Scout Ships (Type S) and Fuel Processing

[creativehum]

Book 2 states that civilian ships don't have fuel processors, but that military ships do. Fuel processors matter because using unrefined fuel can lead to drive failures and misjumsp.

Book 2 provides no rules or details about fuel processors. But the rules do make it clear that Scout ships do not suffer from using unrefined fuel.

Book 5 introduces fuel processors. They take up [EDIT: 15-50 tons depending on TL]. Clearly, a Type S ship does not carry a 50 ton fuel processor.

Keeping in mind that Book 2 and Book 5 are not built to be complimentary (they are two different ways of handling ships), I'm curious if any sort of rational for Type S ships not needing refined fuel was ever created.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

See the AK-47...

I figure it is extremely robust engineering. And maybe Scout only tech?

 

[Meeko100]

Maybe scout drives are built significantly more robust then common civilian drives.

In MgT main book, a fuel processor can be installed for 50,000 Cr, sizing one ton. Hell, a common free trader has them built in in the Gooseverse

 

[mike wightman]

Instead of producing a military ship building option to LBB2 the folks at GDW went down the totally different High Guard route.

It would have been nice to see a special supplement in a JTAS adding military grade stuff to LBB2.

 

[creativehum]

I understand GDW made fuel processing easier and easier over time, and even easier across the editions of the game. But in Classic Traveller Book 5 it goes like this:

FUEL PURIFICATION
TL..... Tons..... Cost
8........50........ 200,000
9........45.........190,000
10......40.........180,000
11......35..........170,000
12......30..........160,000
13......25..........150,000
14......20..........140,000
15......15..........150,000
-- cost per 1,000 tons of fuel

As for robust technology that doesn't require a fuel purifier... like, that changes *everything* in the setting.

I'm guessing that over time most people just came to think of issues of fuel as being not that big a deal. But in the rules as written in the Boxed LBBs, how fuel worked is a huge complication (in a good way, in my view!) for interstellar travel. If there's a tech that allows a smaller ship to just blow by it, that's a huge deal.

 

[creativehum]

Instead of producing a military ship building option to LBB2 the folks at GDW went down the totally different High Guard route.

It would have been nice to see a special supplement in a JTAS adding military grade stuff to LBB2.

Mike, thanks.

I'm going to assume that this path really wasn't addressed. Which is awesome, because I get to address it myself.

Since my concern is creating a PC-focused setting, all I need is to hand wave, "Really big military ships have fuel purifiers" and leave it at that. But I want the technology to be EXPENSIVE. The ability to buy refined fuel is, after all, one of the key components that makes an A or B-class starport unique and valuable.

 

[Patron Zero]

I would tend to believe that all tech available to Scouts and in particular such installed in Scout Couriers would be well above 'robust' as to endurance and ruggedness-reliability.

 

[creativehum]

I would tend to believe that all tech available to Scouts and in particular such installed in Scout Couriers would be well above 'robust' as to endurance and ruggedness-reliability.

I'm more than willing to go along with this (as others have suggested).

For my own sensibilities I'd assume there would be some massive upfront cost for the technology or some massive wear and tear (and cost) associated with this. My point being, if there is no downside to the tech, then *every* small ship would have it.

I'm not arguing against the notion of Type S ships having upgraded tech. I'm looking to bake in the rules for military purifiers that keep such tech exceptional.

 

[McPerth]

Book 2 states that civilian ships don't have fuel processors, but that military ships do. Fuel processors matter because using unrefined fuel can lead to drive failures and misjumsp.

Book 2 provides no rules or details about fuel processors. But the rules do make it clear that Scout ships do not suffer from using unrefined fuel.

Book 5 introduces fuel processors. They take up [EDIT: 15-50 tons depending on TL]. Clearly, a Type S ship does not carry a 50 ton fuel processor.

Keeping in mind that Book 2 and Book 5 are not built to be complimentary (they are two different ways of handling ships), I'm curious if any sort of rational for Type S ships not needing refined fuel was ever created.

Read page 27:

The fuel purification plant costs is based in 1000 tons of fuel. A large ship with a large fuel tank capacity requires several plants. A small fuel tank capacity requires a fraction of the fuel purification shown. In no case may a fuel purification plant be procurred with less tan one-fifth the tonnage and cost shown

And as a scout in Book2 , having PPn 2, needs 20 dtons of fuel for the PP (regardless ship size, as it is 10*Pn), while in Book 5, being a 100 dton ship, a Pn 2 needs only 2 dtons of fuel, so saving 18 dtons, more than enough for a purifier plant, being it only one-fifth the numbers you give us (as total fuel capacity is under 200 dtons).

So, in Book 2 a scout needs 40 dtons fuel (jump and PP), while in Book 5 it needs 22 (20 jump, 2 PP, assuming Pn2) and 3-10 dtons (depending on TL) for purification plant, with a net saving of 8-15 dtons (again, depending on TL) in what fuel is concerned...

 

[creativehum]

Read page 27:

And as a scout in Book2 , having PPn 2, needs 20 dtons of fuel for the PP (regardless ship size, as it is 10*Pn), while in Book 5, being a 100 dton ship, a Pn 2 needs only 2 dtons of fuel, so saving 18 dtons, more than enough for a purifier plant, being it only one-fifth the numbers you give us (as total fuel capacity is under 200 dtons).

So, in Book 2 a scout needs 40 dtons fuel (jump and PP), while in Book 5 it needs 22 (20 jump, 2 PP, assuming Pn2) and 3-10 dtons (depending on TL) for purification plant, with a net saving of 8-15 dtons (again, depending on TL) in what fuel is concerned...

Thank you for all that. I had forgotten that the fuel costs are computed differently between Books 2 and 5.

On the other hand, also on p. 27, is this:
"Drives obtained from Book 2 require use of the fuel formulas from Book 2."

So, I toss up my hands and move along.

The key point for me is this:

Using the rules presented in Book 5, as you have laid it out, there is no reason for any ship not to have a fuel purifier. This means that:

a) concerns about refined or unrefined fuel no longer matter.
b) refined fuel availability being limited to A and B class starports is now moot

I'm not fond of either of these points. And so, as Mike suggests, I'll be coming up with my own notions of why military vessels don't need refined fuel. (My own guess is that they basically make them as robust as possible, wear them out, and then use tax base spending to refit them as needed.)

 

[rancke]

I would tend to believe that all tech available to Scouts and in particular such installed in Scout Couriers would be well above 'robust' as to endurance and ruggedness-reliability.

That doesn't explain anything. IIRC correctly, navy ships also have 'hardened' jump drives. If I'm wrong about that, how come they don't? This technology would be something the Navy would want to have for their own ships, and all it would have to do is ask the Emperor to make the Scouts share their technology.

The fact that hardened jump drives appear to have no extra cost in either price or volume is also highly implausible.

Bottom line is that Book 2 made a mistake and HG failed to correct it. Whatever might be the case in the Third Imperium, rules for hardened drives ought to be included in ship design for the benefit of referees who want to use them in their own TUs.


Hans

 

[creativehum]

That doesn't explain anything. IIRC correctly, navy ships also have 'hardened' jump drives.

You are correct.

The fact that hardened jump drives appear to have no extra cost in either price or volume is also highly implausible.

I concur.

Bottom line is that Book 2 made a mistake and HG failed to correct it. Whatever might be the case in the Third Imperium, rules for hardened drives ought to be included in ship design for the benefit of referees who want to use them in their own TUs.

The first three LBBs were Player Character focused, so in a way I would almost let Miller off the hook. I'm not expecting those first three books to tell me everything about how an interstellar empire might work. And since the PCs probably won't be tooling around in a military vessel, I can see punting on the details for reasons of word count, if nothing else...

But, as you point out, there is a mistake. By handing the PCs the possibility of a Type S scout courier, the game slipped up and put the hardened drives (or whatever) into play. It only involves that one ship... but it's enough. And it's why this thread got started.

On the other hand, I think upping the maintenance costs -- maybe a multiplier based on the number of non-refined fuel jumps between repairs. Might be enough to handle the matter. Another option: a fixed number of non-refined fuel jumps (based on TL of drives) before the drives need to be replaced.

 

[mike wightman]

I'd be tempted to steal an idea from MgT HG - the idea of high TL enhancements.

Basically is you build something above its TL you can pick one enhancement per TL above introduction up to a maximum of three enhancements (some enhancements are so good they cost 2 enhancements if that makes sense).
eg
cost reduction
rugged construction (unrefined fuel)
size reduction
easily maintained
that sort of thing

 

[aramis]

That doesn't explain anything. IIRC correctly, navy ships also have 'hardened' jump drives. If I'm wrong about that, how come they don't?

Bk 2 drives using Bk2 combat are actually tougher for anything drive G or over than Bk5 drives under Bk5 combat... as they can be hit more than 6 times before being killed.

There is no mechanic in CT, MT, TNE, T4, nor T20 for "hardening" the drives in any way. The closest thing to that is that Bk2 assumes military drives incorporate fuel purification (but provides no rules for installing same).

 

[creativehum]

Bk 2 drives using Bk2 combat are actually tougher for anything drive G or over than Bk5 drives under Bk5 combat... as they can be hit more than 6 times before being killed.

There is no mechanic in CT, MT, TNE, T4, nor T20 for "hardening" the drives in any way. The closest thing to that is that Bk2 assumes military drives incorporate fuel purification (but provides no rules for installing same).

In the context of this thread, I believe Hans used the word "hardening" (in quotes) to refer explicitly to what you are referring to: The ability of military drives to use unrefined fuel. He isn't referring to "armored" or hardened for combat in any way.

On a side note, I just looked up the text about military vessels in Book 2, and found this:

"Military and quasi-military starships often use unrefined fuel because it is more available, and because their drives are specially built to use it."

So, the notion of "purifying" fuel is introduced in Book 5. But in Book 2 the rules are not specific that the ships "purify" the fuel, but that they can handle the unrefined fuel in some way. The text seems to suggest that the drives themselves can handle the fuel without purification. Which is why Hans (and myself) assume military drives are "hardened" in for the purposes of unrefined fuel use.

 

[Matt123]

Military and quasi-military starships often use unrefined fuel because it is more available, and because their drives are specially built to use it. Commercial ships sometimes use unrefined fuel because it is cheaper. - bk2 p5

A bk5 purification plant at the Scout ship scale is subject to minimum sizes (TCS p15). For fun and because I have a new toy, here is a Scout variant built using Bk5 and including a fuel purifier. I'm picking it might have to have the purifier to bring it up to Bk2 reliability standards? I note the overall cost though is ~160% of the bk2 design.


Scout/Courier (type S)
100 ton, TL 11 Civilian Design, 52.23 MCr
1 crew (Command: 1+0)
3 High/Mid passengers, 3 tons cargo
Agility 1, Emergency Agility 2
_Ton.____MCr.____EP.____
| __.__ | 11.00 | _.__ | Cone, streamlined
| __.__ | _0.10 | _.__ | fuel scoops
| _7.00 | _0.03 | _.__ | purification plant
| 20.00 | _0.50 | _.__ | bridge
| _1.00 | _4.00 | _.__ | computer model 1-bis (allows jump 2)
| _3.00 | 12.00 | _.__ | drive jump #2
| _5.00 | _3.50 | _.__ | drive maneouver #2
| _6.00 | 18.00 | _.__ | power plant #2
| __.__ | __.__ | 1.00 | agility #1
| _2.00 | __.__ | _.__ | fuel, PP endurance 4 weeks (8 weeks powered down)
| 20.00 | __.__ | _.__ | fuel, jump range 2 parsecs
| _1.00 | _0.50 | 1.00 | 1 x pulse laser turret #1
| 16.00 | _2.00 | _.__ | 4 x staterooms
| _3.00 | __.__ | _.__ | 3 tons cargo capacity
| _4.00 | _0.60 | _.__ | 1 x 4 ton Air/raft
------------------------
| 88.00 | 52.23 | 2.00 EP used, PP generates 2.0 EPs

52.76 MCr for first ship in class, built in 40 weeks
41.79 MCr when built in volume, built in 32 weeks
CT Ship Designer by Matt. Visit https://tca-2014-12.herokuapp.com

 

[Selandia]

...
"Military and quasi-military starships often use unrefined fuel because it is more available, and because their drives are specially built to use it."

So, the notion of "purifying" fuel is introduced in Book 5. But in Book 2 the rules are not specific that the ships "purify" the fuel, but that they can handle the unrefined fuel in some way. The text seems to suggest that the drives themselves can handle the fuel without purification. Which is why Hans (and myself) assume military drives are "hardened" in for the purposes of unrefined fuel use.

Since the drives are show as "standard", I always considered that some ancillary device was involved and that "drives" to mean the sum of drives and auxilliary machinery. An A drive in a scout is an A drive in a free trader Somehow, the engine room of the trader does not have the unrefined fuel "pre-processor" (or whatever..).

After all, the use of standard drive would be the answer to a) the training issue and b) the spare parts issue. How could I dare moves 100 parsec away from my building yard if I use a impossible to reproduce gizmo on the ground that it allows for size efficient custom drives?

have fun

Selandia

 

[rancke]

I'm convinced that the original reference to military and quasi-military ships having drives that were built to handle unrefined fuel didn't refer to any built-in fuel purifier plant. I can't prove that, but that's my belief. But be that as it may, that's a pretty decent handwave. It does require a bit more tonnage than the jump drive alone to make room for the purifier, so it isn't a perfect explanation, but it's a pretty good one.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

I'm convinced that the original reference to military and quasi-military ships having drives that were built to handle unrefined fuel didn't refer to any built-in fuel purifier plant. I can't prove that, but that's my belief.


Hans

I agree with you completely.

Note that HG1 introduced two (three) military options not at the time available to civilian (LBB2) designed ships:
fuel purification plants
jump governors
(drop tanks)

By the time of the 81 revision of LBB2 the jump governor is no longer needed as the jump drive now does this automatically.

 

[McPerth]

A bk5 purification plant at the Scout ship scale is subject to minimum sizes (TCS p15). For fun and because I have a new toy, here is a Scout variant built using Bk5 and including a fuel purifier. I'm picking it might have to have the purifier to bring it up to Bk2 reliability standards? I note the overall cost though is ~160% of the bk2 design.


Scout/Courier (type S)
100 ton, TL 11 Civilian Design, 52.23 MCr
1 crew (Command: 1+0)
3 High/Mid passengers, 3 tons cargo
Agility 1, Emergency Agility 2
_Ton.____MCr.____EP.____
| __.__ | 11.00 | _.__ | Cone, streamlined
| __.__ | _0.10 | _.__ | fuel scoops
| _7.00 | _0.03 | _.__ | purification plant
| 20.00 | _0.50 | _.__ | bridge
| _1.00 | _4.00 | _.__ | computer model 1-bis (allows jump 2)
| _3.00 | 12.00 | _.__ | drive jump #2
| _5.00 | _3.50 | _.__ | drive maneouver #2
| _6.00 | 18.00 | _.__ | power plant #2
| __.__ | __.__ | 1.00 | agility #1
| _2.00 | __.__ | _.__ | fuel, PP endurance 4 weeks (8 weeks powered down)
| 20.00 | __.__ | _.__ | fuel, jump range 2 parsecs
| _1.00 | _0.50 | 1.00 | 1 x pulse laser turret #1
| 16.00 | _2.00 | _.__ | 4 x staterooms
| _3.00 | __.__ | _.__ | 3 tons cargo capacity
| _4.00 | _0.60 | _.__ | 1 x 4 ton Air/raft
------------------------
| 88.00 | 52.23 | 2.00 EP used, PP generates 2.0 EPs

52.76 MCr for first ship in class, built in 40 weeks
41.79 MCr when built in volume, built in 32 weeks
CT Ship Designer by Matt. Visit https://tca-2014-12.herokuapp.com

Yes, it's more expensive, but leves you 12 tons unused, so giving you more flexibility (you can enlarge the cargo hold to 15 tons, add 3 staterooms, albeit at increased cost, etc...). Fact is that if you design it with LBB5 rules it becomes a brand new design, as too many tonnage needs vary (drives, fuel...).

BTW, two comments:

I've always assumed the scout to be needle/wedge congifuration, not cone...

I guess the cost given for the first ship (MCr 52.76, instead the MCr 52.23 given in the table) is once architect fees are added. Am I right?