OTU Only: Regina's Fleet - your thoughts

[robject]

How many warships (and what sizes and costs), in your opinion, does the world Regina support in 1105?


By "support" I mean buy, pay for, maintain, and staff (with training etc). You may assume that this is not the same as "build".


Some data points to think about:

* Regina has a population in the hundreds of millions.
* It's classified 'Rich'.
* It has a manufacturing TL of 12.
* It's the capital of the Regina subsector.
* It's on the border of the Imperium.
* It has (some) strategic value, though some worlds are more strategically important (Efate and Rhylanor for instance).
* It has TL15 "neighbors" -- e.g. Rhylanor, an Industrial high pop world, from where it may buy TL15 ships.


Some things to ponder:

* Does it only support a colonial fleet?
* Does the Imperial Navy support its own ships and fortresses, putting "free" defenders around Regina?


Plus all sorts of other considerations I've missed.

 

[robject]

Okay - figure that Regina supports stationed or visiting fleets (like the 193rd). So they count - for the time they're there.

The 193rd has a high numbers of non jump capable monitors, serviced and redeployed by tenders. There is a single BatRon held at Frenzie, with much of the mobile assets being lighter units such as destroyers and light cruisers.

and more generally

A numbered fleet, depending on its mission, may have between two and ten squadrons amounting to between 50 and 200 ships counting combat vessels and major auxiliaries, but excluding scouts, couriers, and minor escorts. Numbered fleets are commanded by fleet admirals.

Within those parameters (if correct) then it is safe to assume that Regina supports at least between 50 and 200 "Battle-Class" big ships.

Or, if you prefer, supports a Naval Base capable of supporting a Numbered Imperial Fleet (regardless about whether or not every naval base is capable of doing this, the one at Regina apparently is).


I suppose you could also throw in the "subsector fleet", although that could be a shared burden with Efate.

 

[McPerth]

Known facts:

IIRC in FFW game Regina has 2 J1 (remember FFW still has Regina as TL 10, so J1 is the máximum it can achieve) cruiser squadrons as planetary fleet and 10 SDB factors.

Also, from JTAS news in JTAS issue 9, page 6:

With all naval personnel at Regina Naval Base were put on full readiness, all ten heavy system defense boats <snip>

So, it seems that its heavy SDB has only 10 hulls (monitors, I guess).

I see there's quite a doubt cast on FFW figures, as pop multiplier 1 is always assumed and, even if so, numbers are quite small, but I guess it's canon too...

 

[rancke]

How many warships (and what sizes and costs), in your opinion, does the world Regina support in 1105?

Population: 700 million.
Per capita income: 16,000 (TL12) x 1.6 (Rich) = Cr25,600

(Regina has gotten tagged with Pa and Ph trade codes. Do they affect per capita income?)

GWP: 700,000,000 x Cr25,600 = Cr17,920,000,000,000 = MCr17,920,000
Military budget: 3% of GWP = MCr537,600.

(Note that this could be a major finagle factor. The average military budget for Imperial worlds is 3%, but it's quite concievable that a world as exposed to the Zhodani threat as Regina could use 5 or 6%.)

Remitted to the Imperium: 30% = MCr161,280.
Remaining: MCr376,320.

Army/Navy split budget 40/60. (Another potential finagle factor).

Navy budget: MCr225,792.
Naval budget supports 10 times worth of ships = MCr2,257,920.

A lot of that would be spent on system defenses. You could justify quite a low number of jump-capable squadrons. I would probably take the number of Reginan squadrons in FFW (is that one or two? I forget) and multiply that by seven.

How many of them would be IN hand-me-downs or bought from Efate or Rhylanor is another question.

{Regina] has a manufacturing TL of 12.

Regina's space TL has to be 13, since it can build J4 ships.

* It has TL15 "neighbors" -- e.g. Rhylanor, an Industrial high pop world, from where it may buy TL15 ships.

It's possible (though by no means provable) that Efate has a space TL of 15.

Some things to ponder:

* Does it only support a colonial fleet?

Regina would support its own defense fleet with its own money, than you very much. The Duchy would support a subsector navy assuming it gets a decent cut of the Imperial tax money.

* Does the Imperial Navy support its own ships and fortresses, putting "free" defenders around Regina?

The IN would support the fleet stationed in Regina subsector, so that would be a yes.


Hans

 

[robject]

I will muse, for a moment, on monitors and tenders.

Question for everyone: What makes a monitor different from a battle rider? Partial potential answer: a slower tender.

OK, the 193rd has monitors and their tenders. If I were to think of the Empress Troyhune, then I'm thinking of 50,000 ton monitors carried by a million-ton tender.

Supposing a million-ton Jump-3 Maneuver-1 tender (i.e. not fast enough to be a Battle Tender), then I see upwards of 500,000 tons for carrying monitors. Assuming irregular monitors with a bounding cylinder of 80kt, that's six riders. About right.

 

[rancke]

The 193rd has a high numbers of non jump capable monitors, serviced and redeployed by tenders. There is a single BatRon held at Frenzie, with much of the mobile assets being lighter units such as destroyers and light cruisers.

Why would an Imperial fleet have any system defense vessels at all?!? Battleriders assigned to tenders, yes, but system defense is not the IN's job.

Within those parameters (if correct) then it is safe to assume that Regina supports at least between 50 and 200 "Battle-Class" big ships.

The canonical term is 'combat vessel'.


Hans

 

[rancke]

I will muse, for a moment, on monitors and tenders.

Question for everyone: What makes a monitor different from a battle rider?

A monitor is designed for system defense and is not assigned to a tender.

A battlerider is designed to be carried by a tender (and is thus very unlikely to be an asteroid design ),


Hans

 

[robject]

So, it seems that its heavy SDB has only 10 hulls (monitors, I guess).

So, share with me your thoughts on the ships that Regina supports. Would you agree with your analysis of FFW, that Regina has only 10 (monitor) hulls (ignoring the likelihood of owning small ships of course)?

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[robject]

Naval budget supports 10 times worth of ships = MCr2,257,920.

A lot of that would be spent on system defenses. You could justify quite a low number of jump-capable squadrons. I would probably take the number of Reginan squadrons in FFW (is that one or two? I forget) and multiply that by seven.

So, per McPerth's post, 7 x 10 = 70 monitors?

Regina would support its own defense fleet with its own money, than you very much.

Is that the 70 hulls inferred above?

The Duchy would support a subsector navy assuming it gets a decent cut of the Imperial tax money.

And how big is that navy? And does this tax money come from the subsector? How much of that money comes from Regina?

The IN would support the fleet stationed in Regina subsector, so that would be a yes.

This includes the naval base, right? Did we finally settle "who owns the naval bases" question? I'd assumed it was Imperial of course. Then those entries about Porozlo in 76 Patrons made it sound local... but maybe not.

And of course, what about the meta-question: who supports the Imperial Navy supporting the Naval Base? Long-haul freighters from Capital?


OK, you've shown your work. So what's your numbers and types breakdown, then? Give me your bottom line.

 

[rancke]

So, per McPerth's post, 7 x 10 = 70 monitors?

No, 14 jump-capable squadrons. Probably J3 but possibly J4.

Is that the 70 hulls inferred above?

No, the logic was that the money can either be spent on ships or on boats. If you spend it on about 100 cruisers (14 squadrons with 6 or 8 ships each (averaging 7) would be 98) whatever remains goes to system defenses. Monitors and orbital fortresses and that sort of thing.

And how big is that navy? And does this tax money come from the subsector?

It comes (if it comes) from the 30% the Imperium gets from each world in the subsector (Actually, there's a complication there, since the duchy includes several bits outside the Regina subsector). If the Imperium keeps it all to fund the IN, the duchy can't afford any substantial navy. If the Imperium lets the duchy keep half, it can fund quite a decent duchy navy.

This includes the naval base, right? Did we finally settle "who owns the naval bases" question? I'd assumed it was Imperial of course. Then those entries about Porozlo in 76 Patrons made it sound local... but maybe not.

I don't think any of us (except maybe you) has the authority to settle it. However, the conclusion I came to was that those naval bases marked in the UWPs were Imperial bases and that any world with a fleet will have equivalent facilities of its own.

And of course, what about the meta-question: who supports the Imperial Navy supporting the Naval Base? Long-haul freighters from Capital?

It's much simpler than that. Regina gives the Imperium a check for its military taxes. The Imperium use the money to buy support from Regina for the ships it has stationed there. Maybe it buys some TL13 transports from Regina. Or uniforms or ration packs. The main point is that it spends most of those taxes on Regina.

OK, you've shown your work. So what's your numbers and types breakdown, then? Give me your bottom line.

I never did get any further than this.


Hans

 

[robject]

No, 14 jump-capable squadrons. Probably J3 but possibly J4.

[about 100 cruisers]

... whatever remains goes to system defenses. Monitors and orbital fortresses and that sort of thing.

Okay, you did postulate a number. Perhaps a baseline, a starting point. Thank you.

[Funding for a subsector navy] comes (if it comes) from the 30% the Imperium gets from each world in the subsector ... If the Imperium keeps it all to fund the IN, the duchy can't afford any substantial navy. If the Imperium lets the duchy keep half, it can fund quite a decent duchy navy.

Okay, got that.

I don't think any of us (except maybe you) has the authority to settle it.

I'll quickly deny that, and so would many others.

I suspect Marc knows how he wants it to work, though I don't know if he's fully articulated that position, ever. It just takes some tactical brain-picking. The right sort of questions, geared to engage his brain. Hmmmmm.

[How does the Imperial Navy support its Naval Base?][It's simple]: Regina gives the Imperium a check for its military taxes. The Imperium use the money to buy support from Regina for the ships it has stationed there.

Heh! Yes, I think you're right.

I never did get any further than this.

It's somewhere, at least.


And, your numbers estimate BCr 500 to TCr 1 spent towards various navies.

 

[McPerth]

I will muse, for a moment, on monitors and tenders.

Question for everyone: What makes a monitor different from a battle rider? Partial potential answer: a slower tender.

OK, the 193rd has monitors and their tenders. If I were to think of the Empress Troyhune, then I'm thinking of 50,000 ton monitors carried by a million-ton tender.

Supposing a million-ton Jump-3 Maneuver-1 tender (i.e. not fast enough to be a Battle Tender), then I see upwards of 500,000 tons for carrying monitors. Assuming irregular monitors with a bounding cylinder of 80kt, that's six riders. About right.

IMHO it's just a mission naming, not a ship class meaning. So, Nolikian assigned to a tender would be a Battle Rider, while this same ship assigned to system defense would be seen as a Monitor.

Off course, that would lead to some design variations, as a Monitor can be made customized (one in a class), and so be planetoid (wither buffered or not) configuration, while Battle Riders, to make the best use of their tender, must be standarized designs, so no palentoid configuration can be used (as there ar not two equal plaentoids).

So, share with me your thoughts on the ships that Regina supports. Would you agree with your analysis of FFW, that Regina has only 10 (monitor) hulls (ignoring the likelihood of owning small ships of course)?

Well, I'm not sure. I have never run the numbers as Hans does, but only 10 heavy hulls for such an important planet in a hot border seems quite low to me.

Nonetheless, Regina is a subsector Capital and as such I asume it to be the headaquarters of the Imperial Fleet on it (the 193^th IIRC), so its planetary fleet being just an auxiliary for this IN fleet...

After all, in this sense (and keeping all the diferences due to communications, detection capabilities, etc) I'd think on Regina as Hawaii in being the main naval base to cover a lot of unowned territory (the demilitarized zone in SM) that borders with posible hostile countries that gives it more importance than its population and economic power would.

Now make those same questions about Hawaii NG (as Iguess it has no NG fleet, and, not being US citizen, I'm not sure about if US countries have state Coast Guard or just the Federal one)...

 

[flykiller]

A monitor is designed for system defense and is not assigned to a tender.

why build a monitor when you could just mount the weapons on the planet itself? the cost of every monitor could support ten spinal mounts on the planet's surface.

 

[robject]

... I'd think on Regina as Hawaii in being the main naval base to cover a lot of unowned territory (the demilitarized zone in SM) that borders with posible hostile countries that gives it more importance than its population and economic power would.

THAT is a very informative and useful comment. Thank you.

 

[McPerth]

why build a monitor when you could just mount the weapons on the planet itself? the cost of every monitor could support ten spinal mounts on the planet's surface.

To try to intercept incoming fleets before they can attack the planet itself (and so avoiding colateral damages)?

To patrol the Gas Giants and deny then to enemy fleets (that arrive short in fuel) refuelling capabilities?

 

[wbyrd]

why build a monitor when you could just mount the weapons on the planet itself? the cost of every monitor could support ten spinal mounts on the planet's surface.

tactical maneuverability. a ground battery or stationary fortress has to wait until an enemy force approaches it's firing range/arc.

monitors can position themselves take advantage of "local" obstructions such as asteroids or moons, to force the enemy to come to them, or split off part of their force to pursue/engage separated forces. While the main body of a defense squadron takes on the enemies main force.

 

[flykiller]

tactical maneuverability

I understand the concept, but not why it applies here. surely the primary objective is the planet itself?

a ground battery or stationary fortress has to wait until an enemy force approaches it's firing range/arc

but they have to approach to achieve their military objective, certainly? and if one side is in range then the other side is in range too.

monitors can position themselves take advantage of "local" obstructions such as asteroids or moons

I've been running some vector games, and the "obstructions" seem irrelevant in the presence of m6 and vector.

 

[flykiller]

To try to intercept incoming fleets before they can attack the planet itself (and so avoiding colateral damages)?

if the defenders are paying for weapons while the fleet is paying for weapons and ships then the fleet will take far more damage than the defenders.

To patrol the Gas Giants and deny then to enemy fleets (that arrive short in fuel) refuelling capabilities?

if the gas giants have moons then the same circumstance pertains. why build monitor hulls to defend gas giants when the gas giants already have monitor hulls orbiting around them?

 

[flykiller]

that gives it more importance than its population and economic power would.

more likely it's just a suitable terran norm closest to the jewell subsector, and the duke likes living there rather than on industrialized jewell.

 

[McPerth]

if the defenders are paying for weapons while the fleet is paying for weapons and ships then the fleet will take far more damage than the defenders.

In military ships and installations, you're right, but the defender will lose in population and industrial capability if the battle is against the planet itself, instead that intercepting incoming ships.

Assuming your deep Meson Sites are deeper than my densiometers can reach, my only way to neutralize them would be picking their sensor suites, communications centers and power production/distribution. So, while my fleet can suffer, so does your military and (and probably the ones to afford it the worst) your population.

And in this case you cannot call it attrocity to bomb the planet, when the planet itself is firing against the orbiting fleet...

if the gas giants have moons then the same circumstance pertains. why build monitor hulls to defend gas giants when the gas giants already have monitor hulls orbiting around them?

But those moons are in "fixed" spots, so only being able to cover several parts of the orbit (at least with sensors, if MG are used not in fire fields) and already known and easy to pick, while the monitors canbe hiding either inside the atmosphere or among the asteroids/satellites/rocks/whatever can be orbiting the GG and the enemy cannot be sure of the opposition it will face before exiting jump.

While there's no stealth in space, ther may be in a GG atmosphere, and even if they will be detected sooner or latter, they can fire and damage your fleet in the meanwhile, wile it my defenses are in a moon they are more likely to be picked up sooner.

And while building deep meson sites may be cheaper than spaceships, I'm not so sure about maintenance and ressupply of those far installations in not unhabited moons, while the spaceships can go to their bases for them.