Sector Data (economic)

mike wightman · Dec 25, 2023

What make of car do you own...

many aim for a German brand, some are happy with Japanese or South Korean. others will attempt to buy local.

Importing BMWs, Mercs and Porches to the states would still be a thing if the US government hadn't imposed tariffs so manufacture was moved to the States for some models. Yet others are still shipped half way around the world thanks to demand and the willing to pay the premium prices.

Condottiere · Dec 25, 2023

Onshoring, or onplaneting.

I hear that Kia makes some very popular models.

You'd have to make a rather detailed list of what industrial items are purchased locally, if they are, or alternatives, available locally, and from where they are imported from.

aramis · Dec 25, 2023

As an FYI - the trip between England and India around 1800 was 12-16 weeks + dock time round trip. 3-5 months.
That route was mostly speculation trade at the time.

Condottiere · Dec 26, 2023

There's the clipper/tea trade, which was valuable enough to tolerate a balance of trade deficit, then create an opium demand, and finally fight a war over.

Kakistocrat · Dec 26, 2023

mike wightman said:
Importing BMWs, Mercs and Porsches to the states would still be a thing if the US government hadn’t imposed tariffs so manufacture was moved to the States for some models.

Import tariffs on both new and used passenger automobiles have existed in the US for a long time. In 1964, the tariffs for both were 6.5% ad valorem for most countries, except for a list of then-Communist countries and territories, for which the tariffs were 10% ad valorem.

The present tariffs, dating from 2020, are subdivided into twelve categories, according to their engine types and sizes, and/or presence of electric motors. All of these categories have a 2.5% ad valorem tariff for most countries (i.e. those with “Normal Trade Relations” [NTR] with the US); non-NTR countries have a 10% ad valorem tariff. (A few countries might have a lower-than-NTR tariff due to bilateral agreements or the USMCA.)

The present 2.5% tariff for made-in-Germany passenger automobiles is lower than the 1964 6.5% tariff for made-in-West-Germany passenger automobiles.

TamsinP · Dec 27, 2023

Spinward Flow said:
What can Efate manufacture that Lunion CANNOT?

In theory, nothing. However, you are making the assumption that both Efate and Lunion will be manufacturing the same things. Although there will inevitably be some overlap in what they both produce, it could be that one specialises more in agricultural machinery whilst the other specialises in manufacture of armaments.

Spinward Flow · Dec 27, 2023

TamsinP said:
In theory, nothing. However, you are making the assumption that both Efate and Lunion will be manufacturing the same things. Although there will inevitably be some overlap in what they both produce, it could be that one specialises more in agricultural machinery whilst the other specialises in manufacture of armaments.

That's certainly true when you get way down into the weeds of FINE granularity on the specifics of each and every single world on the sector map with incredible levels of detail.

But when you're dealing with the COARSE granularity of UWP only to simplify each world into a spreadsheet (in the most simplistic way possible) you get a different answer ... that in the broadest possible sense (relevant to both Players and Referees) there are no products that Efate can manufacture that Lunion cannot (and vice versa).

The one market segment where that might NOT be true, as calculated by UWP, is the effects of Law Level and the export of TL=13 weaponry ... which would be "legal" at Efate but "prohibited" at Lunion, due to the differences in Law Levels.

The arsenal of oligarchy/autocracy?

So that could mean that Efate is a Major Armaments Exporter™ that is almost unchallenged in the Spinward Marches for manufacture and export relative to competing Industrialized worlds in the sector ... but in almost all other product markets, Efate is on a more competitive footing relative to other Industrialized world hubs.

mike wightman · Dec 27, 2023

Efate is making BMWs, Lunion is making Mercs. Which do you want to buy?

Grav_Moped · Dec 27, 2023

mike wightman said:
[Edited]Efate is making ~~BMWs~~ Bradleys, Lunion is making ~~Mercs~~ MRAPs. Which do you want to buy?

Edits mine. Bradleys come with the 25mm chain gun and TOW missiles as standard equipment because Efate doesn't have gun control*.

(*IMTU it's not for lack of trying -- the government just doesn't have enough control due to massive unrest to stop it...)

Condottiere · Dec 28, 2023

Manufacture under license.

Also, different systems could be manufactured at different planets, then assembled.

kilemall · Dec 28, 2023

Condottiere said:
Manufacture under license.

Also, different systems could be manufactured at different planets, then assembled.

Like starship letter drives and computers.

One ugly wrinkle- most versions have a make the whatever thing at 10% less per TL over general intro statement. So if you have a bunch of TL 8 customer worlds and a TL12 IND world, add 40% off to the 30% CT IND rate and you have 70% off source bulk buying.

All the knock on effects I outlined apply, with planets that are higher pop then NON-IND but not IND able to dominate local sub-KCr100 products.

Be kind of interesting to apply that to ag products, high tech ag might preserve longer, have higher taste genetically built in or entire designer crops/meat.

Condottiere · Dec 28, 2023

High technologized agricultural would be constant surveillance, and practically instant adjustment to nutrition, whether plant or animal.

Or, they just grow it in a vat and process the result into something recognizable.

Spinward Flow · Dec 28, 2023

Condottiere said:
High technologized agricultural would be

whartung · Dec 28, 2023

Condottiere said:
Manufacture under license.

Well thats the thing, right?

Consider modern car manufacturing.

BMW has a factory in the US. My Jeep was assembled in Michigan, with a German transmission, and a bunch of the design and engineering was done in Germany as well. It's as much a Mercedes as it is a Chrysler vehicle (since the company was Daimler-Chrysler back then).

A whole lot of Fords and such are assembled in Mexico.

My motorcycle was built in Germany with a Chinese manufactured motor designed by Germans.

Then, there's the regional bits. Like Land Rover and the famous Lucas Electrics (two setting, dim and flicker).

You can get a Land Rover from England that is a 4 wheels SUV, just like every other 4 wheel SUV save it has a Land Rover badge and their design and aesthetics ethos.

Now, it takes 2 to 3 times longer to ship from Efate to Regina than England to the US (by boat). Lunion to Regina is much further, 9 jumps. That's a lot of lag in the supply line. Not insurmountable, but...noticeable and something to think about. Could certainly encourage local final assembly with off world parts.

Grav_Moped · Dec 28, 2023

Condottiere said:
Manufacture under license.

Also, different systems could be manufactured at different planets, then assembled.

Good observation. Also, the trade and commerce rules were were written not just before containerization, but also before significant offshoring (maquliadoras, Chinese export industrialization). That is, industrial and technology products were assembled where they were designed, at the time.

Low-tech items such as furniture were sourced to exploit lower-cost labor, but this option was not yet available for higher-tech items. From the 1950s to 1970s, Japan was not noted for high-quality or sophisticated exports -- but that changed...

TamsinP · Dec 28, 2023

Grav_Moped said:
Good observation. Also, the trade and commerce rules were were written not just before containerization, but also before significant offshoring (maquliadoras, Chinese export industrialization). That is, industrial and technology products were assembled where they were designed, at the time.

Low-tech items such as furniture were sourced to exploit lower-cost labor, but this option was not yet available for higher-tech items. From the 1950s to 1970s, Japan was not noted for high-quality or sophisticated exports -- but that changed...

Containerisation was around in 1977, but wasn't a significant percentage of shipping (although growing rapidly).

Condottiere · Dec 28, 2023

Conditions have to be correct.

If you take the Peter Zeihan view on geopolitics, you have a hemispherical hegemon, that's willing to promote globalization at it's expense, though it's economic interest groups, security policies, and currency are allowed to predominate.

You had a post war combination of adequate technological solutions, disintegrating rival colonial empires, emerging markets, and a domestic consumer boom.

Imperium, megacorporations, Credit.

TamsinP · Dec 29, 2023

I've been checking the data for Aramis subsector against my copy of GURPS Far Trader - there is definitely something wrong with the way annual Trade and Passengers is calculated. For example, Corfu has annual trade of MCr 22 which implies the BTN is 1.0 but the passenger number is 13,220 which puts the effective BTN as 9.5 . Given that the effective BTN for passenger numbers is (BTN + modifiers) and the maximum modifier is +3 (if both worlds are Sector capitals and Rich worlds), Corfu's figures are massively off - there are four other worlds with the same discrepancy (Dhian, Nasemin, Pysadi and Towers). I suspect in those five cases that the issue is a miscalculation of the BTN for trade.

The other 8 systems with values for Trade and Passengers also show a discrepancy, but less extreme - +2 (Aramanx, Junidy, Lablon) and +2.5 (Aramis, L'oeuil d'Dieu, Patinir, Rugbord, Yebab).

I'll have a look at a few other subsectors to see if there are similar issues there.

TamsinP · Dec 29, 2023

TamsinP said:
I've been checking the data for Aramis subsector against my copy of GURPS Far Trader - there is definitely something wrong with the way annual Trade and Passengers is calculated. For example, Corfu has annual trade of MCr 22 which implies the BTN is 1.0 but the passenger number is 13,220 which puts the effective BTN as 9.5 . Given that the effective BTN for passenger numbers is (BTN + modifiers) and the maximum modifier is +3 (if both worlds are Sector capitals and Rich worlds), Corfu's figures are massively off - there are four other worlds with the same discrepancy (Dhian, Nasemin, Pysadi and Towers). I suspect in those five cases that the issue is a miscalculation of the BTN for trade.

D'oh!! It looks like I've been a blithering idiot - those 5 worlds were all trade BTN = 7.0, not 1.0; that puts them in the same discrepancy range between trade BTN and passenger BTN as the other 8.

TamsinP said:
The other 8 systems with values for Trade and Passengers also show a discrepancy, but less extreme - +2 (Aramanx, Junidy, Lablon) and +2.5 (Aramis, L'oeuil d'Dieu, Patinir, Rugbord, Yebab).

I'll have a look at a few other subsectors to see if there are similar issues there.

I've looked at a few other subsectors (Alun/Daibei, Ameros/Core, Akkula Worlds/Ilelish, Annari/Massilia and Aelluekh/Gvurrdon) and the same discrepancies are present (range = +1.5 to +3.0). I'm guessing that it is a consistent error in the calculations.

The only potential extreme discrepancy is for two worlds in Aelluek/Gvurrdon - Gnurs and Ourkan - which have less than MCr 1 trade (BTN = 0-6) and an effective BTN for passengers = 7.5; however, if the actual trade BTN is 4.5 or higher, it would put the discrepancy in the same range.

aramis · Dec 30, 2023

Grav_Moped said:
Good observation. Also, the trade and commerce rules were were written not just before containerization,

CHeck your sources. COntainerization starts in US Road and Rail in the late 1950's (from a 1956 standard), and was in mostly US use until the early 1970's, when the 1968 ISO standard was officially adopted. By 1975, most new large cargo ships were container-ships.

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