Sick Bays

[jhulse]

The following is taken from a thread under the GURPS Traveller section on this board. Even though the thread was started to try and figure out why the sizes indicated on charts in the back of GURPS Starships didn't seem large enough, I think that it could help flush out sizes in the T20 set of rules as well.

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For a small 1/2 ton emergency aid station, I can see one bed folding down, protruding 2 feet or so into a common space or corridor. Part of the "equipment" is also two cots that can be unfolded and place just about anywhere. Other than that I can't see much more room than a small work station for the medic along with some base and wall cabinets for medical supplies. That would mean (in a 5' wide x 5' deep alcove off the corridor) you could have room for a 30" seat/bunk for patients, and a 30" wide workstation/storage cab for the medic. But you can also arrange it so that it's 10' wide and only 30" deep. Basically a row of medical cabinets and work stations, with a fold down bed extending a full 5' or so into a corridor or common room. As long as the 1/2 ton space is filled.

Also, I just went to the doctors office yesterday (really bad sinus infection) and the examination room was exactly 10' x 10'.
(Just a note to everyone. You can count the ceiling tiles of a room to get the dimensions. Ceiling tiles area ALWAYS either 2'x4' or 2'x2')
Anyway, that equates to a two ton (space) room. The exam table/bed was set in the corner at an angle, allowing the doctor access to each side. There was a set of base cabinets with a sink, wall cabinets, two more chairs, plus a medical cupboard attached to the wall. There was still plenty of room to move around. I think that a 2 ton sickbay is adequate for one person. You could squeeze in two exam tables/beds into a space this size, but they would have to be against one side of a wall, meaning doctors could only examine a patient from either the right or left side. Anyway, I just made a house rule for a "basic" sickbay. 2 tons per "bed". Recovery rooms could have two beds per 2 tons (similar to a stateroom) after any exam/operation is done.

Here are the descriptions of GURPS Starships medical facilities.

Emergency Aid Stations
EAS's are designed for use in small ships where a full sick bay is not needed or space is at a premium. TL7 includes 2 bunks and a stretcher. TL8 includes 2 bunks with emergency support units (ESU) and a stretcher. TL9-13 includes 1 automed, 1 diagnosis table, one ESU and 1 stretcher. All stations have a computer terminal and reactor slice to power it.

Sick Bays
Sick bays vary considerably by TL as medical sciences advance. TL7 each module consists of 2 beds, one operating table, and once stretcher. TL 8 is the same as TL 7 but also includes an ESU. TL 9-10 includes the same thing as TL8 but also includes 2 auto meds. TL 11+ includes 3 automeds.

There is a section for military sickbays, but that's too long for me to type right now.

The size chart has the following

EAS = 1/2 ton
SB = 1 ton to 1.5 tons

As you can see, the sizes listed in the back of the book, don't seem to jive with the actual content described in the descriptions.
In T20, it does not go into any detail of what is included, but simply states a sickbay can handle up to 2 patients. A T20 sickbay takes up 8 tons. That's 20' x 10' per person! That seems excessive. But that's just me.
Any thoughts?

 

[parmasson]

There may be some slop between “surgical facility” with trauma unit ala Firefly’s sickbay or the patch em’ up, fold out first aid station describe above. T 20 may be describing a surgical facility

 

[parmasson]

OR how many people can be served by an 8 ton sick bay? Does hull size seem to be connected to sick bay size?

 

[jhulse]

The 8 ton sick bay is right out of the T20 rulebook. It simply states that it can service up to 2 patients at once. I’ve had two knee surgeries, and that seems about the right size for an operating room.
Again, to me that seems a bit oversized for a simple sickbay. A surgical room seems more appropriate for an 8 ton room. That's 4 staterooms (considering each stateroom is only 2 tons, with the rest as "common" space. I think only a specialized ship, like a medical frigate, would have a fully functional surgical bay. General sick bays on merchant ship would have an auto-doc for major injuries.
Jak

 

[parmasson]

Does the T20 bay have any ELBs?

 

[far-trader]

Emergency Low Berths? In MTU each patient bed in the sickbay includes an ELB function. There's nothing official, but at the size and cost it seems reasonable.

 

[aramis]

Ok... since Dr Skull isn't answering, and he & I were the proponents of the sickbay...

The basic idea is it's not just an OR in the t20 sickbay.

It's a fully kitted out pair of diagnostic beds, with OR & ICU level support for up to 2 patients at a time. Essentially, it could support (depending upon shift schedules) up to 4 docs at a time, but really is intended to be one Doc's workspace.

Think of it like the B5 Medlabs...

It's only a space 6m x 6m... 20'x20' and probably includes a workstation for the doc, full isolation capability, full surgical and ICU equipment. (A typical modern ICU bed is in a 3x4m room, and the smallest OR I've seen is 4x3m or so... 12x10 feet at an Army Guard infirmary.)

Keep in mind also that it includes the X-Ray, MRI/FMRI, CAT and Sonographic equipment, and the autoclave, plus at appropriate TL's, NAS.

The ELB function wasn't a consideration.

 

[far-trader]

Sounds about like what I had figured Aramis. All I added was the ELB function as noted and a secure locker for meds. The isolation factor in my plans includes a small airlock and suits of course.

 

[Pickles]

Aren't emergency low berths intended for lifeboat use and such? IIRC they mass 1 dton compared to half a dton for a standard LB, but they take 4 sleepers instead of just one. I don't think they're intended for medical use.

I often have standard low berths in my sick bays, normally used as diagnostic beds as in Far-Trader's post. All PC ships I've ever played on or refereed had them, too - players have a tendency to rapidly exceed the abilities of the ship's medic ...

 

[far-trader]

Ah, my bad use of the term there. They are ELB in the sense that they are quick "freeze" to stop death in it's tracks, and single occupant only of course.

The standard ELB are indeed as you note Bromgrev. I think there's some old source reference to them acutally being (adapted) large livestock cold transports.

 

[aramis]

I wouldn't include any ELB function at all; one major reason, too...

None of the stuff intended is included on a standard design plot. The ELB's are.

 

[Liam Devlin]

IMTU aboard the player's relic / refurbished to armed trader-former navy warship, they have an enlarged med bay (12dtons):

Replaced the two beds with TNE-TL-B automeds in original 8dt section. Still requires T/Med technician or Dr to use.

Added a recovered TL-D Autodoc (from player's previous starship) in the extended section with 1x single tube TL-A LB.

This still left room for the other stuff Aramis listed above. Of 10x players, two have Surgery feat, both are Imperial remnants--one is a ex-Navy surgeon, the other a civilian Dentist.

This isn't standard aboard our Wilds side campaign ships. Most Free traders out & about have converted a stateroom or two to meet the needs of having a place to patch up their crews after a scrape with the locals dirtside or hazards of the era aboard ship.

Technically they can freeze one for later surgery/ have the autodoc working another one/ and be assisted by the two automeds on two others. The players tend to use a 4-man away team scheme off the big ship, so this was their bit of planning when we swapped vessels (the ex-IISS station they landed at "reactivated" the "detached-duty" smaller vessel, cheaper for them to run, and "sold" this larger, harder to operate relic to the players..).


(I don't call them sick bays--bad for morale, and the players who do the campaigns doctors think it a negative moniker.)

 

[jhulse]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Ok... since Dr Skull isn't answering, and he & I were the proponents of the sickbay...

The basic idea is it's not just an OR in the t20 sickbay.

It's a fully kitted out pair of diagnostic beds, with OR & ICU level support for up to 2 patients at a time. Essentially, it could support (depending upon shift schedules) up to 4 docs at a time, but really is intended to be one Doc's workspace.

Think of it like the B5 Medlabs...

It's only a space 6m x 6m... 20'x20' and probably includes a workstation for the doc, full isolation capability, full surgical and ICU equipment. (A typical modern ICU bed is in a 3x4m room, and the smallest OR I've seen is 4x3m or so... 12x10 feet at an Army Guard infirmary.)

Keep in mind also that it includes the X-Ray, MRI/FMRI, CAT and Sonographic equipment, and the autoclave, plus at appropriate TL's, NAS.

The ELB function wasn't a consideration.

This sounds like a reasonable explanation of why a sickbay is so large in T20. But would a smallish merchant ship, 1000 tons or smaller, have something that complex? In the GURPS rule book, it attempts to give a range in size and functions. Do today’s large mega cruise ships, holding thousands of passengers, even have medical facilities this complex? Not to mention the average liner in Traveller carries less the 50 passengers. In today’s world, someone suffering from life threatening injuries on a modern cruise ship could be air-lifted to the closest hospital. In Traveller, and ELB would do the trick.
So for smaller ships, where non revenue generating spaces can cripple financial success, a smaller sick bay should be able to take up 2 tons. I would simply have an examination table, locker for basic medical tools and supplies for minor injuries and minor surgeries, but nothing as complex as MRI stations etc...
But then again, I can't imagine how compact systems like that would be in the future. Perhaps someday an examination table could have all those functions in one compact "box". Traveller is set thousands of years from now after all. Just look where medical technology has gone in only 50 years! But that could be a whole new thread in itself.
Anyway, I like the idea of emergency aid stations and smaller exam rooms for smaller ships. Going directly from “nothing” to a full service 8 ton room seems a bit too abrupt IMO.
Got to go, Friday night happy hour is calling. Cheers all!
Jak

 

[aramis]

Smaller ships don't HAVE sickbays. The doc goes to quarters, or holds sick call in the mess.

 

[Lochlaber]

Most modern passenger ships have the facilities to do everything short of a heart transplant. Passengers dying because of the lack of a place to operate is bad publicity, especially when you consider that the age of many passengers is 60+. IIRC, these ships look more like a small medical clinic, with several exam rooms, patient's rooms and a operating theatre, complete with a pharmacy (both for those coming ill and those who forget/lose their meds.) Most ships have 1-3 doctors (depending upon size), along with support staff. While helicopters are nice, somebody suffering a heart attack needs immediate, specialised medical treatment to last the flight time to and from the ship in question.

Even modern freighters have a sickbay more in the line of Serenity, although they don't usually have a on duty doctor. Good way to make sure that you keep a berth is emt training as well as your own speciality.

 

[aramis]

Most modern passenger ships are floating resorts, not working carriers; a subtle distinction from the outside, but it drastically shapes their mission role and equipment, as well as being on entirely different economies than the average Traveller vessel.

The average tramp freighter currently lacks a sickbay, and carries passengers only as a triviality; they often have excess cabins.

 

[marvo]

IMTU the players ship has a T20 sized area, but I designated it is a combined Med Bay and Lab. There's one bed that can be partitioned behind a curtain, and a lot of scientifc equipment.

FYI the ship is a 500 tone exploratory merchant.

 

[kafka47]

Have to agree with the majority of posters. Complete sick bays are too expensive for the average tramp trader. Anyone who has hitched a ride on one (not the commercial operations that run like tramp traders) knows that live ranges from hard to difficult especially those ones that fly many flags of convenience. Players ships might be better equipped, for as adventurers, they seek out the rough and tumble life.

But, as spice, one always likes to take a ship away from players and life can get pretty dingy, if one is just shopping for the best fare. As anyone who has flown a discount airline a great distance compared with First Class on a Commercial carrier.

Med labs would also depend upon the proficiency of Medical training of the Crew, anyone who has less than Medical-4 cannot call themselves a Surgeon. Although, I like to think some of the practices of Barefoot Medicine have survived until the 57th century.

 

[parmasson]

Perhaps there needs to be a rating system A-E and by tech level like hospital trauma rooms.
A TL-15/A sick bay is a top-notch hospital, displacing dozens of tons with total capabilities from triage to rehab.

A TL-10/E is just a first aid kit and an instruction booklet.

 

[jhulse]

The last few posts are perfect examples in the logic why GURPS Traveller introduced the idea of a first aid station. A T20 sick bay includes most everything. Going from "nothing" to "everything" is just kind of silly.
Crew cabins are cramped enough and the idea of turning a medic's personal sleeping quarters into an exam room is begging for illness.
I don't stick to cannon when I see obvious flaws in one particular rule system or the other.
This is just one minor case.

Everyone in this thread has really helped with this discussion. I started this thread to try and get a consensus of what is in a full sized, 8 ton sickbay per T20, and what a smaller tramp freighter could get by with, and not have to take up a full 8 tons of space. Everyone uses rules and systems from the LLB's, Mega Traveller, TNE, etc... GURPS Traveller makes an attempt to fill this gap, where as T20 or any other previous system over looks.
A 2 ton room is plenty large enough to examine, treat, and even bed sick passengers (or injured adventurers) with non-life threatening conditions.
Jak