Shipyards, TL, Spending, War

[RainOfSteel]

In my opinion.

For a military's ships of the line, world's at a polity's maximum TL are going to be selected for construction if at all possible, especially if they have high shipyard capacity.

For example, in the Imperium, this means that the majority of the budgets available for spending on military ships are going to avoid worlds between TLs 1-14.

For the TL-15 worlds with high shipyard capacity (Pop 9 or A, Industrial), the amounts of money spent through them annually will far exceed all the other worlds by a large amount. Secondary economic development due to the spending will outstrip that occurring on all TL 1-14 worlds, leaving them in what amounts to the dustbin of history. I don't like this implication, but am not immediately sure what I want to do about it (with "do about it" being some solution preventing the Imperium (or other nations) from being a skeleton built around its max-tech worlds).

Recently I have obtained the TravellerMap UWP data. For the six main nations, plus all the Vargr at once, a count of their tech TL-15 worlds at population 9 or A:

Allegiance  Count
As            3
Hv            28
Im            133
Kk            18
So            1
Va            1
Zh            4

The Imperium has 133 High-Pop worlds at TL-15, and one at TL-16 at 1122 Vincennes/Vincennes/Deneb. I'm not sure I accept the TL-16 rating, as it strongly implies the Imperium will attempt to build its entire navy at Vincennes, no matter how much it has to spend on additional shipyard capacity.

The Hivers and K'Kree are at number 2 and 3 behind the Imperium in position, but the capacities are 21% and 13% of the Imperium;s. The Zhondani, Aslan, Solomani and Vargr are all in terrible distant capacities at 3%, 2%, .7%, and .7% of the Imperium's. Only one of the Vargr's nations has a High-Pop TL-15 world, and the the rest are lower Pops and/or TLs.

I would like to point out that based on this, what I see suggests that the Aslan, Solomani, Vargr, and Zhondani would all stand literally no naval chance against the Imperium, even if they all attacked at once, such as in the Rebellion timeline. If the Imperium ramped up and attacked, the rest would fall from a naval perspective.

I am also not sure what I plan on doing about this IMTU.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

For example, in the Imperium, this means that the majority of the budgets available for spending on military ships are going to avoid worlds between TLs 1-14.

Yes, the Imperium has a tech advantage against most enemies. How big an advantage differs with the chosen design and combat system.

Note that in the Rebellion the Imperium basically destroyed itself in civil war. The Zho had their own problems IIRC.

 

[flykiller]

For example, in the Imperium, this means that the majority of the budgets available for spending on military ships are going to avoid worlds between TLs 1-14.

what, you're going to pass up high-pop worlds like palique, efate, lunion, strouden, and fornice?

palique can build high-armor hulls. efate/lunion/strouden can build j4 drives and turret weaponry for any vessel. porozlo and fornice can build hulls and power-plants for support ships. even junidy can build cargo hulls for the fleet transports - there's a huge number of 4900 dton cargo modules that the higher tech levels won't have to deal with.

there are other tricks too. look at efate/louzy - that's quite an industrial hub, I rule that it doubles efate's capacity. and if a world is industrialized I rule it's capacity is 1.2 of standard.

For the TL-15 worlds with high shipyard capacity (Pop 9 or A, Industrial), the amounts of money spent through them annually will far exceed all the other worlds by a large amount.

doesn't matter how much is spent, the limitation is the worlds' capacity to build. tcs says 1 dton per 1000 population, and if anything that's generous, so I take it as a hard limit.

The Imperium has 133 High-Pop worlds at TL-15

ok, but most them are quite a distance away, and ships need maintenance. if you take the shipyard capacity of ten worlds and dump them on one, that one world won't be able to maintain it all. and most fleet enlisted personnel won't be interested in spending two years jumping away from their homeworld. so while the imperium has 133 or whatever high-pop high-tech worlds it can't bring them all to bear. (and that assumes they're all culturally and/or religiously willing to become an arsenal of the emperor - not a given.)

Solomani

solomani uber alles!

 

[flykiller]

Yes, the Imperium has a tech advantage against most enemies. How big an advantage differs with the chosen design and combat system.

and this presumes the fleets actually engage. with jump, there are no fronts, there are only zones of operation, and any information from outside an immediate system is at least one week old and cannot be acted on short of two weeks later. yeah, a man can crush a fly - if he can hit it.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

For example, in the Imperium, this means that the majority of the budgets available for spending on military ships are going to avoid worlds between TLs 1-14.

what, you're going to pass up high-pop worlds like palique, efate, lunion, strouden, and fornice?

Yes, of course.

E.g. between the four TL-F ports in the Spinward Marches they have a capacity of 36 MDt. With a mean building time of three years and a replacement rate of 40 years, that is means we can keep a fleet of 36/3×40 = 480 MDt or about 2400 battleships, far more than the Imperium maintains in the sector.

Since TL-F warships are both cheaper and far more effective than lower tech warships, at least in CT, it makes no sense to build low tech warships.


The IN can build auxiliaries at lower tech worlds, but capacities are actually lower at TL-11 to TL-13 (~25 MDt each) and much lower at TL-14 (~3 MDt).

But again, lower tech ships are more expensive for the same capability.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Example auxiliary: J-4, wilderness refueling, 10 kDt payload:

QT-L641443-000000-00000-0     MCr 16 229      29 000 Dton
bearing                                          Crew=146
batteries                                           TL=13
                 Cargo=10303 Fuel=12760 EP=1160 Agility=1

Single Occupancy                                 10 303    16 229
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             L         29 000          
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                    2 320
Scoops              Streamlined                                29
                                                                 
Jump Drive                             4    1     1 450     5 800
Manoeuvre D                            1    1       580       870
Power Plant                            4    1     2 320     6 960
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-4, 4 weeks            4    12 760          
Purifier                                    1       319         2
                                                                 
Bridge                                      1       580       145
Computer            m/4                4    1         4        30
                                                                 
Staterooms                                146       584        73
                                                                 
Cargo                                            10 303          
                                                                 
Empty hardpoint                           100       100          
                                                                 
Nominal Cost        MCr 16 228,91        Sum:    10 303    16 229
Class Cost          MCr  3 408,07       Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 12 983,13

And at TL-15 the cost goes down from GCr 16 to GCr 11:

QT-L641443-000000-00000-0     MCr 10 990      25 000 Dton
bearing                                          Crew=116
batteries                                           TL=15
                 Cargo=10017 Fuel=11000 EP=1000 Agility=1

Single Occupancy                                 10 017    10 990
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             L         25 000          
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                    2 000
Scoops              Streamlined                                25
                                                                 
Jump Drive                             4    1     1 250     5 000
Manoeuvre D                            1    1       500       750
Power Plant                            4    1     1 000     3 000
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-4, 4 weeks            4    11 000          
Purifier                                    1       165         2
                                                                 
Bridge                                      1       500       125
Computer            m/4                4    1         4        30
                                                                 
Staterooms                                116       464        58
                                                                 
Cargo                                            10 017          
                                                                 
Empty hardpoint                           100       100          
                                                                 
Nominal Cost        MCr 10 989,65        Sum:    10 017    10 990
Class Cost          MCr  2 307,83       Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr  8 791,72

 

[Condottiere]

Imperium ship building programmes appear to be very much provincially based, using facilities and resources available there, multiplied by the prevailing threat level.

As I recall Trillion Credit Squadron, about twenty percent of starting budget has to be allocated to shipping one technological level down.

And then you can add the Zumwalts.

For the Aslan, it would be likely Klingoish, with shared technologies and agreements to trade for manufactured weapon systems amongst themselves, but heavily dependent on the Clan's own military industrial complex and financial resources.

Zhodani are likely to have a more Soviet approach to military procurement.

With the Vargr you can go hog wild, which can be anything from Orcs, to Vikings, and at the upper end, Moties. You might have thought Klingons, but Klingons are more organized.

As regards to the Solomani, for whatever reason their military industrial complex is a step behind, but they've concentrated on building capital ships (in our sense, not Traveller five kay tonne sense) that are easily upgradeable, once the advanced ship systems become available. At the other end of the scale, they have lots of two kay tonne and less ships, that are probably meant to be cheap and easy to build, and thereby expendable.

The Confederation was created by Solomani. They rebelled. They evolved. There are many colonies. And they have a plan.

 

[RainOfSteel]

what, you're going to pass up high-pop worlds like palique, efate, lunion, strouden, and fornice?

My understanding is that they cannot build TL-15 vessels, so they will not receive orders to build them.

palique can build

But all those components would not be built at TL-15. I don't recall reading anything forbidding or allowing including lower tech level systems installed on higher TL vessels to complete them, such as TL-13 Jump Drives on TL-15 vessels. I am not sure at all how I would handle that. Do TL-13 and TL-15 systems successfully tolerate integration/connection with each other? Does a TL-7 late 1970s automobile internal combustion engine successfully take a cylinder from a TL-5 late 1930s automobile internal combustion engine? I think they would not work together. Would it double or triple the annual maintenance costs? Would it drop the discount from building multiple vessels? Increase misjump chances?

Moving a TL-13 J-4 drive for a 200,000 dTon vessel one parsec would cost MCr 10. This isn't like delivering a finished 777 airline tail from Australia to Seattle for Boeing.

there are other tricks too. look at efate/louzy - that's quite an industrial hub, I rule that it doubles efate's capacity. and if a world is industrialized I rule it's capacity is 1.2 of standard.

That would make for an interesting trade code, maybe Ic(partner world name and hex). You'd have to apply it outside regular UWP generation since it is outside single-UWP generation. However, can you help me out in understanding how TL-8 Louzy helps TL-D Efate.

ok, but most them are quite a distance away

Imperial Navy Bases are all over and they may repair or maintain navy vessels.

 

[mike wightman]

Regina is TL10.

General Shipyards has a shipyard on Regina.

It builds TL15 Kinunir class vessels for the Imperial Navy.

In the Traveller Adventure the Imperial Navy is using a civilian shipping line to transport a couple of spinal meson guns - Js if memory serves so 1000t each - so theri is canonical example of large components being shipped long distances.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Regina is TL10.

Regina is TL-12.

From TravellerMap:

A788899–C

General Shipyards has a shipyard on Regina.

It builds TL15 Kinunir class vessels for the Imperial Navy.

Did it also state that the Kinunir's were being built at Regina? If so, and it was not an oversight, a great deal of what I understand about where ships of what TLs can be built falls apart.

In the Traveller Adventure the Imperial Navy is using a civilian shipping line to transport a couple of spinal meson guns - Js if memory serves so 1000t each - so theri is canonical example of large components being shipped long distances.

J-Meson Spinal mounts are TL-15. I guess it's not impossible for one TL-15 world to make a system for another TL-15 world that is building a ship , but shipping two such spinal mounts from Trin to Glisten (for example), would take seven jumps (five two-parsec and two one-parsec), for:

2000 dTons * 1000 Cr/dTon * 7 jumps = 14 MCr

Ouch, since Glisten could have made them itself.

 

[Timerover51]

In my opinion.

For a military's ships of the line, world's at a polity's maximum TL are going to be selected for construction if at all possible, especially if they have high shipyard capacity.

For example, in the Imperium, this means that the majority of the budgets available for spending on military ships are going to avoid worlds between TLs 1-14.

Just curious, have you ever worked in military procurement? Have you ever thought about how a world government is going to explain to its citizens that all of the money for naval construction is going to another planet that is far away, and takes months to reach?

 

[mike wightman]

Regina is TL-12.

Regina is TL 10 in CT material, especially the A1 Kinunir

From TravellerMap:

A788899–C

I don't use Traveller map, I use original setting sources rather than retcons based on a typo (look up the TL of Regina in the extended system generation in LBB6 - it is still TL10 on page 54 - 1983)

Did it also state that the Kinunir's were being built at Regina? If so, and it was not an oversight, a great deal of what I understand about where ships of what TLs can be built falls apart.

Consider it shattered. General Shipyrds on Regina built TL15 Kinunir class vessels for the IN according to A1.

J-Meson Spinal mounts are TL-15. I guess it's not impossible for one TL-15 world to make a system for another TL-15 world that is building a ship , but shipping two such spinal mounts from Trin to Glisten (for example), would take seven jumps (five two-parsec and two one-parsec), for:

2000 dTons * 1000 Cr/dTon * 7 jumps = 14 MCr

Ouch, since Glisten could have made them itself.

They are being shipped to TL11 Aramis from Inthe.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

A1 Kinunir was published before HG'80 introduced strict TL limits, hence obviously not bound by it.

An adventure can hardly "shatter" a rule that did not exist at the time...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Have you ever thought about how a world government is going to explain to its citizens that all of the money for naval construction is going to another planet that is far away, and takes months to reach?

As per LBB5 navies procures locally. A planetary navy procures from the local planet or perhaps a nearby world. The Imperial Navy is free to procure from any Imperial world.

Hence the Imperial Navy builds TL-15 ships, provincial navies may not be so lucky.

 

[McPerth]

ok, but most them are quite a distance away, and ships need maintenance. if you take the shipyard capacity of ten worlds and dump them on one, that one world won't be able to maintain it all. and most fleet enlisted personnel won't be interested in spending two years jumping away from their homeworld. so while the imperium has 133 or whatever high-pop high-tech worlds it can't bring them all to bear. (and that assumes they're all culturally and/or religiously willing to become an arsenal of the emperor - not a given.)

I guess most the building is done in core worlds, and then sent where they are needed, while those precious TL 15 border shipyards are mostly dedicated to such maintenance. This way, Glisten, Rhylaor or Mora would be mostly dedicated to the SM fleet maintenance, with Little true military building performed on them, as they are close enough for the whole fleet to be so maintained.

I always believed that IN fleet assets are quite rotated among several Imperium zones, so that their loyality is kept to 3I instead of becoming provincial, so to say (I already told about it time ago, this was one of the problems Roman legions faced), so, sending the newly built ships from the Core to the Borders would not be a major issue for it.

Regina is TL 10 in CT material, especially the A1 Kinunir

I don't use Traveller map, I use original setting sources rather than retcons based on a typo (look up the TL of Regina in the extended system generation in LBB6 - it is still TL10 on page 54 - 1983).

But Regina is TL 12 in SMC, also CT material...

The argument is quite old, I'm afraid...

And while A1 Kinnunir allows the TL15 BCs to be built in Regima (and, IITC TTB allows TL15 spinals to be built in Aramis TL 11 shipyards, all of this is fully against the rules given in CT:LLB5:HG ,also CT...

(I'm afraid those inconsistencies are quite common in Traveller material).

Just curious, have you ever worked in military procurement?

Speaking of myslef, no, so take anything I say about it with a big grain of salt

Have you ever thought about how a world government is going to explain to its citizens that all of the money for naval construction is going to another planet that is far away, and takes months to reach?

And why should it even bother to? As Imperium Works, it is not responsive to the worlds governments or citizens, as soverignty emanes from the Emperor down, not the other way.

In fact, it's not even clear how does the Imperium finances itself, so it may well do it from the Interstellar trade taxes, not from direct citizens taxes. If so, if a world government does not want to contribute, ok, it's interdiceted and he has no longer to...

And if it has complaints, they can file them to the IN squadrons Commander in the zone, who wil lbe glad to "give them some reasons to be more reasonable" (that's one of the reasons I think the 3I prefers his Naval personnel not to become attached to their deplyment provinces, and so rotates it on a quite frequent basis).

 

[flykiller]

Do TL-13 and TL-15 systems successfully tolerate integration/connection with each other?

if they're so designed, sure.

This isn't like delivering a finished 777 airline tail from Australia to Seattle for Boeing.

... why not? well if you don't want it to be, then ok. but this is tech 13/15 after all.

Imperial Navy Bases are all over and they may repair or maintain navy vessels

to their capacity, sure. what is their capacity?

can you help me out in understanding how TL-8 Louzy helps TL-D Efate

... I kinda doubt it. deckplate, staterooms, castings, switches lights and knobs, hatches and gaskets, wire and cabling, aluminum tubing, desks and chairs, bearings and braces, air tanks and pressure gage systems, bidets, O2 tanks, air ducting and vents, label plates, security cameras, batteries, cutlery and dinner trays, the little nozzles on the wet vaccs the housekeeping robots will use ...

... etc.

how a world government is going to explain to its citizens that all of the money for naval construction is going to another planet that is far away

heh.

Glisten, Rhylaor or Mora would be mostly dedicated to the SM fleet maintenance, with Little true military building performed on them

now that would work ...

I always believed that IN fleet assets are quite rotated among several Imperium zones

... but that wouldn't, the enlisted wouldn't tolerate that - not likely the officers would tolerate that either. would wind up looking like the soviet army where the enlisted were in and out in a single term and officers did everything remotely important.

so take anything I say about it with a big grain of salt

you forgot about trin, so yeah.

As Imperium Works, it is not responsive to the worlds governments or citizens, as soverignty emanes from the Emperor down, not the other way

vox populi vox dei. don't want to lose the mandate of heaven, do you? or the kingdom of god will be taken from you and given to others ....

 

[flykiller]

But Regina is TL 12 in SMC, also CT material...

well my little black book "spinward marches" says 10, so retcons are just retcons.

but of course there's no reason wny tech levels can't change over time (now doesn't that open up a shipping container of worms ....).

 

[Condottiere]

Boeing outsourced a lot of components on cost cutting grounds (which I understand happened after McDonnell Douglas executives executed an internal coup), which probably contributed to a lot of it's problems.

Airbus has a distributed manufacturing programme on political grounds, but designed that from the very beginning.