy and Aramanx are so much weaker than Heya and Kinorb, so they're likely to fall like ninepins instead of holding out for months and years?

...you can say, 'but it did not happen that way' but the Imperial Admiralty obviously thought it might...or why pay to have a base at Risek in the first place??

Why not? There could be any number of reasons for having a base on Risek. Why have one on Celepina and another on Nutema and a third on Margesi? And why funnel reinforcements for Aramis through Risek and not Celepina?

Finally, the Foreven question.
The chief forces of Sword world Might was directed against The Darrian, not The Imperium. As such, the Darrian were not a major force against Zhodani attack from Foreven Sector.

You don't think the Darrians would have forces covering their spinward border? And what about the Imperial fleet in Five Sisters? And I still don't know what you were trying to say here.

As well, through the TAS News Feeds GDW made it clear that worlds like Trexalon(a Zho Client State) made the most of the war embarking on a shadow war of Privateering vs Collace. Between the sudden availability of prizes to the independant worlds in that subsector, the ongoing Trexalon/Collace shadow war and the activity of the normal pirates and other hazards to merchant operations (as District 268 was Far from Secure by GDW's own documentation), The Imperium would have many needs to feed from Glisten (who's fleets were also documented in the Sinward Marches Campaign as having been tasked with standing guard against further Sword worlds invastions IIRC).

Please tell me where GDW documents the insecurity of District 268.


Hans