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Rules Lawyers and how to deal with them.

Murph

SOC-14 1K
Everyone knows one, the consumate Rules Lawyer. We had it in Trillion Credit Squadron where all the ships were 1,999/19,999/74,999 tons and mounted the best weapon (Meson N/T) for the size to Min/Max the rules. And could they argue...Oy Vey! When you had identical fleets attacking it got boring.

I ended up adopting the "This is my game, and this is how its going to work in MY GAME" rule especially in C&S and Traveller to combat the rules lawyers. We also did local rules by consent to cover special situations.
 
Peer pressure takes care of a lot of that behavior in my experience. Also the referee's attitude is key. I was in a group once where the referee was really good a the snide reply that was taken by all (including the transgressor) humorously and the behaviors damped out. All in all the adoption of the attitude of "we are her to play a game tends to help a lot.

If all else failed the referee would have a meteor smash down on the legal beagle when he'd not cool it. Devine retribution is a B****. :)
 
Everyone knows one, the consumate Rules Lawyer.
[...]
I ended up adopting the "This is my game, and this is how its going to work in MY GAME" rule especially in C&S and Traveller to combat the rules lawyers. We also did local rules by consent to cover special situations.

That's really the only way to do it. Once someone gets into the 'but here on page xx it says ...' sort of schtick you can invite them to go and play D&D.

Make it clear that this sort of behaviour degrades the game for all the others concerned and you consider it to be inconsiderate and boorish. Boot repeat offenders, and you'll probably find it wasn't much of a loss anyway.
 
You either play by the rules as written as you don't.

If you don't like a rule, change it, but don't be surprised if it has unintended consequences further down the line.

Example - you don't like the 1999/19999/74999 breakpoints. So change the rule.

But you also have to change the rule about size mods to hit - or are you happy with those?

If you don't have the size mods then small ships are as easy to hit as big ships. If you do have the size mods then people can choose to build around them.

Then there are the batteries bearing rules - over the course of a 20 minute turn a ship could roll to bring every weapon to bear - so let's get rid of that rule too.

Turret weapons and bays can be swung to bear on any rapidly moving target, so maybe agility shouldn't be a defensive DM against them (note that in early editions of HG 2 agility wasn't the universal defensive DM it became).

That said I agree with your premise - your game, your rules.
If they don't like it they don't have to play
 
RPGs don't have rule lawyers, they have GMs and disaffected players.

Board games (TCS is a board game, essentially) have rules to be lawyered.

House rules fix rule lawyering.

Things like HG have "19,999 ton ships" because they have stark breakpoints affected by size.

a 1 pt DM, especially at different parts of the bell curve, more especially on 2D6, can have significant game affects, so it's worth min/maxing, and designed will reflect that.
 
Best solution: don't play with such people.

The problem with design rules, TCS or otherwise, is that the great unknowns about the effetiveness of systems in real lfe do not exist in games. There are a few small areas of doubt and uncertainty coupled with much greater areas of clear cause and effect and a few dice induced variables (but only post design). So people can min/max. And if they designed min rather than max, you would be equally baffled. :). As an aside, although you can sometimes design canon ships with design rules, they are often not the best ships for the purpose if the only design constraints were those imparted by the design rules.

Otherwise it's chess with dice and all that follows.


Perhaps seeing players do the best they can with ships some one else has designed is more interesting. Otherwise, again, don't let the players be in such a position or take away their toys, or send them to play DBM Ancients wargames competitions with symetrical terrain and no weather...:)

Good luck
 
We had it in Trillion Credit Squadron where all the ships were 1,999/19,999/74,999 tons and mounted the best weapon (Meson N/T) for the size to Min/Max the rules.

This is annoying, but did it make his fleets so overpowered compared to everyone else's that he wins every (or most) games?

If he does, that's not his problem.

It's that the game's rules are bad.

It's time to change the rules (or play a different system entirely). TCS in its various incarnations has been the source of flawed rules that have created the "Eurisko standard" and made TCS into something of a laughingstock among computer scientists of that era.

If he doesn't win every (or most) games, then let him have his little horn to toot. If the perceived advantage is too great and everyone else is doing the same, then your only choice is to change the rules. The thing with min/maxers in situations like these is that they can be loud and quick, but they're only finding the issues with the system that everyone else will eventually find, just it'll take everyone else longer but the problem isn't going away. That player just found it first.

It isn't an issue (imo) with the min/maxer - it's an issue with the rules. Sharp breakpoints are an issue. When you add a single ton of mass in a system that supposedly handles vessels of hundreds of thousands of tons of mass and suddenly your maneuver class drops a whole category (or something similar), that's not a problem with your players. It's a problem with the rules. Many games have issues with rules like this.

To use an RL example, if you look at warships during World War 2, they all kinda look the same. They have a similar layout guns in the centerline, carriers pretty much have a single deck, and so on. If you turn back the clock, by the end of WW1, these trends were firmly in place; naval architects had essentially min/maxed to find what works best for ships.

However, if you go back even further, say to about the time that steam power became practical in warships right up to about the beginning of WW1, things were wild and wooly. All kinds of loony (and visually interesting) designs. That period is what most players like in games like TCS - that loony period where nobody really knows exactly what works best you have aircraft carriers with three flight decks, battleships with huge tumblehomes and weird gun layouts, and so on with lots of experimentation and lots of "holy cow, that worked better than I thought!" or "ho ho I thought that'd be great, but man was that embarrassing."

If you play a game long enough, people who are playing the game as an exercise that winning is the point of a game and that the fun will happen along way as a result of the competition to win, they're going to optimize their strategy to winning. That "we're playing to have fun and he's not" excuse doesn't work (imo) because ... he's playing to have fun, too.

And could they argue...Oy Vey!

Arguing about the rules is a different beast. Tell them to go play Star Fleet Battles where finding obscure rules to win a combat appears to be part of the design of the game. In a RPG (or any situation where there's a referee), the best method I've found is for the referee to make a quick decision to keep play moving. If someone has an issue with a decision, they can discuss it after the game (or games) is over. In this way a body of house rules can be created for the future.

If you're playing a game that doesn't have a ref, the solutions are pretty standard:

1) Stop playing with the person.

2) Get a referee.

3) Tell the offending player that their constant arguing about the rules is really affecting your enjoyment of the game and to either tone it down or you'll simply stop playing with them.
 
Everyone knows one, the consumate Rules Lawyer. We had it in Trillion Credit Squadron where all the ships were 1,999/19,999/74,999 tons and mounted the best weapon (Meson N/T) for the size to Min/Max the rules. And could they argue...Oy Vey! When you had identical fleets attacking it got boring.

I ended up adopting the "This is my game, and this is how its going to work in MY GAME" rule especially in C&S and Traveller to combat the rules lawyers. We also did local rules by consent to cover special situations.

A player in one of my groups always looked up rules for his advantage when he was fired upon, but somehow forgot the same rule when the tables were reversed. He was, is (I should say), diagnosed as obsessive compulsive.

He wasn't actually doing it to be a stick in the mud (well, not intentionally at least), but rather that's who he is. Like the other guy said, regardless of who they are, your best friend or mother, if it's unpleasant to play with them, then don't. For s game of TCS that may be easier said than done, but ultimately it's your game and your rules.
 
We had one player who rules lawyered like no ones business, and if he could find a loophole, error, inconsistency, ambiguity, or just sloppy editing, he did. Most of the time we could ignore him, but in other games TCS, C&S, etc it was painful. Another player had an inclination to Rules Lawyer, but we could call him down most of the time. But if the two of them got into penis-measuring mode, it was horrid.
 
We had one player who rules lawyered like no ones business, and if he could find a loophole, error, inconsistency, ambiguity, or just sloppy editing, he did. Most of the time we could ignore him, but in other games TCS, C&S, etc it was painful. Another player had an inclination to Rules Lawyer, but we could call him down most of the time. But if the two of them got into penis-measuring mode, it was horrid.

Use these guys to the advantage of the community. Take notes and then submit them as errata :devil:
 
Use these guys to the advantage of the community. Take notes and then submit them as errata :devil:

Actually, tell the rules lawyer to do that and when they are approved, everyone will follow them. Until then he can STFU and listen to the referee's rulings on this, even where they deviate from written rules.
 
We had one player who rules lawyered like no ones business, and if he could find a loophole, error, inconsistency, ambiguity, or just sloppy editing, he did. Most of the time we could ignore him, but in other games TCS, C&S, etc it was painful. Another player had an inclination to Rules Lawyer, but we could call him down most of the time. But if the two of them got into penis-measuring mode, it was horrid.
This is a problem with all boardgames and war games - from chess to monopoly.
If you play maonoploy you will know that when a player first lands on a property but chooses not to buy it then the banker offers it for auction. When I was eight I must have missed reading that because we played the game for years without it. Then a rules lawyer played, pointed out the rule, changed the game for me and I haven't played it since.

Chess club in infant school - I knew the rules for en passant and castling, the teacher didn't, so I wasn't allowed to use them.

Many wargame sets have quirks in the rules, a referee can help sort it out but if you play at a different club a different referee may give a different interpretation - accept and play or leave.

Just stick to - my game, my rules - and tell them to shut up or leave. After the game then you can have rules discussions.
 
Actually, tell the rules lawyer to do that and when they are approved, everyone will follow them. Until then he can STFU and listen to the referee's rulings on this, even where they deviate from written rules.
Hear hear; well said.
 
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In a RPG (or any situation where there's a referee), the best method I've found is for the referee to make a quick decision to keep play moving. If someone has an issue with a decision, they can discuss it after the game (or games) is over. In this way a body of house rules can be created for the future.

This is the way I've always run my games. I'm not a dictator, I will allow someone to question a decision. Then I make a ruling and we move on. If the player isn't happy, they can talk to me after the gaming session. I even had a player convince me to retcon a decision once. Usually, the player drops the matter and we move on.

Cheers,

Baron Ovka
 
Don't mistake me, I'm not suggesting you put up with the nonsense. Besides being an attempt at humor in the situation, I was pointing out that having someone finding the weak points can have uses. It just needs to be channeled outside the game. During the game I go with what Lycanorukke said.
 
Don't mistake me, I'm not suggesting you put up with the nonsense. Besides being an attempt at humor in the situation, I was pointing out that having someone finding the weak points can have uses. It just needs to be channeled outside the game. During the game I go with what Lycanorukke said.

And I am not suggesting anything to the contrary. I apologize if it came off that way. The "I am not a dictator" statement is something that I tell my players to let them know that it is a shared experience designed for us all to have fun.

Cheers,

Baron Ovka
 
Also, being a dictator strains friendships, and soon you have no one to game with. I've cracked the whip many a time, and once in high school I even stormed out because no one was paying attention to the adventure I was running. It was all talk about football, girls, cars ... normal stuff, which I normally would have been part of, but at that time I felt like we were there to enjoy a gaming session. I was kind of a jerk at that moment, and next session we eventually came back to it (Double Adventure; Across the Bright Face).

During college/university, I was part of a D&D group in the early 90s, and someone from my martial arts program ran a campaign. And he had the very perfect mix of friendliness and disciplinarian. I was very impressed. He ran a very fun game. If you can do that, and be quick enough to point out that Rule-X wasn't being used until now, and then establish a ground rule about usage of Rule-X, then you'll keep your friends, game and fun factor for everyone.
 
Truth. Although Rules Lawyers can really be a PITA when you want everyone else to have fun. We played Dunn-Kempf (US Army miniatures) in College at the ROTC building, and we added lots of units. Well the Rules Lawyer/Opportunist got into it, and the Amazing Mi-24 Hind ubercopter reaped the units of M-1 Abrams (Remember this was 1979/1980) with "hand Off missiles".

Also, being a dictator strains friendships, and soon you have no one to game with. I've cracked the whip many a time, and once in high school I even stormed out because no one was paying attention to the adventure I was running. It was all talk about football, girls, cars ... normal stuff, which I normally would have been part of, but at that time I felt like we were there to enjoy a gaming session. I was kind of a jerk at that moment, and next session we eventually came back to it (Double Adventure; Across the Bright Face).

During college/university, I was part of a D&D group in the early 90s, and someone from my martial arts program ran a campaign. And he had the very perfect mix of friendliness and disciplinarian. I was very impressed. He ran a very fun game. If you can do that, and be quick enough to point out that Rule-X wasn't being used until now, and then establish a ground rule about usage of Rule-X, then you'll keep your friends, game and fun factor for everyone.
 
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