What works? How are ships and vehicles armed?

[kilemall]

I worked that all out. Striker gives us bay missiles count of 50 per 50 ton and 100 per 100 ton. There are equivalencies between x of the turret missiles and a bay missile attack. So predicated on a 15 missile or 30 missile attack, I figure a single bay missile is worth 15 missiles, 50kg x 15 is 750 kg, with a 25cm wide cylinder it ends up being a big SAM.

So 50 shots per bay. Or you could call it 2 and 4 missiles respectively and call it 25 shots.

If one were to use the missile supplement, simply multiply a build x15, and add in some decoys/ECM/armor to explain how 1-4 bay missiles get through vs 15-30 turret missiles.

 

[Badenov]

Well, that's all TL7-8 missiles. At TL9-15, you can say just about anything. You could call them photon torpedos and say they're energy weapons if you really wanted to explain the no-ammo thing. My personal headcanon for CT is that they're super simple to produce with basic TL9+ assembly equipment evolved from special purpose 3d printers, that they're fabricated as needed, and the gear to do so is part of the cost and mass of the launcher. Which is ironic when MgT1 makes you buy and store them on board. For purposes of shenanigans in space, it's probably below the important enough to worry about threshhold unless you really want to for some reason.

 

[kilemall]

Well, that's all TL7-8 missiles. At TL9-15, you can say just about anything. You could call them photon torpedos and say they're energy weapons if you really wanted to explain the no-ammo thing. My personal headcanon for CT is that they're super simple to produce with basic TL9+ assembly equipment evolved from special purpose 3d printers, that they're fabricated as needed, and the gear to do so is part of the cost and mass of the launcher. Which is ironic when MgT1 makes you buy and store them on board. For purposes of shenanigans in space, it's probably below the important enough to worry about threshhold unless you really want to for some reason.

I do just for game balance per expended credit reason.

 

[Spinward Flow]

One of the glaring rule omissions is a limit on how many missile salvos. There are rules for turret missiles buried in SS:3, but as the HG80 rules are at present they have an infinite supply of missiles.

Each missile launcher in a turret has 3 missiles (1 ready to fire, 2 reloads).
Each turret can have 12 reloads, which are then shared between all of the weapons installed into that turret.

So technically speaking ...

• Single Turret (missile) = 3+12 = 15 shots ... or 15 combat rounds if shooting 1 missile per combat round
• Dual Turret (missile/missile) = 3+3+12 = 18 shots ... or 9 combat rounds if shooting 2 missiles per combat round
• Triple Turret (missile/missile/missile) = 3+3+3+12 = 21 shots ... or 7 combat rounds if shooting 3 missiles per combat round

Note that the exact same thing applies interchangeably for sandcasters, but then you need to specify what "mix" is loaded.

• Mixed Triple Turret (missile/sandcaster/missile)
  • Each missile launcher has 3 shots
  • Each sandcaster has 3 shots
  • The turret has 12 reloads that need to be shared between the missile launchers and the sandcaster

So you could do something like 8 missile reloads (4 per missile launcher) in the turret and 4 sandcaster reloads in the turret.

• Mixed Triple Turret (missile/sandcaster/missile)
  • Each missile launcher has 3+4=7 shots
  • The sandcaster has 3+4=7 shots

Dedicated magazines (LBB5.79, p31-32) cost Cr10,000 per ton, and require 1 Gunnery crew position per 25 tons. Each ton of magazine will hold 20 shots of sand or missiles. LBB5.79, p26 can be used to compute how many tons of magazine capacity are needed per missile launcher in order to enable an orbital bombardment capability. For turrets, it's 1 ton of magazine (20 missile reloads) per missile launcher.



LBB5.80 "forgot about logistics" for ordnance, so it kind of feels like missiles and sandcasters have bottomless/infinite magazine capacity, but that's neither actually true nor was it the original intent. Unfortunately, you need to have "more than just LBB5.80" available to you in order to realize that and start piecing together was supposed to happen, but somehow wound up left on the editing room floor (where it didn't belong). I can easily imagine that the missile/sand "logistics" issue was cut for page count/space reasons and then just got "lost" in the shuffle of releases and priorities.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Each turret can have 12 reloads, which are then shared between all of the weapons installed into that turret.

Where do you see 12 reloads? Each turret has up to 2 reloads per launcher -- that's it before the gunner has to stop firing and spend one turn per launcher to load it's three missiles or sandcasters (this may take up to 3 turns...)* from a storage magazine that LBB2 does not describe at all. One can assume that missiles can be stored at no less than 9 per Td (1Td turrets hold 9 each, plus the launch mechanism, targeting systems, and the gunner's control couch -- simply storing the missiles without the turret overhead has to be higher density than that).

*Mind you, it might be quicker for a triple missile turret to just reload the launch tubes of a triple missile turret (3 missiles, firing after 1 turn reload delay) though that's not called out as an option. Neither is the possibility of either a gunner's mate to help with the reload task, or an autoloader -- and you'd think they'd have the latter by TL-9, but it's a game so...

 

[Grav_Moped]

Each turret has up to 2 reloads per launcher

Ref: LBB2 '81, p.32: Reloading

 

[kilemall]

Also missile supplement gives missile count that can be stuffed in the turret space.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Also missile supplement gives missile count that can be stuffed in the turret space.

Don't have it at hand, how many fit?

LBB2 says each launcher has one in the tube, and 2 more at the ready before needing to stop to reload. Control couch is 0 5Td, which gets taken out of the 1Td turret, so those up-to-9 missiles fit into less than half a ton...

 

[Condottiere]

Don't forget the gunner.

 

[Badenov]

Holy we-haven't-advanced-beyond-TL5, Batman, Traveller requires manually reloading missiles? Neither MgT1 nor LBB5 mentions anything about manual loading, so I assume the military has autoloaders.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Back to High Guard.

One of the glaring rule omissions is a limit on how many missile salvos. There are rules for turret missiles buried in SS:3, but as the HG80 rules are at present they have an infinite supply of missiles. Worse they can have an infinite supply of nuclear missiles.

HG just doesn't do logistics.

Go the the reserve, rearm from the assumed ammo carrier, and rejoin the battle, simplified to infinite ammo...
It's just hidden in the 10% per year upkeep cost in TCS.

 

[mike wightman]

Missiles special supplement rules:
" MISSILE STORAGE
Each standard missile rack can hold one missile ready to fire and two additional missiles ready for future game turns. The role of the gunner in the turret is to aim and fire the weaponry in the turret; once the missile racks and ready missiles are exhausted, the gunner must reload them with new missiles. A gunner can load new missiles into the racks and still operate the weaponry in a game turn.
The standard turret has room to store an additional 12 missiles in it. Once these missiles have been used, the turret must be restocked with missiles carried elsewhere in the ship (usually in the cargo hold).
Restocking a turret with missiles is accomplished during the game turn interphase. If the gunner participates in restocking, he may not operate weaponry in the turret in the next game turn. It is possible for non-gunner crew members who are not otherwise engaged to perform restocking instead. One person can restock a turret in one game turn."

Missile rack: 1 missile ready, 2 missiles ready for future turns
an additional 12 missiles stored in the turret.
Total - 15, 15 turns of launching missiles.
Double missile rack: 2 missiles ready to fire, 4 missiles ready for future turns
an additional 12 missiles stored in the turret.
Total - 18, 9 turns of launching missiles
Triple missile rack: 3 missiles ready to fire, 6 missiles ready for future turns
an additional 12 missiles stored in the turret.
Total - 21, 7 turns of launching missiles.

 

[kilemall]

Holy we-haven't-advanced-beyond-TL5, Batman, Traveller requires manually reloading missiles? Neither MgT1 nor LBB5 mentions anything about manual loading, so I assume the military has autoloaders.

Yes it did. Again, story sim not milsim.

Near as I can tell the 15cm and 25cm missile sizes in Striker were so you could arm them for ortillery and nukes and integrate them into the ground game. The missile supplement warheads had a bit more punch so separate things.

 

[Badenov]

Yes it did. Again, story sim not milsim.

I don't know what this means, sorry.

Near as I can tell the 15cm and 25cm missile sizes in Striker were so you could arm them for ortillery and nukes and integrate them into the ground game. The missile supplement warheads had a bit more punch so separate things.

Hangon, now I'm confused. Are we talking spaceships or ground vehicles?

 

[kilemall]

I don't know what this means, sorry.

Hangon, now I'm confused. Are we talking spaceships or ground vehicles?

IMO Traveller should be seen as a simulator of stories, not a simulation of space travel and work. I’m extending that to milsim. In this case, heroic agency getting that missile loaded up. Also a game role of something other than pushing the fire button.

CT Striker tells us what the hard relative diameter numbers are for the missile types, by extension what the warheads for ground use are valued, and how many missiles per bay. This was done in service to ortillery use for ground battle as off board fire support, but has usefulness in the context of defining the weapon systems in general.

 

[Badenov]

IMO Traveller should be seen as a simulator of stories, not a simulation of space travel and work. I’m extending that to milsim. In this case, heroic agency getting that missile loaded up. Also a game role of something other than pushing the fire button.

I've been on that 8-hour all-hands working party carrying 50-75-lb shells all day, with a break for a fire drill at lunch. Carrying ammo is not worth simulating. If the future doesn't have something better than that, I don't want it. Sidenote: Civilian vessels are substantially more automated than military vessels.

CT Striker tells us what the hard relative diameter numbers are for the missile types, by extension what the warheads for ground use are valued, and how many missiles per bay. This was done in service to ortillery use for ground battle as off board fire support, but has usefulness in the context of defining the weapon systems in general.

So are shipboard missiles, already identified as 50kg, 15cm or 25cm?

 

[Badenov]

Missiles special supplement rules:
" MISSILE STORAGE
Each standard missile rack can hold one missile ready to fire and two additional missiles ready for future game turns. The role of the gunner in the turret is to aim and fire the weaponry in the turret; once the missile racks and ready missiles are exhausted, the gunner must reload them with new missiles. A gunner can load new missiles into the racks and still operate the weaponry in a game turn.
The standard turret has room to store an additional 12 missiles in it. Once these missiles have been used, the turret must be restocked with missiles carried elsewhere in the ship (usually in the cargo hold).
Restocking a turret with missiles is accomplished during the game turn interphase. If the gunner participates in restocking, he may not operate weaponry in the turret in the next game turn. It is possible for non-gunner crew members who are not otherwise engaged to perform restocking instead. One person can restock a turret in one game turn."

So it takes 1000 seconds to take a game turn in LBB2, which is 16.66 minutes. LBB5 rounds thus up to 20 minutes (but then ignores the reloading thing). So does the extra 3+ minutes get you free reloading? Does it include the gunner running down to the magazine and humping a 50kg missile into the launcher?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So does the extra 3+ minutes get you free reloading?

No...

Does it include the gunner running down to the magazine and humping a 50kg missile into the launcher?

Yes, presumably, or perhaps pushing a cart of missiles.


The context in LBB2 is an aftermarket turret added to what is basically a full civilian ship. LBB5 comes with a different set of underlying assumptions.

I would assume autoloaders from dedicated magazines on purpose-built military ships, and hand-loading on small civilian ships with aftermarket turrets, regardless of design system, but that is a house rule I guess. See the SDB in S7.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So are shipboard missiles, already identified as 50kg, 15cm or 25cm?

Turret missiles are 50 kg and 15 cm diameter, and undefined total size.
Bay missiles are 25 cm diameter and otherwise undefined.


The turret missile is roughly as large as a '70s AAM, say a Sidewinder. That would be a volume of 0.04 m³ or perhaps 100-200 per 14 m³ = 1 Dt with some packaging.

 

[whartung]

HG doesn't do missiles because I think they quickly found out that the ships would quickly run out with little impact on the opposing fleet.

As demonstrated, and as has been anecdotally witnessed in the past, HG battles can be very, very long. Roll after roll after roll trying to get that 1% chance.

Being able to bring enough missiles to the fight, plus all of the mechanics about reloading, etc. simply complicated the game turn too much.