RULE 68A - A Ref's Guide to the Classic Traveller Task System

[Mithras]

Well, I hate to argue, especially on the Old Internet, but the far right column of the SMG has 3D under 'Wound Inflicted'. The Traveller Book repeated refers to wounds, wounded characters and characters not reducd to 0 in any characteristics being 'lightly wounded'.

It might jar with your sensibilities, or not match the way you interpret CT, but CT is a roll-to-hit game. I think your stretching your ideas too thinly here. Wounding has never been equated with 'fatigue, shock and stamina' as it was with HP in AD&D at times!

As I said above, you have to consider damage in the entire evaluation. The SMG does 3D damage. So, two hits, under the autofire throw would hit, penetrate, and damage the unarmored cop.

Let's say your unarmored cop has physcical stats of 987.

First roll of 3D damage, under the first blood rule, is taken from one stat randomly. Let's say that damage was 1, 1, 3. That's 5 points of damage, rolled randomly, taken from the cop's END.

Now, his stats are 982

OK, second roll of 3D damage is made, rolling 4, 5, 1.

Now, the defender can choose where to allot the dice. He takes 4 points from his DEX, 5 points from his STR, and 1 point from his END.

The cop's stats are now: 441

What really happened? Was the cop actually shot?

No, he wasn't.

 

[Supplement Four]

I think your stretching your ideas too thinly here. Wounding has never been equated with 'fatigue, shock and stamina' as it was with HP in AD&D at times!

So, you think if I walk up to you, fire a burst from my SMG at you, and roll all 1's, doing 3 points of damage, lowering your 777 stats to 477, that what is being represented here is the target being actually shot?

With a bandaid from a medic, the character is fully healed in 30 minutes.

Do gunshot wounds heal in 30 minutes?

 

[atpollard]

With a bandaid from a medic, the character is fully healed in 30 minutes.

Do gunshot wounds heal in 30 minutes?

Of course not, you need to sew them up first - like Rambo.

 

[Supplement Four]

Well, I hate to argue, especially on the Old Internet, but the far right column of the SMG has 3D under 'Wound Inflicted'.

See, I think you're taking the term, 'Wound Inflected' too literally. "Wounds" in Traveller, are points of damage. In D&D, a longsword does 1d8 "Damage", but that doesn't necessarilly mean the sword struck and cut the target.

As I said above, the Traveller combat system (like most rpg combat systems) has a layer of abstract quality to it.

We have to use common sense to interpret the outcome.

Revisit the "Wounding And Death" section of the Traveller Book. "Any wound points applied to a character which do not reduce more than one physical characteristic to zero are considered minor wounds."

That's a quote, straight out of the rules.

So, if a SMG is fired at a target, and damage is such that no physical stat is reduced to zero....then what does that mean?

According to the wound definition I quoted above, it means the target suffered a minor wound. Is a gunshot wound a minor wound? No, it's not, not unless it's a light graze.

So...

Anytime a character takes damage that does not reduce two stats to zero, then the damage is considered a minor wound.

We have to fill in the blanks and say what that minor wound is. Maybe it's a light bullet graze. Maybe its a bruise from armor taking the bullet impact. Maybe it's strained muscles. Maybe it's a scratch. Maybe it's "battle fatigue". Maybe it's light shock.

The wound is serious enough that it will take three days to heal naturally. Or, a medic can give you a shot (or some other type of medical care) and make you 100% healthy in about half an hour.

 

[Mithras]

So, you think if I walk up to you, fire a burst from my SMG at you, and roll all 1's, doing 3 points of damage, lowering your 777 stats to 477, that what is being represented here is the target being actually shot?

With a bandaid from a medic, the character is fully healed in 30 minutes.

Do gunshot wounds heal in 30 minutes?

No they don't.

Where do the rules say that?

Page 34 of Book 1 seems to say that minor wounds require 3 days plus skilled medical attention to return to full strength. That's antibiotics, anti-inflammatories, stitches etc. for a minor flesh wound with lots of blood.

Article: Medical Treatment in Issue 11 of the Journal is canon, but may not be accepted on the basis that someone added to the rules rather than used the rules 'as is', but this article says that "if a lightly wounded character does not recieve medical treatment from a medic 1 in 1Dx10 minutes, there is a possibility the wound will become more severe. Roll 2D for 7+ for (it) to deteriorate an additional 1D wound points. If, on this roll, a 12 is rolled - a catastrophic trauma has occured, and the character dies immiediately."

Agreed, these aren't the main rules, so can be ignored, but they do show, that they support the Book 1 version of requiring medical attention before wounds can be recovered.

I love CT, I want to run a game now! I've run it for two decades, I love it! But I can't see it being touted as a game that it isn't, a super-version, super-lite, super-slick etc. Its got a problem here and there, but its mostly great!

The armour DMs are a wonky mistake that can be easily fixed rather than metagamed away.

 

[Mithras]

So, are we discussing here, what exactly constitutes a 'minor wound'?

Well in this case you are free to interpret a minor wound however you like. I've read enough Vietnam After Action Reports to suggest that there is ineed such a thing as a bullet wound that does not reduce a man to unconsciousness. At Ia Drang one PFC had three fingers shot off and he survived, and near An Khe, the same year there was a US soldier who was shot in the neck (!!!!), but continued to fight.

If you want to use additional damage, such as glass fragments, brusing etc, then that all makes sense to me to. Though it seems that anyone attacked by a blade weapon or by auto fire suffers your 'additional side effect damage' without getting cut or shot.

Perhaps I'm cruel, I add all that on top of the bullet damage!

Good gaming!

We have to fill in the blanks and say what that minor wound is. Maybe it's a light bullet graze. Maybe its a bruise from armor taking the bullet impact. Maybe it's strained muscles. Maybe it's a scratch. Maybe it's "battle fatigue". Maybe it's light shock.

 

[Supplement Four]

Page 34 of Book 1 seems to say that minor wounds require 3 days plus skilled medical attention to return to full strength. That's antibiotics, anti-inflammatories, stitches etc. for a minor flesh wound with lots of blood.

I've been using the Traveller Book for reference. The quote I mention above appears on pg. 47. The same quote appears in the Starter Traveller Charts Book, on pg. 7.

But, LBB1 does still address minor wounds, and you've read it wrong from your quote above.

Page 34 of LBB1 says, "A return to full strength for the character requires medical attention (a medical kit and an individual with at least Medical-1 skill), or three days rest."

That means either (1) medical attention, or (2) three days rest, is needed to recover fully.

Your quote above says "plus three days rest".

It looks to me as if, in the Traveller Book and Starter Traveller, a time limit (30 minutes) was assigned to how long that medical treatment should take.

If you're operating on the assumpting that Minor Wounds take medical attention and three days rest, I can understand why you have the position you do on wounds.

Take another look at your LBB1, and I think you'll see it's an either/or proposition. Medical healing or three days required for natural healing.

Article: Medical Treatment in Issue 11 of the Journal is canon, but may not be accepted on the basis that someone added to the rules rather than used the rules 'as is'...

I don't know that all of the optional rules and things that made it into the JTAS is considered "canon". I know some of it is (like the computer program rules, robots, Marc's discourse on jump drives, etc). I guess you have to look at who wrote it.

I've always kinda liked that article. But, I feel it's a bit too harsh and conflicts a bit with the definition of wounds in CT (the Traveller Book and Starter Traveller, as they seem to be a clearer explaination of the rules than what is in LBB1).

I love CT, I want to run a game now! I've run it for two decades, I love it!

I'm with you on that. I'm not running my game right now either. Mucho "missing" going on here on this side of the internet.

But I can't see it being touted as a game that it isn't, a super-version, super-lite, super-slick etc. Its got a problem here and there, but its mostly great!

Absolutely CT isn't perfect. But, I don't think I've mis-interpreted anything here, either.

You want to see me draw light on something that isn't perfect with CT combat? Well, how about the fact that, even with the first blood rule, most enemies will be hit with a minor wound (which means they aren't really shot at all...they just get knocked out a lot).

Obviously, that was a conscious choice to balance the game between "playable" and "realistic".

Gunshots should either miss entirely, with no effect on the target. Or, they should hit the victim (two stats at zero).

The way it happens in Classic Traveller, there are a lot of people out there getting "knocked out" in a gun fight.

 

[Supplement Four]

Obviously, that was a conscious choice to balance the game between "playable" and "realistic".

Gunshots should either miss entirely, with no effect on the target. Or, they should hit the victim (two stats at zero).

The way it happens in Classic Traveller, there are a lot of people out there getting "knocked out" in a gun fight.

I'm glad we're having this discussion, Paul, because it's making me think about this "problem" I illuminate above.

I wonder...house rule.

I think you might like this...as it goes a long way to making those "100% to-hit" rolls playable in a game.

What about ignoring gunshot damage unless enough damage is applied to the target that will reduce two of his stats to zero.

Gunshot damage that does not reduce two stats to zero is ignored.



Thus...a gunfight might look like this.

Baad Gyu fires, hitting Goode Gyu, doing 3D damage. Total of the damage throw is 8 points. Using the first blood rule, the damage is applied randomly to Goode's physical stats. The lucky random stat is Goode's END.

Goode's physical are 85A. This would reduce him to 852, so, since a gunshot wound hasn't been inflicted, the damage is ignored. Goode remains at 85A.

Melee fights will be different, as a character can be "worn down" in those types of fights.



Thing I like about this: Gunfights will be fun, with both sides firing and missing a lot. Gunshots, when considered a hit, will do serious damage to the victim.

Thing I don't like about this: Characters with exceptionally high stats will be virtually impossible to hit with a weapon like an automatic pistol.



Hmmm...the idea needs some work. But, it might be worth fleshing out.

 

[Mithras]

Despite the examples I gave above, and other RW examples I'm sure exist, I do like my gun combat to be quite deadly.

What I did years ago was to always assume that gunshots were 'first blood', the damage rolled was always applied to a single statistic.

OK, some characters were not reduced to 0, and I knew that in the RW this did happen. But with a 3D roll, and most characters having stats in the 2D range, more than not, a gunshot dropped a character - and I liked that. I saved the 'split' damage rule for blades and 'natural damage' such as falling and fire.

But of course I needed to reduce the chance of sustaining a wound a little to compensate, otherwise I'd have too many dead characters. Hence ditching all those heavy + armour DMs.

I suppose its all a matter of taste, expectations and enjoyment (I don't like 'playability, because I can't play alot of games others thing are VERY playable!).

(Just checked Book 1 - you are quite right! Medical attention OR 3 days rest).

 

[Supplement Four]

What I did years ago was to always assume that gunshots were 'first blood', the damage rolled was always applied to a single statistic.

Wow. You do like it deadly.

I'm in the middle. I like my players to respect gunfights, but I also like to play a lot of gunfights. Action is fun. And, I don't want to be rolling up a new character every game session.

I go, pretty much (a few house rules) as CT combat is written. Since minor wounds (no more than one stat at zero) heals very quickly according to the rules, that seems to be more like what you see in a computer game. Hit points go down, but heal quickly as the character rests a few moments (unless a line is passed...and that line is two stats being reduced to zero).

I find that a good balance. Characters can take damage, but its fairly inconsequential (in long-term damage terms) until two stats are at zero.

When two stats are at zero, as the rules say, it's a major wound. The character is shot, stabbed, burned badly...etc.

 

[Mithras]

Mmm, we did eventually create a 'cyberpunk' game using CT set on a dystopian Earth a la Escape from New York, and when Cyberpunk by R Talsorian came out, we were hooked. That was the type of combat we were after and my 'interpretation' of the rules gave us that flavour.

I heartily agree with your Rule 68A, however, I never considered a universal task system neccessary ...

We just had a great time.

Without players now, I have just discovered EVE online .. oh my god. Anyway, that's another thread!

 

[Mithras]

Back in those old campaigns, I'm pretty sure we did actually use negative armour DMs to soak up some of that first blood damage. Which matches well with your 68A rule.

These days, if I can persuade my sons to play, we'd use negative armour DMs on the to-hit roll.

 

[Supplement Four]

Just re-reading the 68A rule I wrote a few years ago. I've spotted the rule on a couple Traveller web sites.

I noticed this...

One character tosses an autopistol to another character. The Ref rules that the character making the toss needs to throw DEX or less on 2D. Failure means there is no chance for the opposite character to catch the pistol. The character trying to catch the pistol will throw the result of the throwing character's 2D throw, or less, on 2D, in order to catch the weapon, but he also receives a -3 DM if his DEX is higher than that number. So, Fred tosses to Thomas. Fred's DEX is 10, and the result of the 2D throw is 5. Thomas' DEX is 8. So, in order to catch the pistol, Thomas must throw 2D -3 for 5-. Or, in other words, he's throwing 2D for 8- in order to catch the pistol. Thomas' ability to "catch" the pistol is based on the quality of Fred's throw. (I just made this one up too...to give an elaborate example.)

It struck me that, today, I'd probably use this type of rule in the indicated situation: Fred (DEX-7) tosses his autopistol to Suzz (DEX-A).

For the throw, Fred rolls 2D for DEX or less. 2D for 7-.

If he fails, then Suzz has no chance of catching the tossed weapon because Fred's throw was so bad.

I'd allow a -2 DM per skill level on any skill that might improve Fred's throwing action.

The distance for the throw is figured by the number of dice thrown. If Suzz was closer, then it'd be a 1D for 7- toss. If Suzz was farther away, it would be a 3D for 7- toss.





If Fred does toss the weapon successfully, then the target number that Suzz needs to make in order to catch the weapon is whatever number Fred made on his toss. That way, the lower the number, the better the throw, the easier it is for Suzz to catch the weapon.

I like how that all flows.

X = Fred's modified successful toss.

For Suzz to catch the weapon, he must throw 2D for X or better. I'd use Rule 68A to give him a +2 DM since his DEX is A or better. I'd give a +1 DM to him if his DEX was 8+.



Example.

Fred has no skill that will improve his toss. Based on the distance, it's a 2D for DEX or less toss to throw the weapon at Suzz.

Fred rolls 2,3 for a total of 5.

Now, Suzz must roll 5+ on 2D, and can use a +2 DM for his DEX. That's a 3+ roll. If successful, Suzz catches the weapon.

 

[tancred]

S4, I've only just found this discussion, thanks to your thread necromancy.

The whole thread reminds me of why I decided to run TravellerHero, rather than teaching my players CT.
I personally love CT, although I always wondered about the combat system myself.
(I prefer Hero's personal combat system, but CT is vastly superior when it comes to designing vehicles.)

But it was just easier to run Hero (rather than teach CT), since I've been running it for my group for 20+ years now, and only one of my players has ever played Traveller before.

The funny thing is, though, that Rule 68A is basically how we use the Skills in Hero to play Traveller. In particular, not telling the players what the modifiers to their skill rolls is a HUGE part of every Hero game I run, and this is triply true for Traveller.

Thank you for Rule 68A; it helps spell out what I've been winging all this time.

 

[Supplement Four]

Thank you for Rule 68A; it helps spell out what I've been winging all this time.

Yessir. Glad you found it useful!

I'll admit that Rule 68A has been quite popular since I posted it here. It's been a while, but I used to get a few e-mails, here and there, from Traveller lovers digging the idea.

I didn't change anything about Classic Trav. All I did was provide a more stuctured way of looking at what's already in the game. I think the human mind craves structure, and 68A brings a bit of structure to an anything-goes, GM-fiat game.

 

[aramis]

I didn't change anything about Classic Trav. All I did was provide a more stuctured way of looking at what's already in the game. I think the human mind craves structure, and 68A brings a bit of structure to an anything-goes, GM-fiat game.

Adding that structure is a change. You've emphasized a narrow subset of the assorted resolution systems, and codified it into something almost at task system level of resolution.

 

[Supplement Four]

Adding that structure is a change. You've emphasized a narrow subset of the assorted resolution systems, and codified it into something almost at task system level of resolution.

No, not really. If you keep reading the OP, especially the "Anything Goes" section, you'll see that I changed nothing.

What I wrote is no different than MWM's section in the Traveller Adventure on how to come up with throws. What I wrote is different than what MWM wrote, but it's in the same vein.

 

[hdan]

No, not really. If you keep reading the OP, especially the "Anything Goes" section, you'll see that I changed nothing.

What I wrote is no different than MWM's section in the Traveller Adventure on how to come up with throws. What I wrote is different than what MWM wrote, but it's in the same vein.

When I ran my last campaign, I used CT and 68A, and it worked very nicely.

My current campaign is MgT, though instead of handing out DM's for difficulty, I internally adjust the target number to 68A.

 

[samuelvss]

Anytime a character takes [firearms]damage that does not reduce two stats to zero, then the damage is considered a minor wound.

We have to fill in the blanks and say what that minor wound is. Maybe it's a light bullet graze. Maybe its a bruise from armor taking the bullet impact. Maybe it's strained muscles. Maybe it's a scratch. Maybe it's "battle fatigue". Maybe it's light shock.

The wound is serious enough that it will take three days to heal naturally. Or, a medic can give you a shot (or some other type of medical care) and make you 100% healthy in about half an hour.

Well, when you consider where bullets go when they "miss," they tend to go high. Some will go low, however, especially with more experienced shooters. Those that go low tend to ricochet; rounds that ricochet tend to kick up stuff and break apart. Some rounds hit cover that is in the way, which tends to slow them down a great deal, even if they penetrate.

All of these things can wound or debilitate. Getting a splinter from vegetation or a bit of grit in the eye certainly counts. I would say some armor damage even counts (spider-webbing a viewport, knocking out ventilation, etc.).

When shot at, those trained to take cover hit the dirt...if there's dirt. Otherwise, they hit the rocks, pavement or jagged debris. [You already covered this IIRC]. These instinctive lunges can be quite damaging. I am with you with all of this.

I do not buy your shot/not shot distinction; I would put it as "taking the full impact of an undeflected round," if I had to name it. Leave it to the GM!

Good job on Rule 68A and this thread.

 

[Supplement Four]

I do not buy your shot/not shot distinction; I would put it as taking the full impact of an undeflected round.

Then answer me this:

An NPC fires at an unarmored Player Character. The attack is successful. Damage is 3D. PC's physicals are 777.

Roll damage, and it's 6, 5, 1. First blood rule is used, and the PC lucks out in that, randomly, none of his stats are reduced to zero. The 6 is applied to STR while the 5 and 1 are both applied to DEX. PC is at 117.

The fight is over.

The PC sees the ship's medic, another PC with Medical-1 skill and Medical kit.

30 minutes later--no dice rolls needed--the injured PC is as good as new, completely healed.



Now...what's your argument that the PC suffered from a gunshot wound?

Or, really, even a graze from a bullet. Even that's not going to heal 100% half an hour after the PC took the hit.

So, how can you justify that the NPC's successful attack actually represented a bullet wound hit on the target, given how fast it takes the injured character to completely heal?