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Recon Drones

I am rather interested in creating recon drones..

MGT HG2 seems to give them at .2ton each (5 per 1ton and costing .5MCr at TL9, and MCr.8 at TL 12).. this seems way too small..

But I recall something somewhere in one of the books about the Scouts about their sensor drones.. and it was small... but I can't put my finger on it.

But lets say you wanted to design them could you use Fire Fusion Steel of either T4 or TNE.. and then retro fit them into CT... what do you think their specs would be? Do anyone have any suggestion or ideas here?

Or
Should we just stick to CT and HG 80 rules. As the .2 tons items just seems not strong enough. And with CT HG 80 would not the smallest done would be 4-5 tons with:

1 ton M drive
1 ton PP
1 ton Fuel
1-2 ton computer?

I would think you need to add in lieu of the person 1 ton for sensor-avionic-comms and drone control system, no?

In the T5 shipyard there is the XRD Recon Drone 10 tons 19.75MCr... and that suggest the .2ton devise is not reasonable... its another MGT fudge.

I like to hear some of your thoughts here. Thanks.
 
recon drones for space use, or recon drones for planetary use?

if the latter, both CT book 8 (or the JTAS article on robots) and Striker can easily produce a recon drone smaller than .2 dton (2.7 M^3)

I often design TL13-15 war vehicles to include a drone (some carry more than one)

not familiar with FF&S or T4, etc...
 
I am rather interested in creating recon drones..

MGT HG2 seems to give them at .2ton each (5 per 1ton and costing .5MCr at TL9, and MCr.8 at TL 12).. this seems way too small..

That seems about the size of the Imperial droid Han and Chewie encountered near the start of Empire Strikes Back.

But I recall something somewhere in one of the books about the Scouts about their sensor drones.. and it was small... but I can't put my finger on it.

The recon drone in Supplement 4 us described as being the size of a ground car, but no stats beyond cost are given.

But lets say you wanted to design them could you use Fire Fusion Steel of either T4 or TNE.. and then retro fit them into CT... what do you think their specs would be? Do anyone have any suggestion or ideas here?

CT and MgT have books dedicated to robots and GT can use GURPS Robots. I think MT uses the design rules in the core rules. No idea about other editions.
 
I remind you all of CT book 2, page 17. Missiles are convertible to space recon drones and surface bombs.
 
Actually, I am not looking into planetary recon drones, but space one, that lets say a picket or a recon ship would deploy in system to watch for coming and goings of enemy ships...

They have to be able to go refuel by a gas giant, if possible, otherwise they need to return to the control ship to fuel up. You can drop them and go and come back and they will tell you want happened.
 
Actually, I am not looking into planetary recon drones, but space one, that lets say a picket or a recon ship would deploy in system to watch for coming and goings of enemy ships...

They have to be able to go refuel by a gas giant, if possible, otherwise they need to return to the control ship to fuel up. You can drop them and go and come back and they will tell you want happened.

You could probably use solar panels for power.
 
MT:101 vehicles has a TL 13 recon drone in page 13. It's 2 dtons in displacement.
 
I've done a lot of recon drones in FF&S for T4 and at different tech levels.

The thruster plate is too big for this use, but a HEPLAR + a 1.01 M/W Fusion plant a PEMS sensor and a laser comm at 1 AU range completes the basic, add in a flight computer and a battery (so the fusion plant can be powered down for periods of drift) Add in a radio transmitter for a decoy drone.
TL 15:
1.01 MW power plant .169 m3 (minimal size .02m3, scale efficiency at >.2m3) 169mt radiators -.001m2 per MW
HEPLAR .1m3 .1 mt thruster nozzles-.05m2 -1MW 20KN
Flight computer .01m3 .01mt...
and you can see that the basic requirements can be fit into well under 1 cubic meter with a generous allotment of liquid hydrogen for the heplar and power plant. With a mass of <.4 mt including hull this thing can pull 5g's throw in some stealth features and it can be very difficult to detect when the power plant is powered down (non reflective ultra black hull, 100X the radiators for the power plant, stealth hull shape) and your reflected, power and gravity signatures are all quite low. The full up package usually came in at between .6 and .75 cubic meters depending on the payload and yes this could be your anti ship missile as well, as the smaller nuke warheads fit into this form factor
giving you a 1/14 Dt missile with 5g 40 endurance.

One of my favorites was to throw in a weapon like a minimally powered laser that has a range of 90,000 to 120,000 Km so that a swarm of these could do an attack on surface features without destroying the valuable goodies inside.
( Per Brilliant lances 1DV to 5 DV hits induce system resets and such on hit sensor antennas that are bigger than 5 metric tons and goes towards destroying smaller items at a rate of 1 DV destroys 1 mt these are called minor hits)

When the minimum size for the fusion plant gets too large for this use you go with chemical rockets and very restricted delta V or else you have to start looking at drones that are much larger.

FF&S TNE also gives you the requirements for controlling a drone set (treat as missiles for a master fire director to control 6 at TL F , and -1 for each lower TL)
 
MT:101 vehicles has a TL 13 recon drone in page 13. It's 2 dtons in displacement.

Alas I don't have access to MT: 101 Vehicles in that is one of those Digest Group Products I don't have access to and aren't available at RPG Games. (I was especially wishing to get my hands on Flaming Eye... but no luck.)
 
Alas I don't have access to MT: 101 Vehicles in that is one of those Digest Group Products I don't have access to and aren't available at RPG Games. (I was especially wishing to get my hands on Flaming Eye... but no luck.)


If you do not mind one in used condition, there are several of each on eBay right now. Do a search by "DGP Flaming Eye" or "DGP 101 Vehicles". Some of them are "Buy it Now" instead of bidding-auctions.

(Note: I am not the seller of any of these)

 
I've done a lot of recon drones in FF&S for T4 and at different tech levels.

The thruster plate is too big for this use, but a HEPLAR + a 1.01 M/W Fusion plant a PEMS sensor and a laser comm at 1 AU range completes the basic, add in a flight computer and a battery (so the fusion plant can be powered down for periods of drift) Add in a radio transmitter for a decoy drone.
TL 15:
1.01 MW power plant .169 m3 (minimal size .02m3, scale efficiency at >.2m3) 169mt radiators -.001m2 per MW
HEPLAR .1m3 .1 mt thruster nozzles-.05m2 -1MW 20KN
Flight computer .01m3 .01mt...
and you can see that the basic requirements can be fit into well under 1 cubic meter with a generous allotment of liquid hydrogen for the heplar and power plant. With a mass of <.4 mt including hull this thing can pull 5g's throw in some stealth features and it can be very difficult to detect when the power plant is powered down (non reflective ultra black hull, 100X the radiators for the power plant, stealth hull shape) and your reflected, power and gravity signatures are all quite low. The full up package usually came in at between .6 and .75 cubic meters depending on the payload and yes this could be your anti ship missile as well, as the smaller nuke warheads fit into this form factor
giving you a 1/14 Dt missile with 5g 40 endurance.

One of my favorites was to throw in a weapon like a minimally powered laser that has a range of 90,000 to 120,000 Km so that a swarm of these could do an attack on surface features without destroying the valuable goodies inside.
( Per Brilliant lances 1DV to 5 DV hits induce system resets and such on hit sensor antennas that are bigger than 5 metric tons and goes towards destroying smaller items at a rate of 1 DV destroys 1 mt these are called minor hits)

When the minimum size for the fusion plant gets too large for this use you go with chemical rockets and very restricted delta V or else you have to start looking at drones that are much larger.

FF&S TNE also gives you the requirements for controlling a drone set (treat as missiles for a master fire director to control 6 at TL F , and -1 for each lower TL)

Interesting...

I need to go look at the TNE FF&S stuff more closely... Is it also in FF&S for T4?

As for the missile approach, they might be good as fire and one time use.. as in a quick tactical check on what is going on, but I am looking at it more in light of intelligence gathering and reconnaissance that play a big but under recognized role in any fleet ops.

I have designed a 10ton item using a slight modification of High Guard Small Craft rules.. the crew chair becomes the drone avionics-radio comms unit, and another 1/2 ton for sensor packages....


But using some of the suggestions others have presented about fighters, I could see this as a low end of such a long term recon drone:

1 Ton Fuel
1 Ton Power Plant
1 Ton G drive
1-2 Ton Computer (Factor 1 or Factor 2)
.5 ton drone avionics-radio comms unit
.5 tons sensor package.
-----------
5 Tons if Factor 1 computer
6 Tons if Factor 2 computer

These would be the minimums no?
 
I made an order of magnitude error, the heplar is 2000 KN/m3 for 10 MW input so we have 200 KN not 20, giving 50 gravities of acceleration so the missile would be 50g turns/ 800 gturns total impulse, a whole order of magnitude better!

(the maximum acceleration of a HEPLAR is 200 g's if your power source and fuel had no mass)

Another use is point defense missiles with a 50 kg blast fragmentation warhead (capable of reaching standoff nuke detonation laser missile range in about 6 minutes with it's 80g's of thrust)
 
I see recon drones as being semi-autonomous. While they are normally operated remotely, they have sufficient computing power to allow limited independent operations. Specifically, the recon vehicle would have a passive mode where it checks for unusual activity and alerts an living operator if something is found. Also, in case the control link is lost, the recon vehicle would be capable of performing evasive actions to prevent capture/destruction.
 
I see recon drones as being semi-autonomous. While they are normally operated remotely, they have sufficient computing power to allow limited independent operations. Specifically, the recon vehicle would have a passive mode where it checks for unusual activity and alerts an living operator if something is found. Also, in case the control link is lost, the recon vehicle would be capable of performing evasive actions to prevent capture/destruction.

I agree. Also, it needs to be able to left alone to lay and record info so when a patrolling intel ship enters the system where there are a few recon drones they will upload their current reports (of course only after the Intel ship sends out the properly coded upload intel command).

Also they ought to have meson communication modes so they could communicate not only via LOS.
 
Just checked the Missile Supplement for CT, it suggests loading up the sensor packages normally used for homing.

Those rules suggest terminal homing begins at 25mm which translates to 2500 km, most of the Robots sensor rigs that are similarly sized and priced operate 5-50,000km.

Beauty of those things is they are cheap and disposable and can be fired off the standard missile rack, and since there is no warhead you can load up on fuel and possibly a long term power source or transmitter.

May not be good for deep space recon though if you don't have a fixed object you expect them around.

You could homerule the larger HG bay missiles as having longer 100,000 km plus sensor ranges at scaled costs.

Anything larger and longer ranged sensor suite should probably be a small craft, with a robot piloting/operating sensors to your programmed instructions.
 
Interesting...

I need to go look at the TNE FF&S stuff more closely... Is it also in FF&S for T4?

As for the missile approach, they might be good as fire and one time use.. as in a quick tactical check on what is going on, but I am looking at it more in light of intelligence gathering and reconnaissance that play a big but under recognized role in any fleet ops.

I have designed a 10ton item using a slight modification of High Guard Small Craft rules.. the crew chair becomes the drone avionics-radio comms unit, and another 1/2 ton for sensor packages....


But using some of the suggestions others have presented about fighters, I could see this as a low end of such a long term recon drone:

1 Ton Fuel
1 Ton Power Plant
1 Ton G drive
1-2 Ton Computer (Factor 1 or Factor 2)
.5 ton drone avionics-radio comms unit
.5 tons sensor package.
-----------
5 Tons if Factor 1 computer
6 Tons if Factor 2 computer

These would be the minimums no?

Well... the drones with a fusion power plant computer and a radio receiver with a 1 AU range laser comm and a battery that allows the pp to be off for months at a time is a better item to use, put a folding EMS array on it so you can get a higher sensitivity. Don't forget the PP fuel for the T4 and TNE FF&S is rated in a number of l per year per MW so you do not need large piles of fuel to be able to have several decades of time on post endurance.
The Meson communicator is a huge and power hungry device that needs a precise location rather than a direction and IMO is only useful for communicating with asteroid based listening posts where you are not trying to be as small and stealthy as possible.

For drones usage you would install flight computers that are 10 % the mass and volume of a standard computer but do not aid maintenance tasks.

So what does it mean to be stealthy?
Try to be as small as you can so you do not reflect much energy, or occlude stars, try to use as little energy as you can so your waste heat does not make you a beacon (when you have detected bogies you use the radiators on the side away from the bogies) never use antigravity or thrusters based on gravetics as this makes you detectable to a gravational sensors, in short the long term system listening drone needs to be as small as you can make it and still be able to complete the mission.

The sensor tasks put forth in the T4 FF&S errata show that a +2 signature after subtracting range mod from sensitivity is an auto detection and every -1 you can get in signature gives you an order of magnitude closer to the target before you are detected.

A Tigress class battleship has a sensor suite that is in the range of a 15 to 16 sensitivity, for both active and passive, while one of these drones has a sensitivity of 12.5 on it's PEMS array. But what does that mean?
Can the battleship detect the drone before the drone detects the battleship is the real issue here.

So look at visible sig 100dt is rated as 0 sig with a -1 or +1 for every order of magnitude. At 500,000 dt the base visible signature if the Tigress is at +3.5 even if they apply stealth coatings they are still at +2.5, and a lot more expensive, now the drone is at -2 with another -1 for it's stealth coating
for difference of 5.5 in favor of the drone so 16-12.5 -5= -1.5 says the drone can detect the battleship by it's reflected visible signature 50 times further out than the battleship can detect the drone's signature but as you need a +2 to guarantee detection the battleship gets a +.5 (impossible task) signature detection task attempt when the drone is at auto detect on it's task.

The engineering signature is based on power consumed with 0 sig set at 10 MW with a +- .5 for every order of mag change. We'll assume the drone is powered down and operating on batteries for .01MW usage for 3 orders of mag reduction, sig = -1.5 extreme EMM masking reduces by another -1 for an engineering sig = -2.5. The Tigress is J-4 so at pump for jump time it is producing 4 EP per 100 dt or 20,000 EP where each EP is 500 MW so 100,000 MW for +4 orders of mag, sig +2 Tigress does not have enough surface area to mount extreme EMM masking and so only gets a -.5 sig mod for a total sig of +1.5 So on power emitted the drone only has a +.5 advantage after comparing sensors.

So the gist of this is if the drone used more than minimal power a fleet can detect it with a +.5 advantage over the drone.

My T4 CD is in another computer at the moment so the sig gain/reduction per order of mag may be off, and I invite you to look them up, but this gives you an idea of what to look for in a covert sensor drone.
 
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