Skills end up so high!!

[djpapasmurf]

I just played under the T20 rules for the first time this past weekend. We mostly went through introductions, investigation and research without any combat, so I didn't have to deal with that yet.

But one thing I found difficult wasthe high levels of characters skills. It is amazing how high the ranks could get, I had someone get a 37 on a role (rolled a 20 and had +17 to Gather Info) ... YIKES!!!! ... the high number of skill points and myriad synergy bonuses seem to lead to excessively high skill abilities that, according to the rules, makes characters experts at almost everything.

Plus, once you add the many feats that give you ANYTHING at a base for the T/any K/any C/any P/any with the attribute base of the skill made the entire party an uber-skilled machine, with pretty much every skill in the book. Basically between 6 people, they could have every skill in the entire book at at least +10.

This means that on an average roll of 10 (or take 10) .. a standard starting party is a genius level expert on every skill in the universe practically (with the joat etc. feats in addition) and are super-genius level (+15 and greater) on at least another 10 skills across the characters.

When running I found it difficult to deal with this. I think we only had maybe 2 or 3 results out of maybe 100 that were below 20.

Any suggestions on how others have seen this working and is this common? How have others thought to deal with such high level skill results. Perhaps I am just looking at the results compared to the original D20 and the D&D game, where a +5 is GREAT and a +10 is GENIUS and each character is lucky if they have 1 or 2 skills better than +10.

Any thoughts?

SuperStar DJ Papa Smurf

 

[Smiling DM]

Originally posted by djpapasmurf:
I just played under the T20 rules for the first time this past weekend. We mostly went through introductions, investigation and research without any combat, so I didn't have to deal with that yet.

But one thing I found difficult wasthe high levels of characters skills.

(snip)

Any suggestions on how others have seen this working and is this common? How have others thought to deal with such high level skill results. Perhaps I am just looking at the results compared to the original D20 and the D&D game, where a +5 is GREAT and a +10 is GENIUS and each character is lucky if they have 1 or 2 skills better than +10.

Any thoughts?

SuperStar DJ Papa Smurf

In my game I have seen a couple of players with very high skills- they tend to be Merchants (who get gobs of skill points). I believe that these high skill levels are normal for T20. Remember that a normal DC for an average action is 15. A difficult action is 20, and so on - IRIC, an impossible target number is 35 or 40 - even the roll on info gathering you reference wouldn't necessarily qualify here.

Don't be afraid to pile on those negative situation modifiers that add penalties to the task. Yes, it may be simple to bypass a primitive security system for an average level Rogue, but doing so under fire with inadequate lighting is something completely different.

Plus, these higher skill levels get balanced out in view of Combat - if you have gobs of skill points, odds are that the Combat skills are low. And combat is VERY lethal in T20 (which I LIKE!).

I also run a lot of D20 fantasy, and yes, the skill levels in T20 do seem to be much higher than in my fantasy game - but then we are talking about two very different genre's - in fantasy, the valued skills are combat oriented. Compare the Base Attack Bonuses of your T20 PC's against those of an average dungeon-crawling party of the same level - the T20 guys with tons of skills will look as bad or worse than a D20 Wizard in terms of BAB. Wheras the T20 military classes (Mercenary, Navy, Marine, Army, etc.) will look more like the D20 PC's - and guess what - they don't have anywhere near the skill points.

I too had a nasty shock when I started T20 with the high skill rolls. One of the players created a computer hacker - at the time all we had was the T20 Lite rules, so he was the Merchant class. He put an 18 on Int, and then got a bonus to Intelligence as a Mustering benefit, ending character creation with an Int 20. As such, tons o' skill points. After Pre-history, came out at 7th level. His base computer skill is 19, and goes to a 21 if he is working with anti-hijacking software. All legitimate by the rules.

Of course, in a gun fight, he has a BAB of +3. Lets just say he ducks a lot and lets the ex-Marines with the group take care of the baddies.

In the end, I think it balanced out (at least in my game). I don't mind my PC's being a cut above average - my games tend for that extra bit of epic (not quite Star Wars, but certainly the PC's will have a chance to become involved in MAJOR events).

Good Luck.

 

[Bruce]

Just some thoughts on the HIGH skill ranks that you are seeing.

I think that this can be mitigated ify ou use the point buy systems for stats. Don't let your players ROLL those super high stats with the big +4 bonus to die rolls. Yes, it seems cheap, but it will cut back on some of the bonus to skill rolls. This will also make players specialize more, which will, hopefully mean that they'd concentrate their skill points in a narrow manner and thus not have SO many skills with lots of ranks if they want to be a generalist.

You would be amazed at how buying skills changes when you don't have those +4 and +3 bumps to ALL skills affected by a specific stat.

My merchant in my game does have HIGH skill rolls, and it seems that it's impossible to mitigate that.
But there are always forces int eh Universe that can help keep them in check.

So, when I do start another T20 game, I'm going to use point buy, instead of rolling.

Bruce
The Man Behind the Curtain

 

[RabidVargr]

Also, their skills may be high, but what about the skill of the programmer who *WROTE* that anti-hijack program they're trying to break into? Maybe the program's not an off the shelf brand.

Remember, if your PC's are good, the baddies are great! Evil shall always triumph....

RV

 

[Commonman]

Also wot level are your players at? The prior history tends to get those skills way up there.
Wot you should do do is check which skills they have at a lower level and throw them into a situation that reqiures those skills. Dont forget the great equalizer, combat. When the bullets start flying it doesn't matter wot your reasearch or pilot skill is

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by djpapasmurf:
...one thing I found difficult wasthe high levels of characters skills. It is amazing how high the ranks could get, I had someone get a 37 on a role (rolled a 20 and had +17 to Gather Info) ... YIKES!!!! ... the high number of skill points and myriad synergy bonuses seem to lead to excessively high skill abilities

I thought you weren't allowed to use more than one of each type of bonus? Thus you can only use one synergy bonus. does that help?

Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Smiling DM:

One of the players created a computer hacker - at the time all we had was the T20 Lite rules, so he was the Merchant class. He put an 18 on Int, and then got a bonus to Intelligence as a Mustering benefit, ending character creation with an Int 20. As such, tons o' skill points. After Pre-history, came out at 7th level. His base computer skill is 19, and goes to a 21 if he is working with anti-hijacking software.

As a 7th level character he can have a skill of 10. He gets a +5 bonus for his Int. Where does he get the last 4 points?

Hans

 

[Ellros]

Carousing feat gives a +2 bonus to Gather Info, among other similar feats.

Skill 10 + Int bonus 5 + Carousing 2 = 17

20 + 17 = 37

There are feats and will probably be equipment that give bonuses. At the level characters are starting out at, a 37 is not uncommon, especially if it is a natural 20 roll, in a skill the character is good at, and using the character's high stats. There's a Rogue in my party who can manage that high a roll with his Spot skill (he's at a base +18 right now.

 

[manley_t]

You guys are missing a rule from D&D 3E PHB -- that is that no class skill can be higher than your level and no cross class skill can be higher than 1/2 your level.

I don't know if this was assumed in the T20 rules or not; or just ignored. I think we need input from a Canon source here.

 

[Doug]

From the Player's Handbook I seem to recall that no class skill can be higher than level+3, and that the maximum level for cross-class skills is half that.

Doug.

 

[djpapasmurf]

I thought you weren't allowed to use more than one of each type of bonus? Thus you can only use one synergy bonus. does that help?

Is this true? I haven't seen anything in the rules to suggest you can only get one of each type of bonuses (i.e. synergy). In fact, for Diplomacy (in the D&D/D20 Players handbook) it specifically mentions that you get +2 synergy bonuses from either Bluff or Sense Motive of +5 and "these bonuses stack".

In T20, the Laison skill (which is basically Diplomacy) has almost the exact same language, except that it removes the "bonuses can stack" comment. I also have Spycraft, which has diplomacy and does not mention that you can or cannot stack.

SO - is this something that T20 just left out? Is there anywhere within the T20 book thats specifically says whether you can stack or not?

Any thoughts?

SuperStar DJ Papa Smurf

 

[djpapasmurf]

Just confirmed, from the PHB ... Max skill ranks are level +3 for class skills. Cross Class skills are half that of class skills. Thus

Level 7 character has +10 max ranks for class and +5 ranks for non-class.

The only caveat is when you are multi-classing, if you have a class-EXCLUSIVE skill (only available to that class alone), then the bonus is based just on the level achieved through that class otherwise if it was EVER a class skill then the max ranks are based on total levels, thus

Level 3 Traveller, Level 4 Rogue

Max of +6 ranks for Use Alien Device (a traveller exclusive skill not available to rogues thus +3 for lvl 3 traveller plus +3 bonus)

Max of +10 ranks for Bribery (a traveller and rogue class skill .. level +7, +3 bonus)

Max of +10 ranks for Hide (a rogue class and traveller cross-class)

Max of +5 ranks for Broker (both rogue and traveller cross-class .. level +7, +3 bonus = 10 divided by 2 for cross class = 5).

Hope that helps,

SuperStar DJ Papa Smurf

 

[The One Warlock]

And don't forget how bonuses generally work...
The only bonuses that always stack are as follows:
Synergy bonuses,
Dodge Bonuses,
Unnamed Bonuses (For instance a feat which grants a "+1 bonus"),
And Circumstance Bonuses from different circumstances at the DM's discretion.

Also, keep the tables for the various skills they are using available as they provide a series of situational modifiers to the DC which you as the Ref can stack depending on the conditions around them and the speed with which they want to try and complete the task. Also, if you are starting around 9th level, remember that in most D20 systems characters at that level are grizzled veterans who can take on difficult challenges with a very good chance of success, and that they are heroes well beyond the capability of common people. Even though most people aren't playing low level, most of the basic skill check DCs from the D20 system are designed so that an average non-heroic individual can succeed at basic actions (ie a 1st or 2nd level character can climb rope, tie basic but sturdy knots, etc). At 7th to 10th level, those characters are going to walk through "basic" challenges, and can often take 10 in the right situation and still succeed. At that point, it's the major antagonist's efforts to stymie them that is going to give their skill checks a run for their money.

 

[Smiling DM]

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Smiling DM:

One of the players created a computer hacker - at the time all we had was the T20 Lite rules, so he was the Merchant class. He put an 18 on Int, and then got a bonus to Intelligence as a Mustering benefit, ending character creation with an Int 20. As such, tons o' skill points. After Pre-history, came out at 7th level. His base computer skill is 19, and goes to a 21 if he is working with anti-hijacking software.

As a 7th level character he can have a skill of 10. He gets a +5 bonus for his Int. Where does he get the last 4 points?

Hans</font>

Two seperate feats - one is skill focus (+2), and the other . . . escapes me at the moment (I'm at work), but adds an additional +2.

 

[Smiling DM]

Originally posted by Big Tim:
You guys are missing a rule from D&D 3E PHB -- that is that no class skill can be higher than your level and no cross class skill can be higher than 1/2 your level.

Key word that your missing is "ranks" - the total skill bonus can be much higher depending on the stat and feat bonuses available.

 

[Smiling DM]

Originally posted by Bruce:
Just some thoughts on the HIGH skill ranks that you are seeing.

I think that this can be mitigated ify ou use the point buy systems for stats. Don't let your players ROLL those super high stats with the big +4 bonus to die rolls.

Bruce The Man Behind the Curtain

Yeah, well I tend to be generoues to my players, and as a result they all have well above average stats. I do believe that the next campaign will either be a more limiting die roll method or the Point-Buy method. I agree that the above average stats are contributing to the problem.

Course, I am not having an issue challeneging the group - they are AFRAID of combat (even the ex-Marines). Just hint at a gun-fight and they get nervous.

heh heh heh.

 

[Bruce]

I think combat is a great equilizer in T20.
One of my players, the rich noble who just happens to have the best BAB in the group, got his vac suit torn in a scuffle with a beastie...well he was SHOCKED when we startedt o use the rules for what happens. Heh...they are very cautious now.

Bruce
The Man Behind the Curtain

 

[Flynn]

A possible solution for you is to use the difficulty levels and DCs from the table on page 13 of the T20 Lite pdf, or its equivalent in the THB. Those DCs tend to be pretty high, but it separates the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.

Hope this helps,
Flynn

 

[MichaelL65]

Originally posted by Smiling DM:
Course, I am not having an issue challeneging the group - they are AFRAID of combat (even the ex-Marines). Just hint at a gun-fight and they get nervous.

heh heh heh.

Well, starting off the adventure by putting the "battle map" on the table doesn't help either...

 

[djpapasmurf]

Yes, I can't wait to see these guys face someone in combat. They all think they are top notch, but the noble/navy-man is not going to enjoy the fire-fights. Let's see where those +15,+16,+17 skills for liason and gather info with all those connections and joat feats are going to help them against a pair of gauss rifles.

Then again, I was looking further at the D&D DMG and PHB a bit and I think the DC's are in some cases scaled to the levels. I think the D20 guideline for Varying Degrees of Success is more important in a game like T20. This stresses that +10 over dc is a greater success and +20 is perfect ... I think this kind of rule needs to be used more in addition to the dc modifiers. This means that a +15 dc would need a 35 for a perfect success, difficult even for these guys.

But all in all, I say bring on the big iron and scare them all right out of thier britches.

Ciao - SuperStar DJ Papa Smurf