Sci-Fi hardness and sacred handwaves

[themink]

Originally posted by MichaelL65:
How about this one:

Fuel for starships is pure hydrogen. This could work in an atmosphere, but in the vacuum of space, what is it going to combine with to produce the chemical reaction? According to the definition of unrefined fuel, it has a better chance of burning than refined fuel.

No.

The "Fuel" used by JDrive is clearly not used in a chemical reaction. There have been a variety of theories that people have raised as to how it might be used:-

i) It is (after all) a fusion powerplant - fuse it to helium for the huge power drain - There are a couple of reasons why this is a bad idea, but initial reaction seems OK

ii) It is released into the "medium" of jump over the period of the jump to "grease" the passage through Jump space - this can result in a lot of fun descriptions

iii) It is released into space to form a dense cloud arround the ship - Jump drive effectively "lasers" this cloud ripping space open and throwing the ship into a distant location (call it a jump) Graeme Bartho described this and various reasons why it might be so in a lovely set of articles on the TML - a net search on his name would give you a solid backgrounding in various theories.

Needless to say, I am a fan of the last of these. One thing it does have is a flash of light as ships exit and enter jump space - which is very cinematic and it's not contradicted by canon so I like it.

Either way, hydrogen fuel is no stretch of the imagination if you are willing to accept backpack fusion generaters, Grav plates and jump drives.

 

[Simon Jester]

Another handwave I use, or, rather, don't use, is jump masking. This is where a gravity well's 100 diameter "shadow" placed in between a ship initiating a jump and it's intended destination can prevent that jump from occurring.

As far as MTU is concerned "No."

Jumpspace is an entirely different universe/reality, and nothing in this universe can affect anything in it, including the gravity wells/100 dia. shadows of stars and planets. Only a jumpdrive can affect jumpspace, and that only by creating an entrance into it for the ship using the jumpdrive.

I realize this flies in the face of many people's dearly held "canon," but I don't care; it's never made sense to me, therefor it doesn't exist IMTU.

Simon Jester

 

[PinkSplice]

GURPS is a (partial) bastard offspring of Traveller. The heavy-duty gearheads and rules lawyers of GURPS (and their cousins on the TML) have been trying to make a "harder" Traveller for 25 years.

Heavens to Elvis! It's a goddam *game*, people.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Wow... that's all very cool.

but you know about as fascinating to me as the need for leg traction in Femur fractures is to you.

Again I'm sure 'I bandage his wounds' is enough medical knowledge for most of your games. (or.. I roll my med skill)

I am perfectly happy using existing maps and "I made my astrogation roll... Great! activate jump drives cue heroic music... fade out Cut to next star system."

 

[Solo]

Heavens to Elvis! It's a goddam *game*, people.[/QB]

I concur. But.

If there was a "hand-wave" in Traveller that bothers me the most, it would be TIME.

It's 3000+ years into the future. Ballistic Weapons? Non-sentient machines? Limited genetic engineering? People being old at 80? Humans in their present form at all? Hmph.

Which is why I remember the quote above.



-S.

 

[DrSkull]

But Solo, you forget there was the Long Night in which technology and civilization actually regressed for 2000 of those 3000 years. THe amazing progress of our civilization in the last 500 years is the exception in human history, not the rule.

 

[kafka47]

Originally posted by DrSkull:
But Solo, you forget there was the Long Night in which technology and civilization actually regressed for 2000 of those 3000 years. THe amazing progress of our civilization in the last 500 years is the exception in human history, not the rule.

But, surely the Long Night allowed the powerful to keep their place through preserving knowledge. For unlike Fading Suns, the Long Night, was not complete collapse of the Interstellar order but fracturing of Humaniti's dominance into micro-empires or pocket empires, save around the frontier (which includes Sol).

Therefore, it was only a technological regression but still would have allowed the powerful to produce their fusion weapons. For of the case has has been made about the collapse of trade. But, truly autaric regimes (here I am thinking of Stalin's USSR & Hitler 3rd Reich) have produced truly terrible weapons in isolation. For the trade in arms does not produce innovation just opens markets to other goods.

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by kafka47:
But, surely the Long Night allowed the powerful to keep their place through preserving knowledge. For unlike Fading Suns, the Long Night, was not complete collapse of the Interstellar order but fracturing of Humaniti's dominance into micro-empires or pocket empires, save around the frontier (which includes Sol).

Therefore, it was only a technological regression but still would have allowed the powerful to produce their fusion weapons. For of the case has has been made about the collapse of trade. But, truly autaric regimes (here I am thinking of Stalin's USSR & Hitler 3rd Reich) have produced truly terrible weapons in isolation. For the trade in arms does not produce innovation just opens markets to other goods.

That's not the take I get from the Long Night. Very, very few multi-stellar organizations survived the entire period. Technology did regress thru out Charted space. There were virtually no trade or commerce. The manufacture of high tech goods (gravitics, starship, weapons, etc) stopped because they could not repair, maintain, and supply the factories, as they were dependent on imports. The local either had to adapt to lower tech to survive the local conditions or die out.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by DrSkull:
But Solo, you forget there was the Long Night in which technology and civilization actually regressed for 2000 of those 3000 years. THe amazing progress of our civilization in the last 500 years is the exception in human history, not the rule.

Actually, it's not. The rate of change in the last 500 years has been fairly high, but the development of technology has been pretty much one way for all of human history (and yes, this includes the so-called 'dark ages').

As far as it goes, canon around the Long Night suggests it was mostly the ZS which collapsed. The Solomani Rim had stable multi-world PEs for the entire duration of the Long Night.

 

[TheColonel]

I agree with Anthony. There has rarely (ever?) been a regression in technology, just the complex social structure that allows for it's growth and widespread use. With every documentry on the history Channel I see about technology, I see there was always development. Granted, it was easier for change and advancements to occour, but as a whole always a move forward.

 

[DrSkull]

The development of technology isn't as one way as you might think. Romans had mechanical calculators used in navigation whose existence was unsuspected for ages until one was found in shipwreck. There were also building and metalworking techiniques in the ancient world that were lost and which artists and artizans were unable to duplicate until the 20th century.

The appearence of irreversible technology advancement is sometimes a result of tautology. If you forget about a technilogical advancement then it doesn't count. So the fact that in the Dark Ages better horse collars, ploughs and windmills were invented seems to point to tech progress, but the Roman age things that were forgotten, were just that forgotten.

In any case, my original point was that what our civilizations current technological explosion is amazing for its rate and bredth, but there's no reason to believe that it will continue into the futute at the same rate. The Luddite impulse to protect jobs and ways of life is the normal human condition. It takes some guts to allow the chaos and disruption that tech progress brings.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

"90% of the scientists that have ever lived are alive today"

I don't know if that's true but... there IS a critical mass of population and education. Kill enough of the techies that make things run and a planet will lose it's tech.

Kill enough of the populace and you won't have anyone to do the scut work and things will collapse.

also I don't know about TECH but there was a DEFINITE regression in knowledge.

Who knows what information and knowledge was lost when the Christians burned the Library at Alexandria.

if you get a chance to examine documents from before and during the dark ages on say... natural history. you'll find the pre dark age ones resonably full of facts and observed data. while the others... um full of things such as linking the shape of a lion's paw to the death of christ literally stating that it has four toes becuase of four drops of blood or similar um... unsupported Religiocentric assertations that have no basis in observable fact.

For an idea of what the end of the Ramshackle Empire and what the long night looked like. I reccomend Two Piper Novels: Cosmic Computer (Junkyard Planet) and Space Viking.

But yeah... I can see the tech being not so advanced in the year 5k as some might insist it should be.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Also some planets may lack sufficient resources... fissionables. so atomic energy is impossible. Lanthanum so that Jump drives are.

And by lack I don't mean absent I mean unvaileble in practical ammounts with the tech available.

this is a problem earth may face if we ever lose ahold of our grip on the tiger tail of tech.

resources that may be needed to power and empower earlier 'seed' tech don't exist anymore in formats accessable by those techs.

Ores availble only through deep hard rock mining and/or caison techniques. Can't be dug if all you have is picks and mattocks.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

A couple novels on these themes.

Arslan: the villain's plan is to de-technologise earth.

40 000 in Gehenna, by CJ Cherryh: shows how an initial societal set up can break down and shift and grow into something else.

 

[dean]

Also on this theme, and by CJ Cherryh; "Angel With a Sword", about a population of humans abandoned inside an alien culture's sphere of influence. Many reasonable assumptions including lack of mineral resources, plus cultural changes which surpress the development of technologies that the inhabitants _know_ are possible.

This setting also spawned anthologies of stories by other authors; "Merovingen Nights", etc.

Happy Reading,

 

[themink]

Also on the same theme - "Mote in Gods eye" - What happens if you don;t have afrontier anymore. Welcome to Malthaus.

 

[manley_t]

Originally posted by thrash:

Originally posted by hunter:
[qb]http://jtas.sjgames.com/login/article.cgi?139

can you provide a link to this that doesnt' require a log-on?

I can suspend disbelief and still enjoy Traveller. I play for the escape of it; not the technical accuracy.

that said, I would love to see a 3d style map -- hell, I'd love to just see a subsector/sector map that semi-accurately reflects the starts around SOL.

As for lasers -- well, they just tested a laster shooting down an artillery shell and anti-ballistic missile chemical lasers are set to be deployed on modified 747's -- so we're gettin' there.

The reactionless thrust thing for me takes away from what could be much of the drama and sense of exploration in playing space games. I ran a game some time back that was heavily house-rules modified. It took place all in one system and life-support and fuel were important. My specific impluse rules mod was to have a G/Hour rating for fuel and thrust. I also used a quick'n dirty rotational rule for the planets. Players could travel regardless of where each planet was, but it took more fuel to get there. In fact, the farthest planet in the system the players didn't go to until late in the game because the trip would have taken so long.

All I can say is thank goodness for spreadsheets to handle all the math. Without that my players would have hated it.

I'm planning on creating my own set of houserules for D20 along the same lines -- no FTL and using 'future' rockets instead of the magic reactionless drive. But, I'm still reading the rules and want to run 'standard' traveller games for a bit before I start mucking with the rules system.

 

[BluWolf]

I'm assuming all this "reactionless drive" stuff is referring to a manuever drive system that doesn't turn its crew to tomato paste on the internal hull while accelerating???

Kind of like the mythical "inertial dampers"?

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

I'm fond of assuming that the drive is gravitic based and that Gravitics are also part of the internal lifesupport. beyond that I don't worry. Inertial dampers are cool.

Long live Honour.

 

[BluWolf]

Originally posted by Garf:
I'm fond of assuming that the drive is gravitic based and that Gravitics are also part of the internal lifesupport. beyond that I don't worry. Inertial dampers are cool.

Long live Honour.

Ok, then what is a reactionless drive??