Rifle mini-grenades

[Carlobrand]

The Spinward Marches in particular, but likely other settings as well, presents an interesting challenge for planetary militaries defending against potential ground-force attacks. Tech levels are, if you'll excuse the pun, all over the map. Most significant is that both the Imperium and the Zhodani troops are in combat armor or battledress - armor value 18 in Striker/MT-speak. This renders the primary non-energy infantry weapon at TL12 and below essentially useless. Infantry opponents can respond with 40mm rifle grenades but, while very effective, those are not light, and the individual trooper can only carry a few before needing to drop other elements of their kit to make room for more ammunition. Armor improvement also means rifle grenades are less effective against the usual vehicles accompanying Imperial/Zho infantry, so the 40mm grenade is on the one hand heavy and overpowered for infantry targets and less useful against vehicle targets.

Add to this that energy weapons are very expensive, that a planetary military might not see targets worthy of such weapons for decades at a time, and that lesser equipment is more than adequate against the typical circumstances they will face between such wars, and there is strong incentive for planetary governments on a budget to find lower cost ways of equipping their regulars and assigning the more expensive weapons and armor to squad support troops and elite or colonial units. (Colonial in this case being the portion of their forces made available for off-world transport in support of Imperial forces. I figure planetary regulars will be equipped with combat environment suits and slug-throwers unless it's a balkanized world with a lot of conflict going on.)

To that end, I've extrapolated stats on light antipersonnel rifle grenades based on the existing Striker/MT equipment, which includes such canon HEAP rounds as the 10mm snub pistol round, the 10mm Assault Rocket Launcher round, and the range of 40mm rifle grenades.

TL8 30mm RAM rifle grenade: 0.16 kg., Cr6, eff. 250m. (18), long 370 m. (18), extr. 500 m. (18)
TL9 25mm RAM rifle grenade: 0.12 kg., Cr6, eff. 250m. (17), long 370 m. (17), extr. 500 m. (17)
TL10 25mm RAM rifle grenade: 0.15 kg., Cr6, eff. 370m. (20), long 750 m. (20), extr. 1500 m. (20)
TL11-12 20mm RAM rifle grenade: 0.1 kg., Cr4, eff. 370m. (18), long 750 m. (18), extr. 1500 m. (18)
TL13+ 20mm RAM rifle grenade: 0.1 kg., Cr4, eff. 370m. (19), long 750 m. (19), extr. 1500 m. (19)

I did full extrapolations but these were the ones that hit my target, rest weren't worth pursuing. The ones here provide a reasonably light-weight way of giving planetary infantry some means of countering combat-armored Imperial or Zho infantry (depending on their allegiance).

Also did some extrapolation on the snub pistol: TL8 pen=6 (canon), TL9 pen=8, TL10 pen=10*, TL11-12 pen=11, TL13+ pen=12
*identical to the TL10 10mm assault rocket launcher

Also some 18mm/12-gauge shotgun rounds - there's a real-world experimental version (TL7?) called the Frag-12, one of the variants is a HEAP round stated to be able to penetrate half an inch of steel, so penetration of 5. Same effective and long range, extreme range is 150 meters (it's fin-stabilized for range). I'm not sure how to price it. Also not sure whether it's worth doing a full extrapolation, but at TL13 it can yield a penetration of 17, which on the one hand would be useful for adventurers but on the other might be quashed by the Imperium as a potential threat to military forces, so I'm not sure where I stand on that - maybe a black market item being manufactured out of Vargr space and smuggled in.

 

[casquilho]

If armor penetration is the goal, could you also look at discarding sabot rounds? A SciFi version of the SLAP rounds?

Seems like it might be another avenue to greater penetration, but I am not claiming to be some sort of expert, just thinking of other answers that may exist for the problem you raise.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

I will take a look later and give you my thoughts.

 

[whartung]

These won't really help.

It's well known that artillery is what kills infantry, not rifles. Rifles are used to suppress infantry, keep their heads down so to speak, while others can maneuver for advantage, and then call in artillery.

The grenades in this case are not area weapons, but armor piercing single shot weapons. Since the targets are hard, the grenades are no longer effective as a "near miss". So, they're even less useful in a suppressive role.

They're effective against light armored vehicles, but, routinely, infantry outnumbers vehicles by at least an order of magnitude.

While one on one, these grenades be effective against a single target. The effectiveness in the large is likely to not be particularly good.

 

[kilemall]

These won't really help.

It's well known that artillery is what kills infantry, not rifles. Rifles are used to suppress infantry, keep their heads down so to speak, while others can maneuver for advantage, and then call in artillery.

The grenades in this case are not area weapons, but armor piercing single shot weapons. Since the targets are hard, the grenades are no longer effective as a "near miss". So, they're even less useful in a suppressive role.

They're effective against light armored vehicles, but, routinely, infantry outnumbers vehicles by at least an order of magnitude.

While one on one, these grenades be effective against a single target. The effectiveness in the large is likely to not be particularly good.

It’s the sort of weapon that counts in a ship corridor not dirt side.

Except as cluster munitions, then they hurt, especially the seeking kind.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

It’s the sort of weapon that counts in a ship corridor not dirt side.

Except as cluster munitions, then they hurt, especially the seeking kind.

I would never use a AP Grenade in a Ship Corridor …

 

[kilemall]

I would never use a AP Grenade in a Ship Corridor …

If like RL ships, absolutely. In game full on 40mm, close to blowing holes in hulls, or worse spewing hydrogen especially into a pressurized atmo hall.

But the snub pistol level stuff is relatively safe.

 

[Carlobrand]

These won't really help.

It's well known that artillery is what kills infantry, not rifles. Rifles are used to suppress infantry, keep their heads down so to speak, while others can maneuver for advantage, and then call in artillery.

The grenades in this case are not area weapons, but armor piercing single shot weapons. Since the targets are hard, the grenades are no longer effective as a "near miss". So, they're even less useful in a suppressive role.

They're effective against light armored vehicles, but, routinely, infantry outnumbers vehicles by at least an order of magnitude.

While one on one, these grenades be effective against a single target. The effectiveness in the large is likely to not be particularly good.

That argument suggests infantry don't need rifles either. I suspect, if I take the rifles away, I'd have a hard time persuading the infantry to deploy against an armed opponent.

I suspect the same might apply if I try to field riflemen against opponents they can't hurt. Yes, I need the artillery to kill the enemy - likely CBMs since traditional fragments won't do much against an armor value of 18. I also need my troops to take the field and call in the artillery, which they are more likely to do if they feel they have some alternative if the enemy gets too close. Some cheap but effective alternative.

Push comes to shove, those PGMPs and lasers are single-shot too, so they are similarly not particularly good other than having less of an ammunition issue. Shrinking the grenade makes that specific problem a wee bit less pressing for the rifleman.

 

[Rupert]

I would suggest that, if such grenades are generally available, and are useful, TL14+ battledress will either be even rarer issue than it already is (because it's damned expensive and only useful against under-equipped low TL opponents), or will have better levels of protection.

I don't see what's wrong with TL-14+ battledress, the cutting edge of personal protection, requiring support weapons to take down (though in MT shooters can do it with ordinary small arms anyway with good tactics, luck, and/or high skill). That's the point, really.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

The Spinward Marches in particular, but likely other settings as well, presents an interesting challenge for planetary militaries defending against potential ground-force attacks. Tech levels are, if you'll excuse the pun, all over the map. Most significant is that both the Imperium and the Zhodani troops are in combat armor or battledress - armor value 18 in Striker/MT-speak. This renders the primary non-energy infantry weapon at TL12 and below essentially useless. Infantry opponents can respond with 40mm rifle grenades but, while very effective, those are not light, and the individual trooper can only carry a few before needing to drop other elements of their kit to make room for more ammunition. Armor improvement also means rifle grenades are less effective against the usual vehicles accompanying Imperial/Zho infantry, so the 40mm grenade is on the one hand heavy and overpowered for infantry targets and less useful against vehicle targets.

Add to this that energy weapons are very expensive, that a planetary military might not see targets worthy of such weapons for decades at a time, and that lesser equipment is more than adequate against the typical circumstances they will face between such wars, and there is strong incentive for planetary governments on a budget to find lower cost ways of equipping their regulars and assigning the more expensive weapons and armor to squad support troops and elite or colonial units. (Colonial in this case being the portion of their forces made available for off-world transport in support of Imperial forces. I figure planetary regulars will be equipped with combat environment suits and slug-throwers unless it's a balkanized world with a lot of conflict going on.)

To that end, I've extrapolated stats on light antipersonnel rifle grenades based on the existing Striker/MT equipment, which includes such canon HEAP rounds as the 10mm snub pistol round, the 10mm Assault Rocket Launcher round, and the range of 40mm rifle grenades.

TL8 30mm RAM rifle grenade: 0.16 kg., Cr6, eff. 250m. (18), long 370 m. (18), extr. 500 m. (18)
TL9 25mm RAM rifle grenade: 0.12 kg., Cr6, eff. 250m. (17), long 370 m. (17), extr. 500 m. (17)
TL10 25mm RAM rifle grenade: 0.15 kg., Cr6, eff. 370m. (20), long 750 m. (20), extr. 1500 m. (20)
TL11-12 20mm RAM rifle grenade: 0.1 kg., Cr4, eff. 370m. (18), long 750 m. (18), extr. 1500 m. (18)
TL13+ 20mm RAM rifle grenade: 0.1 kg., Cr4, eff. 370m. (19), long 750 m. (19), extr. 1500 m. (19)

I did full extrapolations but these were the ones that hit my target, rest weren't worth pursuing. The ones here provide a reasonably light-weight way of giving planetary infantry some means of countering combat-armored Imperial or Zho infantry (depending on their allegiance).

Also did some extrapolation on the snub pistol: TL8 pen=6 (canon), TL9 pen=8, TL10 pen=10*, TL11-12 pen=11, TL13+ pen=12
*identical to the TL10 10mm assault rocket launcher

Also some 18mm/12-gauge shotgun rounds - there's a real-world experimental version (TL7?) called the Frag-12, one of the variants is a HEAP round stated to be able to penetrate half an inch of steel, so penetration of 5. Same effective and long range, extreme range is 150 meters (it's fin-stabilized for range). I'm not sure how to price it. Also not sure whether it's worth doing a full extrapolation, but at TL13 it can yield a penetration of 17, which on the one hand would be useful for adventurers but on the other might be quashed by the Imperium as a potential threat to military forces, so I'm not sure where I stand on that - maybe a black market item being manufactured out of Vargr space and smuggled in.

One you are on track with tackling the technological mismatch that can occur! Yes while artillery is the king of the battlefield, Infantry is the Queen. Just remember Artillery is now subject to counter battery fire and HK Drones. Batteries will now have to have an air defense section attached to survive and displace.

Consider this a RAM grenade being targeted by the Infantryman’s PEQ device / or fire and forget (Kinda like a miniature copperhead round). The XM25 brought some advanced capabilities to the battlefield that if it was ever fixed to be GI proof would be an asset to the Squad ( I don’t see them being deployed on the team level.

I have seen Rifle Grenades used in DF, but the majority of use is for covering dead space, and area effect.

I would have to say now with the new tactical Optics, the idea that infantry lethality is like it was in the old days is over.

 

[Condottiere]

I can't foresee the future of warfare, but lack of industrial capacity will devolve back to rifle armed infantry, eventually.

The question tends to be optimal loadout, unit and individual.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

I can't foresee the future of warfare, but lack of industrial capacity will devolve back to rifle armed infantry, eventually.

The question tends to be optimal loadout, unit and individual.

I think you misunderstood. The infantryman is more lethal then ever, the Car Gustav due to advances in munitions is now being heavily trained on. The rifle fight is back out to 500+ meters with the ammunition caliber going to 6.8mm, communications, night vision, MANPADS are advancing in scope and range.

 

[mike wightman]

Drones dropping mortar rounds are pretty effective vs infantry.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Drones dropping mortar rounds are pretty effective vs infantry.

And tanks….but the tech and GI proof anti drone weapons are starting to come on line … what has really changed is the effectiveness of infantry teams with ATGMs. There is reason that the old T-80s, T-72s, and T-64s are being modernized… certain Eastern European nation lost 3000 MBTs in two years of fighting. Electronic Warfare has returned ( ah the Old CEWI Battalions will be back soon).

 

[Rupert]

I think you misunderstood. The infantryman is more lethal then ever, the Car Gustav due to advances in munitions is now being heavily trained on. The rifle fight is back out to 500+ meters with the ammunition caliber going to 6.8mm, communications, night vision, MANPADS are advancing in scope and range.

Those 6.8mm rounds will not be general issue with full-power loads because they kick like a mule (and they put a lot of wear on the rifles, and are expensive). Full-power loads will be issue for designated marksmen, allowing them to use the same rifles (but with better optics), reducing logistics and training costs. The reduced power general issue rounds will give more reach than the current short-barrel 5.56mm carbines have, but any half-decent rifle with modern optics will do that (assuming well-trained users, which is the biggest obstacle to effective infantry fire past a couple of hundred metres).

The best reason to drop 5.56mm in favour of something with a bit more grunt isn't, in my opinion, range. It's modern body armour, and it's quite possible that a weapon system suitable for general issue just won't have the performance to reliably penetrate modern body armour, at least in the fully protected areas.

 

[Condottiere]

Comes down to economics, much like the rainbow underwear.

Also training.

Obtaining, maintaining, training, sustaining, retaining, eventually adds up.

 

[McPerth]

Tech levels are, if you'll excuse the pun, all over the map. Most significant is that both the Imperium and the Zhodani troops are in combat armor or battledress - armor value 18 in Striker/MT-speak. This renders the primary non-energy infantry weapon at TL12 and below essentially useless.

So, you're saying over 2 TLs difference is decisive? Not surprising, to say the least...

Comparing TL14 forces with TL11 ones is like comparing current TL (I assume late 7 to early 8) with later TL 4 or early TL5 (late Victorian, early WWI era). Only overhelming numbers could compensate those TL differences (and even then, not sure they fully will).

As I said in another thread, I don't know Striker, but in MT pinpoint fire and automatic damage for high rolls would make those BD equiped troops far from so safe, and their losses would mount over time (Of course, those same rules, mostly the automatic damage for high rolls, would make a good bowman (let's say Robin Hood) able to incapacite a BD equiped trooper with one arrow...)

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Those 6.8mm rounds will not be general issue with full-power loads because they kick like a mule (and they put a lot of wear on the rifles, and are expensive). Full-power loads will be issue for designated marksmen, allowing them to use the same rifles (but with better optics), reducing logistics and training costs. The reduced power general issue rounds will give more reach than the current short-barrel 5.56mm carbines have, but any half-decent rifle with modern optics will do that (assuming well-trained users, which is the biggest obstacle to effective infantry fire past a couple of hundred metres).

The best reason to drop 5.56mm in favour of something with a bit more grunt isn't, in my opinion, range. It's modern body armour, and it's quite possible that a weapon system suitable for general issue just won't have the performance to reliably penetrate modern body armour, at least in the fully protected areas.

Rubbish, I have an AR-10 6.8 and an AR-15 6.5 Grendel. They don’t kick like mules. The new battle rifle ( not the DRM Rifle) coming online is in contrast, the new 6.8mm ammunition has an effective lethal range of 600+ meters, a higher velocity, more energy hitting being transferred to the target, and a lighter cartridge. Also considering the new muzzle break / suppressor and recoil tech … the recoil is over exaggerated. Mind you this is that generation that grew up 5.56mm ( I was one of them). But the first thing that i recognized was out of an army 9 man squad only 3 could engage targets at 300m effective and of those only one could use precision fires. I rather the army use the 6.5 Grendal. BC is in a sweet spot and it shoots through cars body armor, current gen of ballistic helmets and still hits harder that most 7.62mm rounds at 500m.

 

[warwizard]

There is a misconception that bullet size is the key to penetration and lethality. I have seen a 70 grain 3800 FPS .22 cal bullet punch a hole through 1/2" steel plate, the bullet did not survive contact, but punched a 1/2" dia 1/4" thick billet of steel through a brick and 2X4 and broke a second brick and was stopped. The 6.5 creedmore does the same, but with a 150 gr bullet, and can stay supersonic past 1200 yards. So TL 8 hi velocity rounds that vaporize against 5 to 8 armor factor plates and can push fragments of armor through the target. Then you have ETC rounds with even higher velocities, need an alloy that does not vaporize till it hits something solid.

 

[Rupert]

Rubbish, I have an AR-10 6.8 and an AR-15 6.5 Grendel. They don’t kick like mules. The new battle rifle ( not the DRM Rifle) coming online is in contrast, the new 6.8mm ammunition has an effective lethal range of 600+ meters, a higher velocity, more energy hitting being transferred to the target, and a lighter cartridge. Also considering the new muzzle break / suppressor and recoil tech … the recoil is over exaggerated. Mind you this is that generation that grew up 5.56mm ( I was one of them). But the first thing that i recognized was out of an army 9 man squad only 3 could engage targets at 300m effective and of those only one could use precision fires. I rather the army use the 6.5 Grendal. BC is in a sweet spot and it shoots through cars body armor, current gen of ballistic helmets and still hits harder that most 7.62mm rounds at 500m.

I was talking about the new rifle with the shiny super-high pressure rounds. It's got the same recoil impulse as 7.62x51mm and that means if it's not in a heavy battle rifle (or in a machinegun) it's going to have more recoil than most shooters can handle.

Agreed on the break-down of useful shooters. Another thing is that most people won't spot an enemy that's making some effort at not being obvious (i.e. in camo, not out in the open, not moving much) at over 200m, often less, especially if the sh*t is flying.