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Size of med bay and missle storage

Matt123

SOC-14 1K
Just looking for help for a (ideally) canon source for the size and cost of these two ship items. Adding these and similar 'payloads' to my ship app is fairly easy, I'm just lacking the time at present to research the details.

Missile storage is covered in CT 1979 book 5 (which I don't have a copy of). Medical bays/surgeries may be in MT on. Anything up to and including T5 references is fine. It's better than my WAG...

Specifically I am after the tonnage and cost of each, plus the book and page number it is on.
 
Just looking for help for a (ideally) canon source for the size and cost of these two ship items. Adding these and similar 'payloads' to my ship app is fairly easy, I'm just lacking the time at present to research the details.

Missile storage is covered in CT 1979 book 5 (which I don't have a copy of). Medical bays/surgeries may be in MT on. Anything up to and including T5 references is fine. It's better than my WAG...

Specifically I am after the tonnage and cost of each, plus the book and page number it is on.

GT: Starships has a great number of interesting modules for your ships, if you don't mind the GURPS Traveller versions:

GT:S65 - Sickbay 1 dton, MCr0.2, Holds two auto-meds/diagnostic tables.
GT:S65 - Military SickBay 3 dtons, MCr0.25, Has two auto-meds, plus a surgery table with surgery equipment.

GT:S61 - Anti-blast magazine. Specified in 1 Dton, Mcr 0.125 increments. The problem with how many missiles depends upon the version. GT Missiles are 6cf, so about 80 to a dton.
 
Just looking for help for a (ideally) canon source for the size and cost of these two ship items. Adding these and similar 'payloads' to my ship app is fairly easy, I'm just lacking the time at present to research the details.
...
Specifically I am after the tonnage and cost of each, plus the book and page number it is on.

I'm pretty sure that it's intended that the space taken up by staterooms includes all common areas, kitchen facilities, medical facilities and other such items. It's not separated out from general crew accommodations in any classic traveller material that I'm aware of. I can't vouch for this on TNE, T4 or T5 as I haven't gone into those systems in detail.
 
I'm pretty sure that it's intended that the space taken up by staterooms includes all common areas, kitchen facilities, medical facilities and other such items. It's not separated out from general crew accommodations in any classic traveller material that I'm aware of. I can't vouch for this on TNE, T4 or T5 as I haven't gone into those systems in detail.

Not in TNE/T4, either.

T4 does have the extended Life Support options.

In CT, T20, MGT1 and MGT2, life support is part of stateroom tonnage.
In MT, TNE, T4 - life support is separate from stateroom tonnage, and probably includes the kitchen.
 
I'm pretty sure that it's intended that the space taken up by staterooms includes all common areas, kitchen facilities, medical facilities and other such items. It's not separated out from general crew accommodations in any classic traveller material that I'm aware of. I can't vouch for this on TNE, T4 or T5 as I haven't gone into those systems in detail.

You are correct and strictly speaking missile storage was removed from CT High Guard in 1981. But if ship designers want such things to fit their own vision, that's all good too.

Ta tjoneslo for the GT stats, much appreciated.

Anyone got a copy of HG1 for the missile storage stats?
 
Special Supplement 3 (JTAS #21, for CT) says
SS# pg 7 said:
Each standard missile rack can hold one missile ready to fire and two additional missiles ready for future game turns.
.....
The standard turret has room to store an additional 12 missiles in it. Once these missiles have been used, the turret must be restocked with missiles carried elsewhere (usually in the cargo hold).

This gives a total of 21 standard-sized missiles in a standard-sized triple turret with 3 missile launchers (racks). That is 7 combat turns of fire.

SS3 also describes standard missiles as being "one meter long and 15 centimeters in diameter" and "50 kg each" (on page 2), which gives about 650-700 missiles in one ton of cargo volume if they are loaded in the cargo hold without any packaging or restraints (11/12 x 20 x 3 in a 1.5m x 3m x 3m cube). Standard cargo hold rules apply, but hard maneuvering and/or shock from combat damage may well damage the missiles (or set them off?)! Missiles stored in this way are assumed to be hand-carried (@50kg each, so needing 2 people) through passageways and hatches to the turret, with all that that implies for safety and time. If the missiles are in a protective container, and are just stacked in an empty cargo hold, then the number drops to about 450 or so (~10 x 18 x 2 + 3 x 18 x 2 + 3 x 3 x 2)

Assuming each missile is in a protective container, and that each missile is individually restrained in a rack (as in a proper ordnance magazine), the number drops to more like 100-200 per ton of magazine (5 x 10 x 2 or 7 x 14 x 2). There is nothing in any official material I know of that sets the cost of the racks/armor/fire-suppression equipment in a magazine (which would normally be found in military ships), nor of any special equipment needed to transfer the missiles from the magazine to the turret, which I would assume would be provided to eliminate the slow & dangerous "hand-carry" transfers normal in merchant vessels.
 
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Here is a non-canon (from the Paranoia Press Merchants and Merchandise book) "autodoc", which takes up the floor space (supplies may be stored above most of the occupied space) of a room of about 2 dtons, thus requiring a room of 2.5-3dtons (to provide room to move the patient in/out of the 'doc) at a minimum. If there are to be other facilities for lower-tech treatment (an exam table, etc) then a 4-5 dton room should be provided.

 
As noted in SS3 the standard Traveller missile is 15cm, which corresponds to the Striker conversion to CPR rounds (but does not work with the armor to damage to warhead kg stats, which I am still working through).

The Striker conversion notes that the missile bay missiles are 25cm in warhead size, and are 25 to a 50 ton bay and 50 to a 100 ton bay.
 
Striker 15 cm are the standard missiles, aye... but...
Don't forget that the standard missile should be a KEAP - and that the kinetic energy should be stepped up in space combat due to the missile's accumulated vector - whcih can be considerably higher due to long running time and lack of friction..

In other words - the KEAP stats are the minimum, used when firing at things within a few km, not the thousands of km a space combat entails.
 
Striker 15 cm are the standard missiles, aye... but...
Don't forget that the standard missile should be a KEAP - and that the kinetic energy should be stepped up in space combat due to the missile's accumulated vector - whcih can be considerably higher due to long running time and lack of friction..

In other words - the KEAP stats are the minimum, used when firing at things within a few km, not the thousands of km a space combat entails.

Yes, that's true and you could adjust for that although my point is that I don't think someone sat down and ran through the numbers, which looks to me more like an oversight given the care that obviously went into the fusion power plants and lasers to match CT ranges and HG ship builds.

But even an adjusted HG missile penetration is not like a multi-hit from a CT/SS3 missile, and the SS3 missiles make the distinction of kinetic impact effect only occurring with contact missiles per multiples of .01c, most damage at slower speeds is strictly warhead.

The engineering rules for demolitions are closer to mimicking the sort of damage those little warheads do in CT.
 
(blink) ... uh, there are rules for that? if the rule is not "there is now a hole in one side of your ship clear through to the other side, regardless of anything that was in the way", I would not take the rule seriously ....

fun with rpg's ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J-uKNb6TaI

1940s battleships have deflected a lot more then that with just plain old hardened steel, by Striker values our starships are equal to or better then that.

You are postulating 20,000+ feet per second, divide that by 8 to 10 for battleship shell speed, but on the other hand battleship shells had a lot more weight.

Let's compare.

http://www.csgnetwork.com/kineticenergycalc.html

16" AP Shell, 1225kg, 762 m/s.

Traveller Missile, 50 kg, 3218 m/s.

AP Shell, 355,644,450 joules.

Missile, 258,888,100 joules

Now mind you not a lot deflects Iowa class AP shells, but its not an automatic penetrate OR destroy.

http://www.navweaps.com/index_nathan/index_nathan.htm
http://www.navweaps.com/index_nathan/Penetration_United_States.htm
http://www.combinedfleet.com/metalprp2002.htm



I did a lot of this work using the Atomic Rockets boom chart and trying to figure out the exact joule count that the .01c rule 'reveals' equates to an LBB2 ship hit, so that's why I know this part.

But among other things I calculated with less kg because the assumption is a lot of that missile weight is burning off in the form of fuel, so pretty much the warhead, detonator, missile body and a smidgen of fuel would hit.


RPGs ironically ARE a form of kinetic weapon, the plasma jet is actually punching through due to charged particle kinetic force, not burning through. We can treat our plasma and fusion guns as a sort of 'super direct line of sight' Munroe effect of kinetic fire.

As you can see here, they can penetrate 600-750mm of hardened steel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-7#Specifications

Finally, glass ain't steel, or Chobham, or the postulated Traveller armor.

And I suspect that the results would have been different on the spaced shot with the glass angled.
 
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16" AP Shell, 1225kg, 762 m/s.

Traveller Missile, 50 kg, 3218 m/s.

AP Shell, 355,644,450 joules.

Missile, 258,888,100 joules

Now mind you not a lot deflects Iowa class AP shells, but its not an automatic penetrate OR destroy.

you may wish to include the objects and the targets themselves in your calculations. for example using the numbers you supply I get 1.7Mj / in^2 for the shell vs 19Mj / in^2 for the missile, which I'm casually guessing is an automatic penetrate even for 16 inches of case-hardened steel, and if traveller hulls are tough enough to resist THAT then battledress would be made out of something similar and be immune to any man-portable weapon even in traveller.

as for destroy, 'pends. hydrostatic shock in the fuel tank and piping will share the damage wealth far and wide. electrostatics may disrupt quite a few operating systems. penetrating the power plant, jump drive, or maneuver drive equipment seems likely to generate a shipyard repair/replacement requirement. and there may be some serious heat issues.

and, in truth, 2 miles/sec is a bit on the low end ....
 
you may wish to include the objects and the targets themselves in your calculations. for example using the numbers you supply I get 1.7Mj / in^2 for the shell vs 19Mj / in^2 for the missile, which I'm casually guessing is an automatic penetrate even for 16 inches of case-hardened steel, and if traveller hulls are tough enough to resist THAT then battledress would be made out of something similar and be immune to any man-portable weapon even in traveller.

Oh HELL, I'm treating acceleration as the equivalent of muzzle velocity, not the right comparison, impact velocity.

Ok, I went back and reread the SS3 rule, which states that for every 300mm of accumulated vector between the missile and target, an impact will generate an extra hit.

100mm is the distance of a 1 G vector, 10,000 km in 1000 seconds, or put another way a vector of 10 km/s that you got to with 10 m/s during 1000 seconds of accel.

So if there were a head on impact between a missile going at 9 G and a target at 3 G, that's 12 G cumulative or 4 more hits over and above whatever the warhead would do (assuming it goes off, detonators can be messed with). I presume that is what is handling the 1-6 random result of the 'simple' LBB2 missile hit resolution.

So that's something like 22 kg at 30 km/s for what a starship hull can take.

Misremembered/misrepresented the C, it would be more like .0001c per hit.

Hopefully that settles any confusion I have engendered, and where I went wrong to make that assertion.

I do stand by the comparison at the postulated speeds, 50kg is darn light at a mere 2 miles per second and IS comparable to a 'mere' battleship shell.

The missile impact rules are part of why I want to get beyond the HG type simplifications and get into hard tactics.

Among other things, a 30G 5x6 missile will do 10 extra hits at near end of run against a 0 G target, stern chase ships could be in grave peril while their return shots do less damage.

Giving players 'cold equations' can give them a spacier experience, and maybe encounters play out differently then one would 'expect' the way most Traveller is played.


__________________________________________________________




If we were to get ridiculously RL realistic, part of the equation has to include metallurgy of weapon and target, and the dynamics of how a shell strike itself both starts a little bit of plasma/pyrophoric effects at higher ends AND the structure of the metal impact, possibly harmonics.

All of which most current best understandings of are basically national secrets seeing as how they effect modern weapons design and multidecade 'bets' on weapon system/defense mixes that will affect international destinies, so not worth it likely to go all out, we are unlikely to 'get it completely right', but we can get within reason.

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Now the reason I made the distinctions I did in my response is that converting this to Striker/HG makes for stranger results.

Striker tells us that the unarmored ships are at armor factor 40, equivalent to 13" of hard steel (typical of the second tier of battleships), and armored warships are on another level- HG armor 10 would work out to Striker armor 80 or 425" of steel. Of course our ships are made of hightech materials so they take much less volume for the same effect.

With an oblique hit, a kinetic impact might be treated as 80 for an unarmored ship and say 160 for an HG armor 10 ship, yielding an armor rating off the chart (highest it goes is striker value 120 for 13,543 inches of steel).

Battledress is rated at Striker armor 10, and armor 18 at TL14, which is equivalent to 1" and 2" of steel respectively. Puts a lot of the lighter stuff out of the range of hurting you, but doesn't help against RAM GL much less plasma/fusion guns.

I'm thinking there needs to be a class of suit that's more man-sized mecha as light tank/aerial recon-control/assault that would have the sort of armor level you are expecting. I'm working out the details.

Anyway, things get wonky because the way the rules work most of the ship missiles aren't going to do much to a ship, the KEAP (kinetic AP) rules are set for terrestrial hypervelocity not starship speeds and the warhead affects only approximate LBB2/SS3 if you somehow wedge in the demolition packages.

as for destroy, 'pends. hydrostatic shock in the fuel tank and piping will share the damage wealth far and wide. electrostatics may disrupt quite a few operating systems. penetrating the power plant, jump drive, or maneuver drive equipment seems likely to generate a shipyard repair/replacement requirement. and there may be some serious heat issues.
Studying actual naval battle results as opposed to theory leads one to rather a different conclusion. It's not so much blowing the fuel tanks, a hole in the engines as it is an accumulation of leaks, secondary system breakdowns that all add up to a slowdown or mission kill, or rendering the offense capacity to fire or defense to maneuver that leads to destruction, such as loss of turrets and fire control and steering/speed for Bismarck (along with the occasional spectacular catastrophe such as Hood).

During the battle of Taffy 3, Japanese battleships and cruisers closed and hit the CVEs several times, but had run out of the optimal HE rounds during earlier air battles and were firing AP shells, said shots went straight through the carriers and out the other side without appreciable effective damage that otherwise would have destroyed them.

I have that result VERY much in mind with my pass-through rules (you can read up where I am at in The Fleet post with the damage and drama thread).

So, maybe, maybe not.

The naval game Seekrieg does a very good job in this arena.

http://www.seekrieg.com/
 
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Yes, that's true and you could adjust for that although my point is that I don't think someone sat down and ran through the numbers, which looks to me more like an oversight given the care that obviously went into the fusion power plants and lasers to match CT ranges and HG ship builds.

But even an adjusted HG missile penetration is not like a multi-hit from a CT/SS3 missile, and the SS3 missiles make the distinction of kinetic impact effect only occurring with contact missiles per multiples of .01c, most damage at slower speeds is strictly warhead.

The engineering rules for demolitions are closer to mimicking the sort of damage those little warheads do in CT.
The striker use for them is intended to be solely as on-the-field artillery, NOT as space combat.
 
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