Scouts in Wartime

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Bromgrev:
I've always used the Desert Rats...

Bromgrev,

Another good historical example.

As for ship size, I tend to agree that the AHL are an anomaly, and regular ships rarely exceed 600 dtons.

I wouldn't say +600dTons is rare. IMTU, the IISS has some large, long range, surveyor types plus the usual odds & sods; heavy lifters, transports, labs, packets, etc. What they don't have are lots of dedicated mutli-10KdTon warships.

The old Sulieman is too slow and far too recognisable to be much use in military spy-work.

For work at the sharp end Zho space, the olds Sooly has no use. However for the kinds of internal surveillance the Imperium performs plus any low level peace time work along the borders, those ubitquitous wedges are absolutely perfect.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
I like the Coast Guard idea a bit, but Bill and alanb made me think more of the Coast Watchers in the Pacific during WW2.

Yes. I was thinking of the Coast Watchers myself.

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Relatively small vessels skulking around in the vast out-system of any star constantly peering with their sensors at the inner system and the enemy forces there and sending information back.

The other aspect is what they do on-world, as well. They probably know more about a lot of backwater worlds than anyone else.

Unfortunately, a lot of the Scout Service chargen systems we have tend to be biased towards the guys in the little ships, rather than the contact teams and so on.

Even fairly long settled worlds are likely to have survey teams working out in the boondocks. Or at the bottom of the oceans, or...

Historical anecdote: while the Coast Watchers had spent most of the war studiously avoiding contact with the Japanese, by 1945 they were, in some areas, stirring up local populations to engage in guerrilla warfare. Bougainville was one of these examples.

The result was a wonderful example of warfare fought across different TLs. The Bougainvilleans were basically TL 0, with a few metal tools, plus whatever weapons they could capture. The Japanese were a poorly supplied and equipped TL 6 force. Needless to say the Bougainvilleans ran rings around them... Jungles, mountains and swamps tend to give a certain amount of home field advantage.

Obviously this is a perfect plot seed for a Traveller scenario. Say a world is occupied by the Sword Worlders or some equivalent bunch of second rate bozos. The PCs are an IISS stay-behind party...

 

[deadlock]

Greetings and salutations,

From Fritz88

I don't think most of the Scouts are equipped for things like Commerce Raiding, though. The Special or War Mission skill list in LBB6only has 1 skill out of 10 that even includes Gunnery and such. They are things like Streetwise, Equestrian, Forgery, Liaison, Survival, Gun Cbt, etc.

I did not mean to imply that the Scouts partake in any duty outside their normal Recon and Courier missions on a regular basis. Perchance I should have stated the condition of which they partake in the duties I had listed.

20/20 Hindsight...

 

[c_osborne]

That all helps. To be specific, my PCs are playing Expedition to Zhodane. They were out of the loop (mining asteroids) when the war started, but they are now returning to Lysen (in the Jewell subsector of the Spinward Marches) during the early part of the Fifth Frontier War. There was a notice put out earlier that year recalling all ISS personnel to active duty due to the war. Since two of the PCs are scouts, I needed to understand what this might mean. You've all been quite helpful. Thank you.

Chad

 

[deadlock]

We are all glad to help a fellow Traveller!

You're quite welcome!

 

[sid6.7]

I wouldn't say +600dTons is rare. IMTU, the IISS has some large, long range, surveyor types plus the usual odds & sods; heavy lifters, transports, labs, packets, etc. What they don't have are lots of dedicated mutli-10KdTon warships.




Have fun,
Bill

again that might be IYTU[IMTU] but thats
GM created rather then what the LBB say for a small ship universe...

the LBB 1-3 and 6 just dont support this really
HG does as they do have 1 catagorie called scouts
and HG allows 5k-1000kt ships, its really the
only suggestion i have found that would account
for large scouts out of the traditional 100t
vessels...
and that catagorie of scouts is really
a duoble catagorie...its listed as:

scout/stations

so again it would not be the norm in a fleet type
environment just like in the real world navies of today...
example yes the USCG has a 420 foot vessel
but its an ice breaker not a combat ship, an old
frigate class would rate around 400+ feet also...
but the entire USCG has only 5 in its fleet of
320+ cutters, if you include smaller craft they
only have 5 outa 1700+ ships/boats...

 

[Spiderfish]

Originally posted by Bromgrev:
I've always used the Desert Rats (British WWII long-range desert patrol) as a template for ISS missions IMTU. They don't get involved in combat unless absolutely unavoidable, and they are not too keen on working with commandos (the 'Rats were not very friendly with the new SAS).

Er... The Desert Rats is the nickname of the 7th Armour Division, the "Desert Rats" still exist as the 7th Armoured Brigade but they are not a recconaissance or scouting unit.

I assume you meant the Long Range Desert Group, originally the Long Range Patrol Group. They were known to the SAS as the "Libyan Desert Taxi Service".

They worked with each other all the time, the LRDG dropping off the SAS men and then extracting them once they had finished their mission.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by sid6.7:
the LBB 1-3 and 6 just dont support this really HG does as they do have 1 catagorie called scouts and HG allows 5k-1000kt ships, its really the only suggestion i have found that would account for large scouts out of the traditional 100t vessels...

Sid,

I'm having a little trouble following you here, but I'll give it a try...

- HG2 says nothing about IISS vessels, especially nothing about their size.

- IISS vessels over 100dTons are canonical; the AHL-class, the Donosevs, even the 1000dTon X-boat tenders. All of those actually predate LBB:6 Scouts.

... example yes the USCG has a 420 foot vessel but its an ice breaker not a combat ship...

Did I say the IISS flys combat ships? I don't think anyone said that other than Alte.

The IISS has bigger ships. They need very long range surveyors; A:2 Leviathan states they own a few Leviathan-class vessels in the Marches alone. They'll also have need for heavy transports to schleppe large-scale exploration parties and their equipment between worlds. They have their own jump6 courier network too. They'll have more than thousands and thousands of Suleimans.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[far-trader]

There is also a blurb in LBB Supplement 9 about the Scout Service.

"The Scout Service controls a wide variety of craft up to cruiser class... In time of war, such ships are pressed into military service, but have negligible combat value."

Cruiser class in the above meaning 20,000 to 100,000 tons, so the IISS has ships up to 20,000 tons at it's disposal. Though I would take it to mean most are in the next smaller range, Escorts, which are "small ships" of up to 5,000 tons. This size limit would also fit the service limitations of IISS Way Stations (10,000 tons max under wartime operations and Naval command, so it seems likely half that in peacetime at 5,000 tons).

 

[sid6.7]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by sid6.7:
the LBB 1-3 and 6 just dont support this really HG does as they do have 1 catagorie called scouts and HG allows 5k-1000kt ships, its really the only suggestion i have found that would account for large scouts out of the traditional 100t vessels...

Sid,

I'm having a little trouble following you here, but I'll give it a try...

- HG2 says nothing about IISS vessels, especially nothing about their size.

- IISS vessels over 100dTons are canonical; the AHL-class, the Donosevs, even the 1000dTon X-boat tenders. All of those actually predate LBB:6 Scouts.

... example yes the USCG has a 420 foot vessel but its an ice breaker not a combat ship...

Did I say the IISS flys combat ships? I don't think anyone said that other than Alte.

The IISS has bigger ships. They need very long range surveyors; A:2 Leviathan states they own a few Leviathan-class vessels in the Marches alone. They'll also have need for heavy transports to schleppe large-scale exploration parties and their equipment between worlds. They have their own jump6 courier network too. They'll have more than thousands and thousands of Suleimans.


Have fun,
Bill </font>[/QUOTE]1. go to HG page 33 under ship type codes
code S...is.....scout/station.

combine that with page 23 5k-1000k ships

and there is the vauge reference that scouts
could have large vessels...in HG only though


2. mine is A:4 levaithin it does state that the IGS do employ at least 2 levaithins but i see this
as again "non standard" something pressed into service in an emergency as its classed a merchant
class cruiser not a true scout vessel.

if you read A:4 page 23 it shows all the levaithins and who own them, which it does
show 2 in IGS hands i assume "offically" made
for the IGS rather then pressed into service
by article of war...it also notes HG USP
notations...which would take it out of the
CT small ship universe i think and put it in
HG universe....

this would make me say its 6 of one and
1/2 dozen to another...the glass is 1/2 full
the glass is 1/2 empty

really up to the GM in the end...as it is traveller...

 

[sid6.7]

Originally posted by far-trader:
There is also a blurb in LBB Supplement 9 about the Scout Service.

"The Scout Service controls a wide variety of craft up to cruiser class... In time of war, such ships are pressed into military service, but have negligible combat value."

Cruiser class in the above meaning 20,000 to 100,000 tons, so the IISS has ships up to 20,000 tons at it's disposal. Though I would take it to mean most are in the next smaller range, Escorts, which are "small ships" of up to 5,000 tons. This size limit would also fit the service limitations of IISS Way Stations (10,000 tons max under wartime operations and Naval command, so it seems likely half that in peacetime at 5,000 tons).

sigh...i sure wish i had all those neat LBB
i only have LBB 1-3 4 6 7 Ad:1-4 Sup:1-5
and Dbl:1-4

 

[sid6.7]

all this talk of scouts has motivated me to consider altering SHEN my CT random ship maker

it now does civilian or military ships
would others be interested if i broke
out scouts as a new section to it?

this of course would be small ship stuff
not HG...

sizes? duties? ideas?

i would pull the scout/courier
over to the scout section add
in an xboat type then 3-5 more types?

i went over the USCG ship types
and i came up with a few catagories....

ice breaker
hi endurance cutter
med endurance cutter
tenders
coast patrol
tugs

plus the:
standard scout/courier
xboats

transfering the types:
----------------------
ice breaker = deep space search and rescue, repair
probably in the 500-600t range

hi cutter = main line scout for fringe/border areas
400t range

med cutter = scout in controled/known space areas
300t range

tenders = refueling, repair or resupply vessels
200-300t range

coastal patrol = ?
200t range

tugs = ? navigation guide, beacon repair and control?
100-200t range

xboats = msg or quick recon ships
50-100t range? i dont have much
info on xboats...

 

[Pickles]

Originally posted by Spiderfish:
Er... The Desert Rats is the nickname of the 7th Armour Division

I stand corrected! Time to brush up on my WWII history ...

They were known to the SAS as the "Libyan Desert Taxi Service". They worked with each other all the time, the LRDG dropping off the SAS men and then extracting them once they had finished their mission.

You are correct again. IIRC now, Wavell called them 'the mosquito army' or some such. I believe they were very unhappy at being relegated to the position of taxi drivers to the new-fangled SAS.

Here's a useful reference site I just found.

 

[aramis]

I'd change Cutter to Corvette, to avoid small-craft confusion.

 

[sid6.7]

some new examples: but they really need help

Ship Name: XBOAT
Ship Type: 100 ton Xboat,

M-Drive Type: Grav Plates, Model 3
J-Drive Type: B, Jump- 4 CPU= 5
Power Plant: Batteries Storage = 9
Fuel( 40 )
Cargo Hold( 7 )tons
Bridge + 1 stateroom(s) + 0 lowBerth(s)

T-1 N/A, T-2 N/A, T-3 N/A, T-4 N/A, T-5 N/A
Missles on board: 0
Total Price: 84.5 m Down: 16.9 m Mortage: 352083 credits
NOTE** grav plates & batteries instead of manuver and power
on Graph paper you'll use about: 200 Squares
--------------------------------------------------


Ship Name: TUG
Ship Type: 100 ton Scout Tug, Streamlined

M-Drive Type: B, 2 G Model 2bis
J-Drive Type: B, Jump- 2 CPU= 6
Power Plant: B Storage= 0
Fuel( 40 )
Cargo Hold( 8 )tons
Bridge + 1 stateroom(s) + 0 lowBerth(s)

T-1 N/A, T-2 N/A, T-3 N/A, T-4 N/A, T-5 N/A
Missles on board: 0
Total Price: 95.5 m Down: 19.1 m Mortage: 397916 credits
NOTE** comes with 2 servo arms to grapple objects or vessels
on Graph paper you'll use about: 200 Squares
--------------------------------------------------

Ship Name: FRONTIER
Ship Type: 400 ton HE Scout Corvette, Streamlined

M-Drive Type: G, 3 G Model 5
J-Drive Type: G, Jump- 3 CPU= 12
Power Plant: G Storage= 25
Fuel( 150 )
Cargo Hold( 3 )tons +(1)20 ton Life boat(s) +(1)40 ton Pinance +(3)fighters
Bridge + 9 stateroom(s) + 6 lowBerth(s)

T-1 (B), T-2 (B,M,S), T-3 (B,S), T-4 N/A, T-5 N/A
Missles on board: 0
Total Price: 381.4 m Down: 76.28 m Mortage: 1589166 credits
NOTE** also includes +(1) 10t work vehicle
on Graph paper you'll use about: 800 Squares
--------------------------------------------------

Ship Name: CORE
Ship Type: 300 ton ME Scout Corvette, Streamlined

M-Drive Type: C, 2 G Model 4
J-Drive Type: C, Jump- 2 CPU= 8
Power Plant: C Storage= 15
Fuel( 80 )
Cargo Hold( 55 )tons +(1) 20t Life boat(s) +(1) 30t Ships Boat
Bridge + 8 stateroom(s) + 20 lowBerth(s)

T-1 (B,M,S), T-2 (B), T-3 N/A, T-4 N/A, T-5 N/A
Missles on board: 3
Total Price: 227.315 m Down: 45.463 m Mortage: 947145 credits
NOTE** also includes +(1)10t work vehicle +(1) 4t Air raft
on Graph paper you'll use about: 600 Squares
--------------------------------------------------

Ship Name: PATROLER
Ship Type: 200 ton Scout Patrol Corvette, Streamlined

M-Drive Type: C, 3 G Model 2bis
J-Drive Type: C, Jump- 3 CPU= 6
Power Plant: C Storage= 0
Fuel( 90 )
Cargo Hold( 12 )tons +(1) 20t Life boat(s) +(1) 10t work Vehicle
Bridge + 3 stateroom(s) + 44 lowBerth(s)

T-1 (B,S), T-2 N/A, T-3 N/A, T-4 N/A, T-5 N/A
Missles on board: 0
Total Price: 157.55 m Down: 31.51 m Mortage: 656458 credits

on Graph paper you'll use about: 400 Squares
--------------------------------------------------


yes i am trying to stress a small ship type for
scouts....maybe not 100% canon depending on your
view point...

feedback for these will help me also finish
the larger recovery vessel(500-600 tons)

and the multi purpose tender(200-300 tons)
vessel...

 

[Black Globe Generator]

IMTU the IISS is more like NOAA, with the non-law enforcement responsibilities of the USCG tacked on.

During wartime Scout Service vessels may be impressed as auxiliaries in the same way as merchant vessels. Scouts also perform some low-level SIGINT.

As far as warships...no, the Scouts are considered way too anarchic by the Imperial Navy to be trusted with weapons!

 

[jatay3]

I always pictured the IISS as rather like the Indian Political Service. This was the arm of the Raj in charge of diplomatic relations with vassal states and border tribes. Related to that was their sponsorship of expeditions into central asia to see how close the Russians were getting.

During World War I and the Russian Civil War a number of IPS agents did similar intel gathering in out-of-the-way places.

The analogy given earlier with Bagnold's men is compatible with this. Bagnold did a lot of charting and surveying and even wrote a famous book on desert geology. Aside from his recon and raiding.

The IISS would have more urgency then in peacetime although their duties would often not be much different. Arguably they would look for trouble more often but their chief value would be intell. Furthermore in some wilder areas there would not be much distinction between war and peace for a scout as the duties and dangers are the same. If the alleged Free Trader Good Hope disappears in Vargr space and the alleged innocent merchant captain John Doe ends up in some Vargr warlord's torture chamber, no doubt allegedly knowing nothing, the Imperium is not really going to make a fuss. Either it will extract John Doe or it won't but in either case it will be more frontier mayhem and nobody will worry.