Yep, you are of course right. My mistake.
Yes, in an effort to get key information into as few lines as possible. My pick is that most PC ships would not pay this as the designs are well established.
Scout Ships (Type S) and Fuel Processing
- Thread starter creativehum
- Start date
Yep, you are of course right. My mistake.
Yes, in an effort to get key information into as few lines as possible. My pick is that most PC ships would not pay this as the designs are well established.
salochin999
SOC-13
ditto
I think this is one of things that can create interesting scenery so I actually do the opposite of most people and try and crank it right up.
My solution addresses a bunch of different things I want rather than just this but the gist is:
navigation calcs include the size of ship and the ease of solving the navigation calcs is heavily influenced by the size of ship and a 100 dton ship basically gets a DM-1 to the nav calcs (misjump roll) which cancels out the DM+1 for using unrefined fuel.
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the longer version is tl;dr but if interested
the nav calcs revolve around mass and gravity so
1) systems have three zones, inner, central and outer and the safest jumps are from one system's outer zone to the destination's outer zone, the most dangerous are inner zone to inner zone
2) ship size is a major part of the calc with the solutions becoming increasingly difficult with size e.g.
100 dton DM-1 (nb negative is a bonus in the context of misjump)
200 dton DM+0
400 dton DM+1 (same as using unrefined fuel)
800 dton DM+2
etc
going up in powers of two to tie in with the math idea
3) combined nav skill, computer + navigator as a bonus also
the original purpose was to create a system where a Han Solo type character could manage jumps that other ships couldn't e.g. closer to a planet than standard blockade distance
one of the main consequences is big naval ships have to jump outer zone to outer zone - making outer zone gas giants key strategic targets
another is it makes scouts necessary for "edge of safety" situations i.e. their DM-1 for size makes it possible for them to make safe jumps that are impossible for larger ships at the current TL
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refining fuel
part of the scenery goes away if it's easy and cheap for ships to refine fuel themselves so i like to crank it up instead:
fuel refining = a refining plant of x tons can refine x tons of fuel per (time period) (variable to get effect wanted)
so if a jump-1 costs 10% of ship tonnage then you'd need a refining plant of 10% ship tonnage to refine enough fuel in (time period) and a refining plant that was 1% ship tonnage would refine enough fuel for a J1 in 10 x (time period)
(you could make time period an hour if you wanted. i make it = 24 hours as i want it extreme)
making it extreme like that means
1) commercial ships might have a 1% refining plant for emergencies but otherwise will stick to refined fuel as they can't spare the cargo space
1b) using the full system mentioned above a commercial ship that could make a central zone to central zone jump might do a safer central zone to outer zone jump instead so the DM+1 for unrefined fuel wouldn't matter (this creates an opportunity for pirates)
2) line warships wouldn't want to allocate lots of space to refining as they need the space for weapons and armor so battle fleets would have refining tankers with them instead. I want fleet refuelling operations to be a massive headache so refueling operations become a major part of the whole naval thing, limiting them a bit and making it easier to create frontier space away from the main drag (at least during peacetime)
3) patrol cruisers and large explorer ships might allocate the 10% (of ship size) refining plants as they would be more likely to operate alone without a dedicated fuel ship.
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edit: although now i read the misjump rules again i see it says both naval and scout ships get a bonus which does imply some kind of built in fail-safe system. These changes will have to be another imtu thing it seems.
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I once calculated that if a fuel refinery paid Cr100 per dT for unrefined fuel, it could make a profit selling refined fuel at Cr105 (I think it was) per dT. Maybe it was a bit more, but something ridiculously low, anyway.
I also calculated that the refined fuel price at which it became cheaper (in lost earnings) for a ship to carry its own fuel purifier and buy unrefined fuel at Cr100 was around Cr350.
Hans
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
Well, there's no should about any of this, right? There is only what people want -- since there is no Jump Drive technology, and even the attempts at making it seem real are handwaves. Because, again, it doesn't exist.
Let me be clear before I go on:
I want people to play exactly how they want to play. I want people to have fun creating what they want to create. And assume people will make the settings they want to play in.
What I'm about to type below is what I want. It may not be what you want. (In fact, I can guarantee that it won't be what some of you want.) But I honestly can't be bothered to much by that... since, again, we're dealing with building a fictional environment that has at its base a non-existant technology that is handwaved at best. Which is not a problem, by the way. At least for me. By leaving a lot of the technology unexplained, the Referee gets to fill in the gaps to create the kind of setting he wants.
salochin999 used the term "scenery" above, and I think that's brilliant. Since none of this is real -- in fact, improbable to impossible, the chase for reality is doomed to failure. What we are left with are the choices we make for the kind of scenery and texture and imaginative environment we want to play. That's all that can ever happen in this situation.
I need to make one more thing clear before I go on:
I am not talking about the Third Imperium as a setting, nor am I using Book 5 High Guard as part of the "reality" of play. (Please remember that Book 5 is not an expansion of Book 2. It is a replacement of it. And I choose not to replace it.)
The above paragraph is very important for the following reason: If the Third Imperium exists, certain assumptions follow. And given these assumptions there is no reason for fuel processing to be expensive and there is no reason for Class C starports not to have refined fuel. Given Book 5 and the Third Imperium, fuel is cheap and easy... and, well, that's that.
But I'm not interested in the Third Imperium, so I'll answer as I would answer. Please see the sig below. The answer I'm about to give is based of the text found in Books 1-3 and nothing else. As I've noted, in Books 1-3 there is no reference to the Imperium or any of the OTU that has come to define the game in later years.
Given that I'm not interested in the Third Imperium, it may be no one cares about my answer. But the question was asked. So I'll answer.
Here are the two main reason why I would want fuel processing to be expensive and refined fuel to be limited to A and B-class starports:
1) Because the rules of Book 1-3 say fuel processing is expensive and refined fuel to be limited to A and B-class starports. And I want to play with Books 1-3.
2) Because I want space travel to feel as bold, unique, and risky as implied and stated in Book 2 -- and removing concerns about fuel removes a lot of those qualities from space travel. Please note that the first thing Marc Miller does in Book 2 Starshps is tell you all the things that can go wrong while traveling in space. The Age of Sails analogy is more than just about communication... it is about the act of travel itself.
So, in answer to the questions "Why should fuel processing be expensive? And why should Class C Starports not have refined fuel?" those are my answers.
Which might annoy or frustrate some reading this. But the fact is, when dealing with a setting based on technology that simply is a handwave and interstellar civilization of the sort that will probably never exist because logically it makes little sense on its face, the first concern is not making pretend there is a real way all this would work. The real thing to do, the only thing to do, is to really respect the kind of setting you want and justify as one wishes.
Notice that what is missing is the justifications. (And those are coming.) But the answers to those questions, for me, are because "The rules say so," and "I want it that way." And those two answers are good enough for me.
As for the justifications:
When I read the rules years ago I assumed that Jump Drive technology was quite twitchy and the the refinement of the hydrogen depended on a purity of refinement that we would think impossible today.
That's it.
That answer will not please some (or many) people. But there it is, at its barest bones.
Now, again, this doesn't make sense in the setting of the Third Imperium, where travel between the stars is as easy as international commercial flights. Nor does it work well with the technology laid out in Book 5, where apparently everyone can set up a purifier in a spare stateroom.
But in Book 1-3, by definition, we know that getting refined fuel is a big deal. It is defined as such. So, the question becomes why.
And my answer is that Jump Drive technology can easily get screwed up by the slightest of impurities.
Note that in Books 1-3 any ship can use unrefined fuel. There is simply a risk for using it.
So, it my assumption that every ship already has a purifier on board of some kind already. This is how any ship can use unrefined fuel. But these basic purifiers will never remove all the impurities that can cause misjumps and drive failures. That purification requires very, very expensive equipment, with a dedicated staff and maintenance. It also requires lots and lots of unrefined fuel to pass through the refinery, since a great deal of the unrefined fuel is lost as the impurities are stripped out of the material in dozens of passes.
It is also my assumption that military and quasi-military vessels do not have better purifiers on board that are equivalent to the refineries at A and B-class starports. As the text in Book 2 says, "Military and quasi-military starships often use unrefined fuel because it is more available, and because their drives are specially built to use it." The text doesn't say it the ship cleans up the fuel before use. It says the ships can use it. It is my assumption that the strain on the drives takes its toll over time. But for a while the risks of drives and misjumps are mitigated.
So, that's it. First for the "why should...?" Because I want it.
And then the rational... Because Jump Drives require pure liquid hydrogen which is difficult to make, needs to be tested, and the run again, which causes lots of run lost material.
Out of curiosity, after typing the above, I decided to crack open the Starship Operator's Manual. I haven't looked at in years. In it, I found this:
Note that apart from the specific color details of the technobabble, what is written there is pretty much what I assumed to be the case back when I first read the LBBs when Traveller was first published. And it's identical to what I wrote above (again, without the specifics of the technobabble.) So, whether my explanation works for other, I feel comfortable with it for now.
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Except that it says to use Bk2 for the bits not covered, and that you can still use Bk2 drives in HG.
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
Let me clarify:
Having gone over both Book 2 and Book 5, I believe they are far less compatible than the authors thought. So, yes, the books say they are compatible. I'm less than convinced on the matter.
Either way, the concern about this matter is beside the point. I'm content with the material in Book 2 and have no need for Book 5. And with that said, for my Traveller play, the handy-dandy fuel purifiers introduced in Book 5 blink out of existence.
Which is all part and parcel of keeping refined fuel expensive and refineries at the rarer A and B-class starports.
I have tended to take the perspective that since there is no cost differential in the B2 design process, but an operational impact, the refined/unrefined option is a design choice driven by external factors.
IMTU anything built with a government subsidy will by default require "refined" fuel. As such vessels tend to ply regular, planned routes, it is a simple matter for the subsidizing government to make refined fuel available for purchase at both ends of the route, for the purpose of supporting the milk run. This has the added effect of reducing skipping and hijacking incidents, as such ships can quickly become unreliable out in the wilderness away from their regular routes (the Solomani Rim notwithstanding, I guess).
A similar rationale holds for large corporate fleets: specialized fuel requirements discourage repurposing the vessels.
Conversely, ships that will operate in underserved areas will tend toward being designed to run on the unrefined fuel that will be the only option at the typical C or worse starports such ships will frequent.
In addition, ships which are intended to primarily refuel at B or A starports will typically be unstreamlined (no skimming or dipping, under normal circumstances) and carry commercial-grade sensors, again to make them less-useful as corsairs.
Again conversely, small-to-medium traders will need all the help they can get, and so are nearly always streamlined and carrying military-grade sensors, to keep their options open and not handicap them.
As a handwave, given that small craft can burn fuel they themselves skim, I assign the purification function to the intake scoops and turbines that are part of the cost of B2 streamlining. Thus, all vessels technically require refined fuel, but the streamlined ones can spin and filter it clean themselves as fast as it can be pumped onboard. Likewise, any fuel a mothership receives from a fuel shuttle can easily have already been processed as a part of the harvesting or loading onto the shuttle, which is how corporate fleets provide refined fuel to their bulk carriers at C- starports.
Finally, IISS vessels, exploratory starships, seekers, and so on are, as a matter of common practice, built to lower-performance, higher-reliability standards, which is why they get the extra +1 to avoid Misjump. They still ought to be using refined fuel all the time, though, as there is no excuse not to be, as I have set things up.
It is only really and truly "unrefined" fuel if an unstreamlined starship harvests it itself directly from an iceball somewhere; otherwise fuel can be trivially refined as a matter of routine handling, and B+ starports only ever sell pre-refined fuel to risk-averse owners with already-high insurance premiums... such as government-subsidy holders and corporate fleet operators. And the occasional fussy Noble who wants only the very best for their beloved Yacht.
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
Hi Boomslang,
I thought your post was awesome.
I had one question. You wrote: "Finally, IISS vessels, exploratory starships, seekers, and so on are, as a matter of common practice, built to lower-performance, higher-reliability standards..."
i was wondering what those lower-performance details might be? Is this idea simply "color" in your setting? Or are there actual rules/mechanics involved in how the ships work in play?
I thought your post was awesome.
I had one question. You wrote: "Finally, IISS vessels, exploratory starships, seekers, and so on are, as a matter of common practice, built to lower-performance, higher-reliability standards..."
i was wondering what those lower-performance details might be? Is this idea simply "color" in your setting? Or are there actual rules/mechanics involved in how the ships work in play?
It is simply an additional handwave to explain away why "Scout" vessels (whatever that may encompass, but note that Scout Bases tend to be at C- starports, which implies a lot of the routine tuning and maintenance of "Scout" vessels can be performed in the field, away from B+ starports) are slightly less likely to Misjump, as per the -2 DM on the table. Note that the -1 DM for "Naval" vessels applies to everything else by default. This makes Misjump (as well as the "destroyed" result) slightly less likely overall, and I lose no sleep over that, as there is still plenty of room for catastrophe.
IMTU, the IN always specs equipment out at the highest available TL, while the IISS always specs equipment at the lowest possible TL. This is because the navy wants to maximize force and performance capabilities, whereas the scouts want to maximize serviceability and reliability.
Then those factors would logically be so easy to apply that all ships would be able to get the +1 to unrefined fuel use. After all, they apply to Scout/Couriers operated by a single PC. And not only that, the work involved in applying them is small enough that it's below the threshhold of the rules for operating ships.
Hans
IMTU, I justify it this way. (Also, I treat BkII and BkV designs as compatible, with two different space combat minigames.
Here's how.
BkII designs are using off the shelf hardware (with on exception). Some of these designs are thousands of years old. They are what they are because of (admittedly hand-waved) cultural and economic concerns. Cheap, heavy, predictable. Easy to maintain and repair.
BkV is for custom ships. Big ships and small ships. They're smaller, more efficient, more expensive. They're harder to work on, they're not generally mass produced. Given several hundred years, they'll start to look like the BkII designs in cost and volume (and fuel consumption)
The Scout (and the X-Boat for that matter) are the exceptions. They're both old designs, with customizations (which get absorbed by the price/volume changes between a BkII and BkV engine.
So the scout has an integral fuel purifier ('hardening' an engine is integrating the purifier into the engine), the XBoat's jump drive has an integral power plant. It's the immense investment in the construction of these ships that makes them cost and volume equivalent to a general drive.
Yes, you could rip a jump drive from a Type S and never worry about refined fuel again, but you can't order the drive. Or you bite the bullet, and commision a custom engine and enjoy your hot-rodded scout engine.
The reason every civillian ship doesn't have one, is that nobody's taken the time to make it cost effective to do it.
Here's how.
BkII designs are using off the shelf hardware (with on exception). Some of these designs are thousands of years old. They are what they are because of (admittedly hand-waved) cultural and economic concerns. Cheap, heavy, predictable. Easy to maintain and repair.
BkV is for custom ships. Big ships and small ships. They're smaller, more efficient, more expensive. They're harder to work on, they're not generally mass produced. Given several hundred years, they'll start to look like the BkII designs in cost and volume (and fuel consumption)
The Scout (and the X-Boat for that matter) are the exceptions. They're both old designs, with customizations (which get absorbed by the price/volume changes between a BkII and BkV engine.
So the scout has an integral fuel purifier ('hardening' an engine is integrating the purifier into the engine), the XBoat's jump drive has an integral power plant. It's the immense investment in the construction of these ships that makes them cost and volume equivalent to a general drive.
Yes, you could rip a jump drive from a Type S and never worry about refined fuel again, but you can't order the drive. Or you bite the bullet, and commision a custom engine and enjoy your hot-rodded scout engine.
The reason every civillian ship doesn't have one, is that nobody's taken the time to make it cost effective to do it.
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
Cool. Thanks!
Except for ships specifically built and designated "refined fuel ONLY" and then unequipped (no streamlining nor fuel shuttle, as it were) to refine their own fuel as a skipping/hijacking deterrent.
Your average Subsidized Liner, for example. Which is likely to be contactually obligated to use only pre-refined fuel purchased from authorized retail sources.
Otherwise, every hard-working Free Trader out there will eventually Misjump if it simply visits enough C- starports and of necessity routinely runs on the unrefined fuel that is the only option at such ports-of-call.
13+ with a +1 DM for unrefined fuel and not being rated for it ("Naval") happens statistically every 18 months or so. There would be thousands upon thousands of derelict Type As littering interstellar space within 36 parsecs of the Spinward Main as a result, for starters.
IMTU, no bank would *ever* underwrite an industry with losses like that...
There is an easy compromise: say civilian ships do not get the Naval DM but can refine their own fuel with their (or somebody's) skimmers as necessary, Naval ships get the Misjump DM because of the more-rigorous maintenance they are subject to (every drive monkey is a minimum Engineering-2, High Guard implies at one point), and Scout vessels are simply built to take more abuse than vessels that frequent B+ starports and Naval Bases (which is why Corsairs love Scout vessels so very, very, very much).
salochin999
SOC-13
They don't have to.
Personally I want to have a big ship universe and a small ship universe running side by side and so making fuel a problem and making the problem proportional to the size of ship is a hand wave that leads to interesting scenery.
Class D and C starport could obtain the classification without providing refined fuel to any and every ship that comes through.
However, that classification does not prevent them from selling refined fuel,
Offer side: huge profits would be made by selling it (see Hans)
Demand side: huge risk not using it (see boomslang)
Result: Every C and nearly every D have refined fuel IMTU, because, sometime, things have to make sense. It is also the money printing machine of Starport authorities (that have a Monopoly on the supply:devil
.
IMHO, book two is not a rendition of the real econimic of shipping (inasmuch as current shipping practice relate to Sci-Fi), it is a adventure gaming (make the players sweat) rendition.
have fun
Selandia
However, that classification does not prevent them from selling refined fuel,
Offer side: huge profits would be made by selling it (see Hans)
Demand side: huge risk not using it (see boomslang)
Result: Every C and nearly every D have refined fuel IMTU, because, sometime, things have to make sense. It is also the money printing machine of Starport authorities (that have a Monopoly on the supply:devil
.IMHO, book two is not a rendition of the real econimic of shipping (inasmuch as current shipping practice relate to Sci-Fi), it is a adventure gaming (make the players sweat) rendition.
have fun
Selandia
Otherwise, every hard-working Free Trader out there will eventually Misjump if it simply visits enough C- starports and of necessity routinely runs on the unrefined fuel that is the only option at such ports-of-call.
...
IMTU, no bank would *ever* underwrite an industry with losses like that...
There is an easy compromise: say civilian ships do not get the Naval DM but can refine their own fuel with their (or somebody's) skimmers as necessary, Naval ships get the Misjump DM because of the more-rigorous maintenance they are subject to (every drive monkey is a minimum Engineering-2, High Guard implies at one point), and Scout vessels are simply built to take more abuse than vessels that frequent B+ starports and Naval Bases (which is why Corsairs love Scout vessels so very, very, very much).
I like your compromise, and I like the implication of the RAW that space travel is really dangerous, especially on the famous "sparsely-settled frontier on the fringes of a powerful but remote interstellar government". Catching a Type-M between A and B ports in the Core might well be like modern air travel. Fine, but the rules should (and in CT, do) focus on the poor souls desperate and/or foolish enough to risk their skins in rusty old tramp traders (complete with alarmingly unreliable low berths) puttering around the semi-barbarous frontier.
Frankymole
SOC-12
Aren't jump governors on smaller ships integral?
www.freelancetraveller.com/features/shipyard/stm/jmpdrive.html
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Look at the dates on that article and the technology discussed - it is based on DGP's Starship Operators Manual for MT.
The jump governor didn't exist as a concept before HG1. 77 CT LBB2 jump drives burn their full fuel load regardless of jump distance (a jump 3 ship uses fuel for a jump 3 even if it only makes a jump 1) - which is how it worked in MT too until someone pointed out to DGP they had based MT on 77 edition rules rather than the revised 81 edition.
By HG2 and the revision of CT LBB2 in 81 the jump governor had disappeared as an add on component and drives now just work as if one is installed.
The jump governor didn't exist as a concept before HG1. 77 CT LBB2 jump drives burn their full fuel load regardless of jump distance (a jump 3 ship uses fuel for a jump 3 even if it only makes a jump 1) - which is how it worked in MT too until someone pointed out to DGP they had based MT on 77 edition rules rather than the revised 81 edition.
By HG2 and the revision of CT LBB2 in 81 the jump governor had disappeared as an add on component and drives now just work as if one is installed.
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
Mike (or anyone),
Do you know why it was changed?
(I understand why it would be annoying to people. But I'm curious about their either infection justification for the change or the gameplay aspect of the change.)
