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Sensors and Engagement Ranges

This of course is the baseline I was originally going to work in, but even then it seemed a bit constraining for the spinal weapons which I think we can presume are significantly more powerful and/or are firing a multi-second beam in the case of the PAs and likely a 'flak pattern' of detonations in the case of Meson Guns.

And for the latter, who knows how long they can go before decaying? Although the short range +2 bonus suggests a clue that MGs really like to work in shorter time frames, I suppose because they have to be in the 'right place at the right time' detonation wise rather then 'just' hit the hull.
There is another problem with firing spinals - you have to line up your entire ship with the target for the time it takes for you to fire.
There is a neat rule in Mayday missing from LBB2 - using evade costs you maneuvering g. You have to split your maneuver drive thrust between evasion and movement.

Solution - HG agility has to be allocated to defensive DM and movement thrust.

An agility 6 ship can be 3g/-3DM or 1g/-5DM etc.

Now for the fun bit.

Agility defence DMs from both attacker and defender stack.
 
HG long range becomes inside 0.8ls, let's say 0,75ls is long range for HG weapons and 0.25ls is short range.

I'd be tempted to have three scales:
sensor scale - 0.2ls per hex (you could use this as the default scale for the whole game)
HG long range - 0.05ls per hex
HG short range - 0.01ls per hex.
 
There is another problem with firing spinals - you have to line up your entire ship with the target for the time it takes for you to fire.
There is a neat rule in Mayday missing from LBB2 - using evade costs you maneuvering g. You have to split your maneuver drive thrust between evasion and movement.

Solution - HG agility has to be allocated to defensive DM and movement thrust.

An agility 6 ship can be 3g/-3DM or 1g/-5DM etc.

Now for the fun bit.

Agility defence DMs from both attacker and defender stack.

Well, to me that was a given re: G vs. agility.

Also thinking about giving the firing ship a +1 if the target ship is at full burn- a lot less uncertainty about potential movement endpoints.

Not buying into stacking agility DMs, the maneuvering ship knows it is maneuvering and the maneuver/evade program would be feeding right into the targeting/gunnery programs to correct the target solution realtime for firing platform evades.

Only the enemy ship movements and lag time are a surprise and require wider firing patterns with a possibility of miss.

Speaking of which, if the ship can't move OR evade (no thrusters cause of no bridge or computer or workaround), I'm thinking everything hits on a 3+, no matter the range.

As for the spinal part, oh my yes, that is part of the fun of actually putting the HG ships out there moving as opposed to pseudo-Imperium resolution.

The Big Guns are going to have to work out their thrust/vee plan in order to maintain the range they want to be at.

I imagine a fair amount of maneuvering will involve a sort of battle line where the spinal ships are at their preferred course and vee and then swing around to fire for several turns. There is also a maneuver where you slide around curving in closer at lower burns between firings.

No agility during spinal fire. Oh yes.

And of course no firing the spinal weapon when they are accelerating away at pursuing craft. Unless the spinal weapon is pointed to the rear.
 
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Mayday's nice mechanic for "spending" maneuver points is elegant, and could get you a "power" trade-off for free as a secondary effect: divide your maneuver rating between acceleration, turning, and evasion DM. By the way, that gives you your "full burn" penalty for free, as well.

Also thinking about giving the firing ship a +1 if the target ship is at full burn- a lot less uncertainty about potential movement endpoints.

See my above comment.

Speaking of which, if the ship can't move OR evade (no thrusters cause of no bridge or computer or workaround), I'm thinking everything hits on a 3+, no matter the range.
I'd just make this a coup de gras.

No agility during spinal fire. Oh yes.
This is a nice, easy rule that has serious implications. I like it.
 
HG long range becomes inside 0.8ls, let's say 0,75ls is long range for HG weapons and 0.25ls is short range.

I'd be tempted to have three scales:
sensor scale - 0.2ls per hex (you could use this as the default scale for the whole game)
HG long range - 0.05ls per hex
HG short range - 0.01ls per hex.

Three reasons I wouldn't go this way-


  1. On a grand maneuver scale I need the movement AND sensors tripping when they get in range, so no need to have a separate sensor range track, just Big Movement and long range detection. Simplicity is key.
  2. Have to be able to mix long and short range on the same map, especially when you can have something whizzing through at high velocity that can go long range then short then long on the same turn. The 10,000 km hex stuff is for when you are getting down to sub-100,000 km ranges and you need to be tracking on that at least 1-2 turns beforehand.
  3. I would stick to multiples of 10, as they make the time/move conversions stupid simple as opposed to mixing 1/5/20 as above.
Oh ya, and I'm not going to respect the short/long range as a specific value for map distance, more like weapon performance alteration at X range, and a lot more nuance then short/long.


If I were to work within the CT detection/engagement paradigms, probably 1 LS short/1+-3 long.
 
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Mayday's nice mechanic for "spending" maneuver points is elegant, and could get you a "power" trade-off for free as a secondary effect: divide your maneuver rating between acceleration, turning, and evasion DM. By the way, that gives you your "full burn" penalty for free, as well.
Hmmm, not a fan of the maneuver points as to me ships are CONSTANTLY evading hence not so easy to damage at lag range, and thruster to turn the ship to point then accel is not different from what they are doing normally.

Agility is then the measure of how often the ship is using mains to accel the ship a little in odd directions to increase the targeting complications, since the M-drive can move the ship much further in X seconds then thrusters.



I'd just make this a coup de gras.
Eh. Probably very good for background battle resolution, not so much for player Scotty Drama like I am shooting for. You want the hair-raising 'oh hell no' results and consequences of maneuver loss, but enough time that they might make good on it or enough time to bail out if not.

Oh ya, forgot to mention that no maneuver also means autoselect of firing player on systems to damage. Could be just as useful to precisely damage for capture as opposed to intention to hulk the ship.

This is a nice, easy rule that has serious implications. I like it.
Ya I know.

Wait until you get a load of the countermeasures and the effects on battle formations and maneuver.
 
Also thinking about giving the firing ship a +1 if the target ship is at full burn- a lot less uncertainty about potential movement endpoints.
Vector movement doesn't work like that - the greater my g rating the higher the uncertainty about where I will be if I apply the lot to evading.

Not buying into stacking agility DMs, the maneuvering ship knows it is maneuvering and the maneuver/evade program would be feeding right into the targeting/gunnery programs to correct the target solution realtime for firing platform evades.
This is for spinals only, you can't throw your ship around and line up a spinal shot.

Only the enemy ship movements and lag time are a surprise and require wider firing patterns with a possibility of miss.
Your own evasive manoeuvres may not help you line up a shot on the evading enemy.

Speaking of which, if the ship can't move OR evade (no thrusters cause of no bridge or computer or workaround), I'm thinking everything hits on a 3+, no matter the range.
Works for me.

As for the spinal part, oh my yes, that is part of the fun of actually putting the HG ships out there moving as opposed to pseudo-Imperium resolution.
Ever played Power Projection Escort or Power Projection Fleet?

The Big Guns are going to have to work out their thrust/vee plan in order to maintain the range they want to be at.
Which , if both sides opt to do so, you end up with a fleet at long range for particles weapons and missiles or short range for meson guns and energy weapons - may as well abstract it :devil:

I imagine a fair amount of maneuvering will involve a sort of battle line where the spinal ships are at their preferred course and vee and then swing around to fire for several turns. There is also a maneuver where you slide around curving in closer at lower burns between firings.
if you want to maneuver like this both sides have to agree to it...


No agility during spinal fire. Oh yes.
In which case be prepared to work out alternative defensive DMs otherwise you may notice ships going boom rather too often :)

And of course no firing the spinal weapon when they are accelerating away at pursuing craft. Unless the spinal weapon is pointed to the rear.
Agree.
 
Vector movement doesn't work like that - the greater my g rating the higher the uncertainty about where I will be if I apply the lot to evading.

Don't think so, at all.

Note I am saying FULL G accel, as in everything on accel in one direction- short of that yes the agility rating is about higher and higher uncertainty the more you have to go in odd directions.

This is for spinals only, you can't throw your ship around and line up a spinal shot.

Of course you can. 70 seconds should suffice for virtually any roll/yaw especially with mains available, unless you are speccing Apollo-era thrusters, and the fire solution would be constantly running so you know what alignment you need on your specified target as part of the maneuver. A few seconds adjustment from target movement, and should be good to go in less then the 100 second phasing.

Your own evasive manoeuvres may not help you line up a shot on the evading enemy.

Even with the super detailed drama version I'm going to have roll and bearing but not figure out every single move every second. This is a game, not a computer flight sim.

Suffice to say, within 100 seconds the shot can be made, and in most cases the firing ship will know where the enemy ship is within a few hundred meter window at worst.

Ever played Power Projection Escort or Power Projection Fleet?

No, I ran across references to them while chasing down minis but I haven't seen chatter on them since I started following this forum. I looked them up, seems geared more for manuever feel and fast SSD resolution action then what I am shooting for, strong imaging and player action. What is the collective opinion on them?


Which , if both sides opt to do so, you end up with a fleet at long range for particles weapons and missiles or short range for meson guns and energy weapons - may as well abstract it :devil:

I am no fan of the perfect solution set in any game, that way lies boredom stagnation and other ugly things.

BIG design decision is of course maneuver drive/power vs. armor vs. weapon mix. The faster you can go as a fleet the more you can select ranges, but likely the more glass jaw you have. Putting HG on an actual maneuver map means how you move counts, and so even a slower fleet might have opportunities if they set their approach and vee well.

There are payoffs and risks for closing vs. holding distance. But this is why I think it's terribly important how the spinal weapons should play out range-wise.

if you want to maneuver like this both sides have to agree to it...

May not have a choice. Somebody has to refuel, somebody else has a starport and facilities and planets to defend. And sometimes both fleets have the same G-rating and so cannot extend or close ranges when they want to.

Plus, that runaway giving the other guy free spinal weapon shots thing. Not pleasant.


In which case be prepared to work out alternative defensive DMs otherwise you may notice ships going boom rather too often :)

I'm counting on boom. I want boom. This rule is just boom, small letters. This is not BOOM like I have in mind.

Countermeasures are a Big Deal, but firing something like a spinal weapon gives a darn good datum point as to Big Ship Exactly Here no matter the cloud of confusion devices- another reason for the no agility rule.
 
Alright, let's continue on with the following assumptions-


  1. TCS currency differential also implies more or less incrementalist capability along the order of 5-10% increases in line with the increases in weapon and computer power per TL.
  2. Weapons ranges will be determined and missile rules set to more or less match a multiple design solution set in coordination with spinal weapons.
  3. Energy/near-C weapons will degrade in hit probability and striking power as range increases.
  4. Sensors will be redone to match.


My basic scale for that is -1 to hit for every 100,000 kms. The weapon factor will play a role, without getting into it basically this means most turret/beam weapons will play out to 6-900,000 kms (the 2-3 LS from CT).


However, with spinal weapons, their factors are more in the hex 20-30s range, which would work out to an average of 2 million kilometers and the big ones in excess of 3 million kilometers.



That's 7-10 LS, out to which they will work out to be weak as kittens most of the time, but a serious jump over the bays and turrets yet shorter then the Mayday 15LS ones.



So, do those 'feel' like reasonable ranges to you given the maneuver game? What about sensors, at least military sensors with that kind of range?
 
sensors should have to consider what the target is AND what the sensor is

a Plankwell should have multiple sensors (Active and passive , + specials) + jammers+ ECM + ECCM all at levels of 15 to 16 sensitivity which get detections on the standard target at very very long ranges and target locks at a decent enough range (two orders of magnitude closer)
each order of magnitude bigger, more power hungry, or whatever than the standard target makes the target get target locked an order of mag closer.
so a Plankwell itself may have a signature +4 higher than the std target so gets detected and target locked a thousand times further out than the 100 dt standard target,, and my stealthed to the max, as small as can be made drones get an improvement of -2 so they get detected at the range a standard target gets target locked.

So how to simplify and make it less crunchy you ask? The sensitivity of your sensors is a factor of the hull area you have available to mount the antennas so in general the 500,000+ dton crowd get 16's. 50k ton get 15's 5k ton get 14's 500 tons get 13's and 100 tons get 12.5's. yes it's a linear relationship, the bigger you are the more sensor you can have, but also you get seen further out. So your signature + is also your sensor +. A special purpose craft can sacrifice other functions to gain more sensor an example would be a 1 dt drone that has a folding antenna for a 13.5 sensor, has to stop maneuvering to deploy the antenna and increases it's reflected signature when the antenna is deployed by a +1 from a 1 Dt to a 10 Dt. Please see my thread in the fleet section for the how to use sensors.
 
I'll consider your proposal Warwizard. I was going in a different direction, computing power, with the idea that datalinked VLA type detection from linked ships would be a much more powerful detection array then one superpowered ship.

The Big Dog ships could pay up to have that capability and might naturally just to have multiple computers for damage capacity vs a huge amount of capability tied up in that hull, but I want AWACs type specialized destroyer/cruisers possible too, along with the aforementioned VLA formation capability.

Please point me to a link to your intended thread.

Right now I am more interested in the feel of how far long range should be then sensor mechanic specifics. We can referee/theorycraft what the game needs.

Detection ranges are terribly important. They define the terms under which vee and course are set, and therefore the tactics and flow of the battle.
 
Thanks for the link, I had read it before, and had been considering how to do what you were doing with the SOP without all the bling.

Reading between the lines of your thread, I can see the bare bones of what Striker started brought forward into the various starship builds. And one might reasonably expect I want that, given all my yammering about SS3 and fighting the ship.

Well. Not exactly.

What I want to present to my players is choices, not necessarily my ubernerdery re: game mechanics and my sense of future space combat, or create a second by second space sim worthy of a computer game.

And to preserve the economic tradeoffs built into CT and HG, not throw them out the window.

Four second action cycles for anti-missile work is all well and good, but really ultimately shooter mechanics, when you can have a die roll for hit/miss and the player's attention is on 'should we throw all power into the anti-missile lasers or should we go agility or take one last desperate shot with the spinal weapon'.

The other part I want to do is to concentrate on using BES principles, Brutally Elegant Simplicity.

So for instance, in the case of your point re: the hull, I won't be defining antenna this and dish that- sensors are arrays across the hull, and won't be lost until the ship is near death anyway.

But in this case size DOES matter in that the larger hulls would have larger arrays, your point was very well taken.

So, how do we BES this problem set?

Simple, we use the existing HG size mechanic -2 to +2 used for to-hits, and apply it as a modifier for detection/lockon.

Smaller fighters/craft wouldn't be mounting long range detection systems anyway, and would be using their speed for their recon work.

ACS would not be largish warships and would have a disadvantage that way. They would have to make up for it with the other modifying elements- computers, TL, skill and military/scout abilities (likely computer programs).

And what of my VLA system?

Well, if the ships are linked in a VLA, then their tonnage is added together and treated as a single tonnage ship for purposes of determining the size/array modifier.

Not to say that your mechanic is unsound, just not the effect I am looking for.

It all ties into the game effect you want and what elements would be compelling for your players. That's why I am very very interested in opinions on the time scale/weapons/energy allocation elements using HG ships in a Mayday move setting.
 
Ok, here is a Mayday:HG variant to illustrate the weapons effect I want. It is in no way to be taken as a serious variant, only an illustration and thought experiment.

Everything is as is in Mayday HG rules except-


  1. Battle Maneuver is an additional power setting to define and make available, where the ship is valued for Agility/Accel with minimal defenses powered, to include Repulsors and a portion of lasers/energy weapons tasked to anti-missile work.
  2. Any proportion of Agility put to Acceleration is not available for the Agility defensive modifier.
  3. If all available Agility is put into Acceleration, no Agility defense is possible and Spinal Weapons cannot be aimed at any targets except straight ahead.
  4. Initiative is rolled for each turn, modified by the Fleet Tactics skill of the commanding admirals, and higher skilled Ship Tactics captains then the opposing admiral may make their own roll.
  5. Lowest initiative rolled fleets and ships move first, then subsequent fleet/ships moved in order of lowest to highest initiatives.
  6. Firing is conducted after movement per range phase as per the proportional chart below. Fire from a ship may be split between multiple targets, but the targets must all be at the same range.
  7. There are 15 firing phases, each executed in order.
  8. Firing phase eligibility is determined by the distance to intended targets and cross-indexed to the phase in play.
  9. If more then one ship/fleet is eligible during the same phase, their fire is conducted in order of highest initiative to lowest, ties are simultaneous. The effects occur immediately so it is possible for a ship to be destroyed immediately before it is eligible to fire.
  10. If an enemy target ship is destroyed before all firing ship fire is completed, the rest of the shots allocated to that ship can be shifted to another target ship with a -4 DM penalty. On the next firing phase the new target ship may be allocated normally and no penalty applies.
  11. If a firing ship wants to change to a target ship further away then the ship(s) fired on last phase, the firing ship loses that firing phase and is eligible to fire on the more distant ship on the firing phase afterwards.
 
An interesting discussion, with lots of superb details.

However, it really is enough to make my head hurt.

I suspect this is one of the reasons why I don't use Traveller for my spaceship combat games.
 
The proportionate firing phase chart is modelling the 20-minute HG firing turns, 15 phases to every 300 minute Mayday turn. Fortunately this also corresponds to the short range/long range paradigm already in the rules.

The idea is that when a firing phase becomes eligible, the firing ship has been firing at the target(s) all along, possibly for hours, and the longer the range the more shots it takes to get a successful hit, abstracted instead of DM'd out.

At 0 range the firing ship(s) can fire two phases, modelling the greater hit probability and destructiveness possible, hence the doubled phase number.

Sorry for this table, near as I can tell the TH header function for bbcode is malfunctioning somehow, can't eliminate this whitespace, this is the best I can get.

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Phase/Range0123456789101112131415
12111111111
242222221
3633332221
484443331
5105544321
6126655432
71477665544
8168764321
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102010987752
11221110998664
12241211108743
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An interesting discussion, with lots of superb details.

However, it really is enough to make my head hurt.

I suspect this is one of the reasons why I don't use Traveller for my spaceship combat games.

I assure you this stuff is simple pie compared to those two same era Steve Cole games, Star Fleet Battles and Starfire.

The computer game Starfleet Command was a faithful rendering of SFB, but still simpler then the real thing. All those controls and options were done by plot and paper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwQ3rm0LcWU

Those Squadron Strike ship cards remind me of simplified SFB SSDs.

That being said, I'm unlikely to go fullbore into what I am gathering is the Striker version of Traveller ship combat, the MgT version feels cramped at those sub-50,000 km ranges and I'm skipping T5 for now until it's a bit cleaner.

I'm content with CT:HG and Mayday movement promises a lot less graph paperwork (our usual method for Traveller and Harpoon).

I think HG could play out to be a whole new game if you actually maneuver the ships, especially with the maneuver/fire limitations of spinal weapons brought to light and high vee missile terror (which is not in this latest thought experiment).

I want to be able to do fast hex battles but with nuanced ranges, absolute screaming ACS terror at facing anything larger then 1000 tons or 20 fighters or closer then 100,000 kms and engineering drama.

But first I have to get the weapons ranges and maneuver 'right' so not too explodey, not too easy escape/evade, and full opportunity for sneaking and smart captaining.

Too much chrome and it all gets a bit much, the key is to give atmosphere AND significant player choices/effects without spending your game time wallowing in charts and DM calcs.

Big aspect is having all the players involved in the ship's doings, and so why I am laser focused on time phasing and player roles- it doesn't show here, but it's likely going to drive my final design decisions.

You have to work the extreme cases though for a system that survives contact with players.
 
Meh.

Fine effort, but it's still a stats-fest. Maneuver or no. Fleet with best stats wins.

Essentially, you have two ships closing on each other blasting away as quickly, and often as practical. Two men in a bull ring with machine guns running at each other trying to see who dies first. Every now and then, one of them might do a Jame T. Kirk body roll. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0177789/quotes?item=qt0424445)

There's no reason to maneuver other than to close or run away. Facing only affects the spinal, but there's no motivation to not just fly headlong in to each other. If the facing ends up making the spinal impractical, folks will simply design them out of ships to get more turrets/bays, and save costs (which nets more turrets and bays on the field). All the spinal really does it keep a ship from changing speeds. But this isn't really a disadvantage, since ships will likely be coasting more than not, and when they do need to accelerate, it's more than likely they're doing it to "run away" and the spinal would be out of arc anyway. So, no blasting opponents in a running retreat with the spinal.

Since there is really no facing, maneuver benefits/punishes both attacker/defender. A fast opponent can fly up on a slow opponent, but both benefit from the close range. In fact, if the fast attacker doesn't have initiative, he's punished by getting to shoot second, despite being the one that controls the engagement range.

Your phase chart is no different, conceptually, than the SFB impulse chart. It's just backwards. In SFB you have 32 firing opportunities, and N movement opportunities based on your speed. You have N firing opportunities based range.

The way I read this is that in a normal round, a ship will move. And in the extreme case of two ships closing to range zero, they then get to proceed to pump 30 shots into each other. So, basically range 0 has 30 times the chance to hit than range 15. But I assume the to-hit number is the same regardless of range, since the phasing makes long range "harder to hit" due to less shots involved. Otherwise, range gets doubly punished.

The only real benefit of this mechanic is that larger ships will be more destructive to smaller ships as they can change their fire throughout 15 phases of the firing sequence. So, a ship with 100 turrets, having to roll, say, 50% chance to hit (I have no idea what your hit numbers are, but I assume they're not based on range, since the phase mechanic handles that), at range 8, can inflict 400 hits on a single ship down to 50 hits on 8 individual ships (assuming all at the same range). So you can easily see this eating up small ships (like fighters, or missiles -- missiles are toast in this system). In contrast to a normal combat round where the ship would have to allocate all of their fire once, and make 12 attempts per target, resulting in 6 hits per target. But they likely wouldn't do that. Better to destroy them one at a time than damage them equally. Anyway, the phase system gives the firing player finer resolution over the placement of their shots in contrast to the single round combat. They get to shoot and evaluate many more times than the 1 move, 1 shoot idiom.

In the end, depending on how you manage the hit numbers, the only real difference between this and normal mayday/high guard is potentially lethality, simply because of higher fire rates.

But if the hit numbers are adjusted to basically be "the same" as "one round of high guard", then the only real difference is the resolution and placement of the fire over numbers of targets. One on one, ship to ship, there wouldn't be any difference at all. Just more dice rolling to lesser effect.

Anyway, TL;DR - yea, you can maneuver, but it doesn't really matter in the end. Phase system is basically a complicated range mechanic (with a slight benefit of higher fire resolution).

FYI you can eliminate the whitespace in those posts by eliminating the line breaks in your HTML table. Just make your table one long line.
 
I assure you this stuff is simple pie compared to those two same era Steve Cole games, Star Fleet Battles and Starfire.

You obviously do not know starfire from the first 2 editions. It's extremely simple and straighforward.

Later edition 2, and all of edition 3, is David Webber. Yes, the same David Webber better known for Honor Harrington. And increasing complexity to the point of pain.
 
You obviously do not know starfire from the first 2 editions. It's extremely simple and straighforward.

Later edition 2, and all of edition 3, is David Webber. Yes, the same David Webber better known for Honor Harrington. And increasing complexity to the point of pain.

I agree completely with your characterization, if nothing else Starfire was everything SFB was not (make your own ship/bash it/fast quick battle/simple rules), but then yes it got way crazy once it was no longer Cole's property.

Weber is the spelling I believe.

In many respects though Star Citizen is using the Starfire movement entirely, both top end in system speed AND the warp points, although more for the intended effect of a MMORPG which is a different beast entirely from either an RPG or a wargame.
 
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