Rank for the CO and XO by Ship Type?

[Poppyseed45]

As my other thread says, I've an idea to do a Imperial Navy campaign. Going by ships, what's a good rank for the CO and XO of the ships by type? I'll suggest something here - feel free to suggest other ways (I'm using the list on page 9 of Supplement 9 (Fighting Ships):

Escort - CO Lt? Crews seem to be small. XO would be a Lt.JG. Or Lt.Cmdr better?

Cruisers - many types. Small ones get Lt.Cmdrs as skipper, XO a Lt. (say Colonial through Merc). Light Cruisers/Armored rate a Cmdr., XO Lt.Cmdr Frontier/Heavy/Strike etc. get a Capt., XO Lt.Cmdr? Cmdr?

Carriers - CO Capt., XO Cmdr., and probably flag for an Admiral.

Battleships - CO Capt., XO Cmdr., and again, flag for an Admiral.

Thoughts? I tried to do this by crew rather than tonnage, but tonnage (and designation) were obviously a factor too.

 

[aramis]

You might consider whether or not a service is likely to trust a multi-dozen megacredit ship to the fair level of autonomy that even a patrol cutter (crew under 20) has to a first term officer, even as first officer. Generally, the CO's should be experienced officers- even on smaller ships - so I've always restricted CO's to being LtCdr and up. XO's are Lt and up.

 

[Poppyseed45]

You might consider whether or not a service is likely to trust a multi-dozen megacredit ship to the fair level of autonomy that even a patrol cutter (crew under 20) has to a first term officer, even as first officer. Generally, the CO's should be experienced officers- even on smaller ships - so I've always restricted CO's to being LtCdr and up. XO's are Lt and up.

Heh, didn't factor in the autonomy thing. Which means LTs would only skipper in-system escorts and boats and the like, I imagine.

So, Lt.Cmdr on up it is! Does make things easier.

 

[Reban]

Aramis makes a good point. As well as holding a certain rank to command a certain size of vessel the Navy might require the CO to have one or more terms "in the rank" avoiding the possibility of having an officer assume command on his first day in his new rank.

Very generally I use:

Lieutenants: command Couriers, smaller "flotilla" craft where they can be supervised by a more senior officer, and after having som time in the rank they might get an Escort or Patrol Ship that operates independently. Mostly however Lieutenants have to serve some time as department heads aboard ships before receiving a first command.

Lt. Commanders: command light cruisers and escorts as necessary but again as part of a squadron or task force not as independent commands. Generally they get to serve as XOs to Commanders.

Commanders: I trust these guys with Light Cruisers and Frigates on detached or independent duty. Destroyers and destroyer flotillas might be led by a Commander. Commanders serve as XOs to Captains.

Captains: Captains get the Cruisers as independent commands. All Capital ships rate a captain but often there may be an Admiral and his staff on board these bigger ships when they are flagships of a squadron or fleet.

And for every rule there are exceptions, for example a young officer on a fast track for promotion might get an independent command sooner than his fellows. Maverick officers might be post captain of a ship as part of a unit under an officer that can reign them in.

The rank of captain might mark a plateau in a career path, younger captains might get cruisers, while older captains get a battleship or tender/carrier, but an older proven captain might end his career bringing a brand new class of light cruiser from the drawing board to her acceptance trials or first mission.

Hope that helps

 

[aramis]

There's also the possibility that, say, a 1st term lieutenant might get a command, but be barred from "independent action"... while a 2nd term lieutenant, with 2-3 years of such command under his belt, might be the line CO, and have limited autonomy, and a commander might command the squadron.

 

[MCEvans]

Just for ideas MgT - Sector Fleet. Might give some ideas.
Remember that a Naval Lieutenant = an Army/Marine Captain or O3 and will be at least in his/her 2nd term at minimum, likely 3rd+ term. So could be CO for a Close Escort size ship or department head on a ship in the 1,000 dTon range.

 

[Limburger59]

Seems like SDB's are the place for young officers to cut their teeth.

 

[aramis]

Just for ideas MgT - Sector Fleet. Might give some ideas.
Remember that a Naval Lieutenant = an Army/Marine Captain or O3 and will be at least in his/her 2nd term at minimum, likely 3rd+ term. So could be CO for a Close Escort size ship or department head on a ship in the 1,000 dTon range.

Note that this differs from several other editions - where O1-O2-O3 are compressed into Ranks 1 & 2 in basic gen - tho' the specific compression of titles varies, it's usually O3=R2. and advanced CT/MT, where you can get commissioned, promoted, and then get a second from either attaché duty or an SEH.

 

[Dagrill]

As my other thread says, I've an idea to do a Imperial Navy campaign. Going by ships, what's a good rank for the CO and XO of the ships by type? I'll suggest something here - feel free to suggest other ways (I'm using the list on page 9 of Supplement 9 (Fighting Ships):

Escort - CO Lt? Crews seem to be small. XO would be a Lt.JG. Or Lt.Cmdr better?

Cruisers - many types. Small ones get Lt.Cmdrs as skipper, XO a Lt. (say Colonial through Merc). Light Cruisers/Armored rate a Cmdr., XO Lt.Cmdr Frontier/Heavy/Strike etc. get a Capt., XO Lt.Cmdr? Cmdr?

Carriers - CO Capt., XO Cmdr., and probably flag for an Admiral.

Battleships - CO Capt., XO Cmdr., and again, flag for an Admiral.

Thoughts? I tried to do this by crew rather than tonnage, but tonnage (and designation) were obviously a factor too.

Hi,

I would only use O3 (Lieutenant) on small patrol ships like the 400t CE, PC,
I use O4 (Lt.Cmdr) for 1kt DE's and large Escorts
05 (Commander) for Cruisers (Spinal Mount) & Carriers
06 (Captain) Battleships & Fleet Carriers

IMTU I've also used higher ranks in smaller ships for Planetary Navies starships. This makes things interesting as they form the Reserve/Colonial Fleet for the Sub-Sector, so I designate that an Imperlal rank is 2 grades above the equivalent Planetary rank.

Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

You might consider whether or not a service is likely to trust a multi-dozen megacredit ship to the fair level of autonomy that even a patrol cutter (crew under 20) has to a first term officer, even as first officer. Generally, the CO's should be experienced officers- even on smaller ships - so I've always restricted CO's to being LtCdr and up. XO's are Lt and up.

On the other hand an O4 Lt Cmdr, O3 Lt and a dozen enlisted on a 400 ton patrol cruiser seems overkill if it's not the flotilla leader.

Also canon does not support this speaking of very junior officers (O2) commanding ships in FASA's adventure class ships.

Regards

David

 

[rancke]

On the other hand an O4 Lt Cmdr, O3 Lt and a dozen enlisted on a 400 ton patrol cruiser seems overkill if it's not the flotilla leader.

Also canon does not support this speaking of very junior officers (O2) commanding ships in FASA's adventure class ships.

FASA isn't canon. The only canon I know on the subject is the crew list of the Luuru in The Kinunir, p. 31-38, and IMO that one is way over-officered (A full captain for a CO, two commanders, two lieutenant commanders, three lieutenants, two ensigns, and an extra lieutenant plus a marine captain and three marine 1st lieutenants for a crew of 46 navy and 34 marines).

There may be some canonical ships where the rank of the captain is mentioned, but I can't remember any.

I go by rules of thumb based on crew size:

Up to 25: sublieutenant (but an experienced one).
25-75: lieutenant
75-150: lt. commander
150-450: commander
450+: Increasingly experienced captains.

These cut-offs are not hard and fast.

Another rule of thumb examines the biggest department: 1 in 6 crew is an NCO/officer; 1 in 6 NCO/Officers is an officer (ensigns don't count), 1 in six officers is of a higher rank, department head is one rank higher than any other officer in his department, commanding officer is one rank higher than any of his department heads.

(These rules are for combatants. Auxiliaries tend to have a lower ranking captains than combatants with the same sized crew.)

Between these two rules I work out something sensible for any specific ship.


Hans

 

[Dagrill]

FASA isn't canon. The only canon I know on the subject is the crew list of the Luuru in The Kinunir, p. 31-38, and IMO that one is way over-officered (A full captain for a CO, two commanders, two lieutenant commanders, three lieutenants, two ensigns, and an extra lieutenant plus a marine captain and three marine 1st lieutenants for a crew of 46 navy and 34 marines).

(These rules are for combatants. Auxiliaries tend to have a lower ranking captains than combatants with the same sized crew.)
Hans

That's a shame I prefer the FASA products to Kinunir, although I have purchased another copy of Kinunir recently and it's clearly aimed at the small ship universe where it would be a cruiser sized ship.

I tend to downgrade Auxilaries to a Lieutenant's command unless they are really huge,

Regards

David

 

[Carlobrand]

...I tend to downgrade Auxilaries to a Lieutenant's command unless they are really huge ...

Depends I think on what kind of auxiliary.

I tend to agree with the idea of at least a Lt. Commander for a DE, which leaves commanders for light to medium cruisers and captains for the heavy cruiser to dreadnought size warships.

My squadrons include small fast tankers and cargo transports - in the thousandish dTon range, 'cause it's so depressing when they hit the one big 'un and all your missiles go up with it, and the little 'uns are harder to hit and can scatter, hopefully allowing a bit of your supplies to survive an unfortunate development. Anyway, putting a lieutenant in command of such a ship, where there's less room for independent action and fewer choices to make, sounds like a good way to get the man some command training.

 

[rancke]

I tend to agree with the idea of at least a Lt. Commander for a DE, which leaves commanders for light to medium cruisers and captains for the heavy cruiser to dreadnought size warships.

I don't see lt. commanders in charge of something with a crew of around 15. Commanders for light cruisers and captains for heavy cruisers and up sounds fine.


Hans

 

[JimMarn]

When I was in the US Navy, 4 stripers were ddg captains. Lt. Commanders were XOs. Lts and Ltjgs were departmental officers. My ship didn't have any Marines aboard. The typically served on cruisers and aircraft carriers.

We saw a Coast Guard Cutter when we came in Cheasapeake Bay one day. I don't remember the ship's length, but the Captain was an Ensign. It was smaller than the 450 foot long DDG I was stationed on.

 

[rancke]

When I was in the US Navy, 4 stripers were ddg captains. Lt. Commanders were XOs. Lts and Ltjgs were departmental officers. My ship didn't have any Marines aboard. The typically served on cruisers and aircraft carriers.

Googling shows a crew of 281 for an Arleigh Burke class DDG. I would give a Traveller warship with that size of crew a commander for a CO, but my knowledge of modern navies is limited.

What do the commanders do if the captains are captains and the XOs are lt. commanders?


Hans

 

[MCEvans]

Note that this differs from several other editions - where O1-O2-O3 are compressed into Ranks 1 & 2 in basic gen - tho' the specific compression of titles varies, it's usually O3=R2. and advanced CT/MT, where you can get commissioned, promoted, and then get a second from either attaché duty or an SEH.

True, so you need to decide your CharGen system and adjust accordingly.
I prefer a more fleshed out system like advanced CT or MT like

As for the 3 promotions - if you enlist you need to get OCS first because you are an E1. If start as an Officer you have put in pre-career at the Academy or NOTC so you have at least 1 term of 'book learning'. As for the command duty there is another die roll with O3 = DM -1 ( O1 or O2 = DM -3(I think))

So even if they get the rank do they get a command? Maybe, but is the XO another 'new' officer or seasoned CPO (note - some 'new' officers from OCS may have been a PO or CPO be fore OCS)

Just food for thought

:CoW:This also IMO relates to ship size universe - larger ships = more ranks or you start getting into the ST:TOS syndrome of 1 enlisted Tech for every 10-25 officers :CoW:

 

[Carlobrand]

I don't see lt. commanders in charge of something with a crew of around 15. Commanders for light cruisers and captains for heavy cruisers and up sounds fine.


Hans

Kinda depends on how you see it. It's about the size of a PT boat, crew-wise, suggesting a lieutenant could helm it. On the other hand, that puppy carries nukes and might need to operate alone on some missions; there could be restrictions on what command-grade can have nukes aboard.

 

[rancke]

Kinda depends on how you see it. It's about the size of a PT boat, crew-wise, suggesting a lieutenant could helm it.

PT boats were commanded by lieutenant jgs., which would be the equivalent of a Traveller Navy sublieutenant.

On the other hand, that puppy carries nukes and might need to operate alone on some missions; there could be restrictions on what command-grade can have nukes aboard.

Possibly. OTOH, nukes may not have the same mystical aura 3000 years into the future that they have on Earth today. I'm influenced by having run a naval campaign once where I needed a jump-capable vessel that a O2 PC could be in charge of. My players started as the crew of a streamlined Gazelle, near enough (no drop tanks).


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

Curious: what was Hornblower's rank the first time he commanded a crew and a little independent command?