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Researching Imperial/subsector/colonial Navies

Another thing to consider is that several of the Batron counters in FFW must represent Battle Rider/Tender squadrons.
I can remember reading somewhere that the Imperial Navy went over to a Rider/Tender squadron doctrine for their regular forces as they re-equipped to a TL15 standard following the Third Frontier War and the Solomani Rim War.
 
Originally posted by Ben W Bell:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hal:
THAT was very much needed regards to ship types. Since I have to build from scratch many of the ship types (Funny how there aren't too many official ship designs rated for Tech levels 11, 12, and 13 in Traveller :( ), I will need to know what kinds and how many. Having a budget at all at least gets things rolling.

I've been looking at the CIA website showing the military budgets for various nations and I can see where some have a HIGHER percentage than what you might think is worth the while - but those high rates tend to be for countries with low populations or with a lower "tech base" than the bigger nations. Hmmmmmm
In case you don't have it, Traveller's Aide #7 Fighting Ships has a fair few designs for TLs 12 and 13 and one or two for TL11. PLus some more information on fleet structures and the like.

Also be carefuly with your assumption on Higher precentage military expenditure. At the beginning of 2001 the US had a military expenditure of 3.9% GDP, which is a huge portion.
</font>[/QUOTE]Question? How much material on fleet structures does TA7 have? What I'm looking to find is data on Subsector Navies as well as Imperial Navies. Since MegaTraveller's REBELLION seems to have some problems in it - I wonder if TA7 resolves any issues?

(and thanks for the heads up on the US expenditures - I presume you got that from the CIA fact files? ;) )
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Another thing to consider is that several of the Batron counters in FFW must represent Battle Rider/Tender squadrons.
I can remember reading somewhere that the Imperial Navy went over to a Rider/Tender squadron doctrine for their regular forces as they re-equipped to a TL15 standard following the Third Frontier War and the Solomani Rim War.
Did you find where you read the information on this yet? Much of what I'm reading from JTAS by Marc Miller seem to indicate that the Rider/Tender set up was ongoing still even on the eve of the Fifth Frontier war.
 
Infantry vs Armor? Man that is a can of worms. It would depend on what the basic concept of your force organization is. Are you orienting more towards offensive operations or defensive operations. Available manpower vs available trained/educated manpower. Even tech level and industrial base all factor into this.

A more offensive orientation requires a higher percentage of armor and mechanization. A more defensive orientation deosn't require anywhere nearly the percentage of armor and can have more light infantry.


If you look towards the US example you will find all sorts of contradictions and problems. You can't just look at the names of the units. For example through the 80s into the 90s the First Infantry Division had one of its combat brigades posted forward in Germany and the rest of the division was at Ft. Riley, KS. Now a typical US division has 3 combat brigades. An Infantry Division should have two infantry brigades and one armor brigade (each Brigade having two batalions of one type and one of the other type. Ie. Two infantry Batalions and one Armor Batalion makes up an Infantry Brigade.) First Infantry Division had one Infantry Brigade in Germany and Two Armor Brigades in Kansas.

BTW The Big Red One's mission was to be ready with 48 hours notice to move to Germany, and conduct a counter offensive against overwhelming numbers of Soviet armored and Mechanized forces that had broken through friendly lines within 9 days of receiving the notice. So it was set up as an armor division. the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 8th, and 24th infantry divisions were all set up as two Infantry brigades and one armor brigade, though the 2nd ID was (and still is) heavily reinforced and I am not sure of their mix. The 7th, 10th and 25th were all light infantry divisions and had little or no armor. The 9th was light motorized infantry and their organization changed almost constantly. The 82nd and 101st divisions were for the most part equipped even lighter than the light divisions. With the 82nd Airborne having some light tanks but very few other vehicles. The 101st Airborne (Air Assault) having virtually no ground transport or vehicles but more than makes up for it in helicopters. The Armor Divisions, (The 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 1st Cav) were organized like the 1st Infantry Division. Then there were the Calvary Regiments, Totally different organizations. Generally with two ground squadrons (The equivalent of batalions) each with almost as many tanks as a tank batalion and as many bradleys as an infantry batalion, and an air squadron with as much attack capability as the aircraft of a ground division. And of course the 6th Cav Brigade (Air Combat) with the equivalent of 3 air squadrons from an Armored Cav Regiment. That was the nuts and bolts of the US Army during the end of the Cold war. I may have missed a division or two, I know I left out a pair of independent Brigades and a Parachute regiment. All the Corps level assets and other toys but generally that was the mix.

The Soviet Army was set up on a 1 tank unit per 3 infantry units organization. (Plus a few independent tank units thrown in just to keep things interesting.) That organization held true all the way up to the Front level. Where you usually had 3 Combined Arms Armies and one Tank Army.(CAA had three Motorized Rifile Divisions and one Tank Division. Tank Army was the reverse.)

For purposes of your question as to percentages, for offensive operations the Infantry needs to be Mechanized and the Soviet Model is probably best. (It is how I tended to organize Merc units in Traveller.) The Soviet model also includes one Artillery unit in the mix. So a MR Division would have 3 MR Regiments, a Tank Regiment and an Artillery Regiment. (And that percentage is from BN level all the way to Front level.) Again with an occasional independent Artillery unit thrown in to keep things interesting.

On the other hand if your Battledress troops are also equipped with grav belts or equivalent. (And I truly believe that in this aspect T20 has it right, Battledress is a vehicle and can be armored to the same standards as a tank.) There is little need for more than a few tanks/anti-tank systems on the battlefield as support of the infantry. Or even Light Fighters instead of tanks.

At what tech level does the difference between tank and Aircraft and spacecraft disappear? The Harrier, The A10, the Joint Strike Fighter, the Apache and the Havoc show that the day is quickly approaching.The next generation tank might yet be a helicopter.There already is no light tank in the US inventory.

None of this really answers the question but hopefully puts you in the right direction to asking the right questions so you can get the right force mix for the job at hand.


Originally posted by Hal:
Question? At my website, I included the GDP for each world in TL 12 (Traveller Tech 15) levels. Would it help to include other data as well? In other words, what kind of data would people like to see that might be helpful for their own thinking?
For example - Ground Forces indicates just how many Battalion equivalents there are available for each world. It also gives rules on building up the Military for each of those worlds based on Tech levels, populations, etc. If I were to include the Battalion equivents for the worlds - would that be helpful?

In general, if I do that - what would people consider to be a reasonable ratio of Infantry to Armored?

Just thinking aloud
 
Hi Bhoins,
If I can't have the answer
Having the data to form an answer is just as good. Thank you.

I just took a gander at the kind of damage a Grav tank can do to a ship like the Beowulf *shudder*. One shit that hits the Beowulf by an Intrepid will cause on average, one roll on the Major Damage chart. Place the armor in starports and they can do double duty with planetary defense systems against rowdy starship captains ;)
 
That number seems awfully low. In 1984 the Army paid me a $4,000 bonus to enlist, paid off $15,000 in student loans, part of my training was quoted at costing the tax payer $100,000. (That doesn't include transportation to the three training sites, basic or the part of AIT spent at Ft. Huachuca, AZ.) Just the 47 weeks in Monterey, CA. Now I was also told that we were the top 10% of the military, as far as training goes but that makes that $28,800 seem quite low. When you include Air Crew training, and officer training that number has to be way low. (At Ft. Riley they were one of three training sites for Advanced camp for ROTC cadets. One day of their training included a firepower display (It was done three different nights so each of the cadets could see it.) The cost of the firepower display, laughingly referred to as the million dollar minute, was about $8 million, each night. That was done three times at Ft. Riley, probably at the same time it was also done 3 times at Ft. Bragg and Ft. Lewis. I did some training of those cadets, (Introduction to Soviet equipment) As I recall there were roughly 2000 cadets cycled through my class.That would make the cost of the firepower display alone about $12,000 per cadet.

Hell they probably roll that cost into non-recruit training. So it wouldn't count. The bulk of the instruction was handled by reserve officers that were doing their two week summer camp so that is probably a different part of the budget... If you do it right training some of the MOSes would actually show a profit.
OMB is notorious at cooking the books so they can move money to different parts of the budget.


Originally posted by Hal:
Tidbit of interest...

Training costs in the year of 2000 (2001?) were on average across all services - $28,800 per man with roughly 33% allocated to equipment costs and/or managerial costs. The rest were wages and benefits. This pertains to the initial basic training costs - not the ongoing costs as time progresses.

How does this relate to Traveller? What I suspect I will do is calculate the average wage for militants in the Imperium - increase this value to include "benefits" and then multiply all of this factor by an additional third to derive a baseline "average training cost". Comments?
 
I can't find the exact reference yet, but here is something from FFW and The Spinward Marches Campaign.
The SMC details the 154th BatRon, which in FFW shares its characteristics (US-J4-6-2-8) with the 123rd, 186th and 187th BatRons.
Then there is the curious fact that BR642-BR646 and BR648-BR649 are J3 until damaged and then become J4 - representing either the loss of a rider or two or a misprint on the counters ;)
The same thing happens to BR501-BR505, BR507 and BR667 :confused:
 
Hi Peter,
I ran a comparison between the figures on your webpage regards to income and what GURPS GROUND FORCES lists for various pay grades. For example, in GURPS TRAVELLER, the pay scale for an O-10 is starting pay at 11,400 Cr per year up to 119,400 Cr per year (if the guy has been a general for 26 years!). This varies greatly with the figures you list on your site. Just out of curiosity, how did you arrive at the figures you give?
Also, as a perspective? I compared starting pay (ie pay for less than 2 years in a particular grade) against the US military. It varied across the board naturally, but the enlisted values for Traveller's pay scale were about 1/3rd those of the US values. US enlisted pay for E1's was 6 times that of Traveller E1 pay. E7's in the US were paid roughly 3.7 times that of the calculated GURPS TRAVELLER rates.
O1's were 6.6 times that of Traveller Pay rates, while 010's were paid nearly 8 Times the rate paid to Traveller grade O10.

So much for using a 3:1 ratio of US costs for Imperial costs :(

What I'd like to do? Is treat medical costs as being 25% of the BAQ and BAS plus pay values. (as suggested in the article I read earlier - by 2004, the percentage of healthcare costs versus the BAQ,BAS, & PAY ends up being about 50% rather than 25! I'm going to assume that the Imperium does NOT have problems with health insurance nor with litigation against doctors every time a patient dies or farts wrong...
 
Originally posted by Bhoins:
That number seems awfully low.

<snipped a lot of stuff>
For what it is worth, I found a section on Recruitment costs that I didn't mention
file_23.gif
The recruitment bonuses would have come under that heading. As for the cost of $28,800 figure? I can't do anything except speculate on how they arrived at that figure. I suspect that this figure included the fact that if you have 100,000 people whose training costs only $5,000 per, and you have 100 people whose cost is $100,000 per, the average training cost will be 5,094.91 per person. Here, the average and the mean will clearly be two different numbers.
 
Originally posted by Hal:
Did you find where you read the information on this yet? Much of what I'm reading from JTAS by Marc Miller seem to indicate that the Rider/Tender set up was ongoing still even on the eve of the Fifth Frontier war.
I've found out where I read it, it's on page 42 of this document TRAVELLER HISTORY Collected by Clayton R Bush:
http://traveller.downport.com/images/history.pdf
Now I have to track down where in canon it was originally written :eek:
 
Last edited:
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I can't find the exact reference yet, but here is something from FFW and The Spinward Marches Campaign.
The SMC details the 154th BatRon, which in FFW shares its characteristics (US-J4-6-2-8) with the 123rd, 186th and 187th BatRons.
Then there is the curious fact that BR642-BR646 and BR648-BR649 are J3 until damaged and then become J4 - representing either the loss of a rider or two or a misprint on the counters ;)
The same thing happens to BR501-BR505, BR507 and BR667 :confused:
Are any of those "Colonial" Squadrons?
 
Hi Guys,
Chris may be right about the Per Capita Income already being TL12 based. I ran a prelim analysis of the numbers based on my spreadsheet for my methodology of correcting for Exchange rates.
The sum total of all the GDP for the subsector of Lunion (in my way mind you) was 252,388,650.51 Mcr CrImp. Using the striker rules of applying only 3% of the GDP to a military budget, and of that - 33% goes to the Imperials, I get the following numbers:

3% of the GDP for Lunion's subsector is 7,571,659.52 MCr.

1/3rd that (33%) sent on up to the Imperials is 2,498,647.64 MCr.

Assuming a 50/50 split between Navy and other forces, the Navy would have 1,249,323.82 MCr. A single Kokkirrak Class Dreadnaught at 273,126 MCr would be nearly 20% of Lunion's budget!

I'm going to recompute based on Christopher's statement and see what that turns out to be.
 
From "The Battle fleets of the Marches" by MWM, JotTAS no. 9, page 43:
Colonial squadrons tend to be battleships, to defend local systems, and to allow an escape when overwhelmed. Regular squadrons tend to be battleriders, for maximum striking power in the offensive
 
Originally posted by thrash:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hal:
Assuming a 50/50 split between Navy and other forces, the Navy would have 1,249,323.82 MCr. A single Kokkirrak Class Dreadnaught at 273,126 MCr would be nearly 20% of Lunion's budget!
Be careful not to confuse purchase price with annual operations and maintenance cost. That figure for the Kokkirrak looks like a purchase price (don't have my books handy); its annual O&M cost should be ~10% of that, or only 2% of the Lunion annual budget.

On an earlier question: have you considered the distribution of armored and infantry units in FFW and I:E as a baseline? You could count up BE's from the unit strength factor, based solely on whether there's an track oval on the unit symbol or not. This glosses over combined arms formations (infantry units in armored formations and vice versa) but should be close enough at the level you're pursuing.
</font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for the warning regards purchase price versus operations cost. If the budget just misses being able to fund two Dreadnaught BatRons (ie 6 Dreadnaughts), then with things costing only 10% for operations and maintenance - the fleet could have up to 20 BatRons. That seems doable.

As for the ratio of Armored counters to Infantry counters to Jump troop counters (if they had them in FFW) - I'd dearly love to have them.

If possible too, I'd love to see what the relationship firepower wise is, between a BatRon versus CruRon for example.
 
One other thing to consider is the role of the various types of craft. BB/DN is designed to meet the enemy's line of battle and defeat it in combat. CAs are designed to screen your BB/DN, patrol, raid, interdict, heavy reconansance in force, protect commerce, raid commerce, planetary bombardment and be everywhere an enemy battleship isn't.
Destroyers are designed to protect the capital ships from smaller ships, especially fighters and to thicken missile defense, they are also designed to escort merchants, perform customs and safety inspections, scout, play courier and perform picket duty. A Destroyer Escorts and Corvettes are designed to thicken missile defense of the larger ships, escort convoys, kill fighters, picket systems, act as scouts and couriers, escort destroyers, perform routine customs and safety patrols. Tankers are designed to resupply a squadroin with fuel, possibly under fire and possibly in empty hexes. Colliers/Tenders are designed to replace expendables on squadrons, (ie. missiles) The only major ship type missing, generally considered a Capital Ship is the Carrier. Depending on which version of Traveller and YTU doctrine on the use of fighters it would determine what carriers are used for. In MTU they only have two uses, the first is to support Destroyers and escorts in customs patrols. The second and most important use is to support ground operations especially by Marines.

In MTU Imperial Marines are a Light Infantry force, similar to the Mobile Infantry of Heinlein's Starship Troopers (the book not the movie). Battle Dress Troops are the norm not the exception and are generally also equipped with Grav belts. (Now that I am messing with T20 the BattleDress is a vehicle and has two drive trains, legs and grav.) If they can call on a Cruiser/Carrier for Fire Support and/or Fighters for Close Air Support they don't really need armor. Drop capsules and Drop ships. (Generally a 50T high speed armored and armed cutter.) While I like the Recon Sled from TA6 those are the exception not the rule. Send in a flight of FH or FL first.


In MTU The Imperial Army is where the Armor is. (Influenced, a bit perhaps, by Warhammer 40K.) And they are set up primarily on the Soviet model. Though there are some units set up as light infantry for urban combat, mountain combat and other situations where armour isn't very useful.

Remember Grav Tanks are subject to wind, and other forces of nature. A shock wave from an explosion in an urban environment can blow a grav tank into a building. In urban combat armoured vehicles should still be tracked or be walkers. Ideally armed with a couple pairs of 50s or equivalent, a flamethrower and a demolition gun. And for some reason Traveller doesn't mention the one type of high population world popular in fiction and other game systems the Hive Planet. Where the planet or a major portion of it is a warren of tunnels and structures piled on top of each other creating mazes and enclosed spaces.

As you design your subsector military keep the expected mission in mind. An open country tank serves little useful purpose in a hive.
 
All good advice Bhoins - thanks.

What I'm going to need however, after all that good advice, are considerations of what a good ratio mix of escorts to main ships should be. For instance, if you have a CruRon of 2 Fleet Intruders - what kinds of escorts should it have? Should they be as fast as or faster than the ships they escort? Should there be an "official" ratio of 6 Fleet escorts for every 1 Destroyer? Should there be three Destroyers for every one Cruiser?

What good is it to have a fleet if the fleet can't even find the enemy for which it must battle or guard against? One thing I intend to do is create using GURPS VEHICLES, some variant missiles currently not present in the GURPS TRAVELLER Universe. The "concepts" of such missiles already exist in CT via Mayday, and the special insert for JTAS #23(?). Remote control missiles are already included in the GURPS TRAVELLER books. What is not present are the missiles that home in on radio transmissions. There are no inertial guidance missiles that are programmed to run on ballistic trajectories for X hours and then turn on Infrared homing sensors to target the first craft they can find that meet its targetting criteria. Imagine being a crew of an oiler enroute between its gas giant and home world when suddenly, without any real warning, 20 homing missiles slam into the ship. Why did they do this? Becase the first step towards making freighters more vulnerable to commerce raiding is to force the system to depend either on gas giant resources or turn their own precious water into fuel. On some worlds, this is a viable option - use local water for fuel sorces. On others however, this will not be a viable option and it will force ships to refuel at gas giants. THIS is where convoy duties will become important in a traveller universe (I must add the statement of IMHO or IMTU).
 
Designs for Ship classes required will be:

TL 10 Dreadnaughts
TL 10 Cruisers
TL 10 Destroyers
TL 10 Colliers/Tenders
TL 10 Repair ships
TL 10 Hospital Ships
TL 10 Destroyer Escorts
TL 10 Scouts/Picket Craft
TL 10 Troop Transports
TL 10 Armored Transports

Hmm - I just realized something. How can a TL 10 subsector Navy be responsible for manning TL 12 Troop transport ships?
 
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