Skills end up so high!!

[djpapasmurf]

Yes, I can't wait to see these guys face someone in combat. They all think they are top notch, but the noble/navy-man is not going to enjoy the fire-fights. Let's see where those +15,+16,+17 skills for liason and gather info with all those connections and joat feats are going to help them against a pair of gauss rifles.

Then again, I was looking further at the D&D DMG and PHB a bit and I think the DC's are in some cases scaled to the levels. I think the D20 guideline for Varying Degrees of Success is more important in a game like T20. This stresses that +10 over dc is a greater success and +20 is perfect ... I think this kind of rule needs to be used more in addition to the dc modifiers. This means that a +15 dc would need a 35 for a perfect success, difficult even for these guys.

But all in all, I say bring on the big iron and scare them all right out of thier britches.

Ciao - SuperStar DJ Papa Smurf

 

[djpapasmurf]

And the disk skips on DJ Papa ... woo hoo, it posted me twice .. they are watching me, beware the Bene Gesserit thier eyes never close!

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Ellros:
Carousing feat gives a +2 bonus to Gather Info, among other similar feats.

Skill 10 + Int bonus 5 + Carousing 2 = 17

20 + 17 = 37

Sure, if the situation is such that applying the bonus from Carousing makes sense. That is, in a congenial social situation. And how many of those are quiet enough for someone to take 10 or take 20?

Hans

 

[Shadowdancer]

Originally posted by Smiling DM:
Two seperate feats - one is skill focus (+2), and the other . . . escapes me at the moment (I'm at work), but adds an additional +2.

If he's a computer hacker, he probably has the hacker feat, which adds a +2 bonus.

 

[lightsenshi]

I can't say that I see this to be a problem as most of my current players have 3 term characters and tend to start between 5th and 7th level.

Like I think someone already said, a +15 doesn't help in the middle of a gunfight.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Paraquat Johnson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Smiling DM:
Two seperate feats - one is skill focus (+2), and the other . . . escapes me at the moment (I'm at work), but adds an additional +2.

If he's a computer hacker, he probably has the hacker feat, which adds a +2 bonus.</font>[/QUOTE]I cannot imagine a situation where I would allow a player to apply bonusses from Carousing and Hacker to the same roll .

Hans

(Steps back and waits for bizarre situation descriptions to flood the thread... )

 

[GypsyComet]

Originally posted by rancke:
I cannot imagine a situation where I would allow a player to apply bonusses from Carousing and Hacker to the same roll .

Hans

(Steps back and waits for bizarre situation descriptions to flood the thread... )

Hacking a particularly chatty A.I.?

On a more serious note, the answer to really high skill rolls has already been mentioned: Make more rolls "opposed" checks instead of fixed checks.

The other option, of course, is to assume the universe is a more difficult place to "adventure" in than the DCs in the book would indicate, and raise many of the DCs by a "few", either as fiat or by making certain the PCs always have reason to attempt things under difficult circumstances...

 

[Shadowdancer]

Originally posted by rancke:
I cannot imagine a situation where I would allow a player to apply bonusses from Carousing and Hacker to the same roll .

Hans

(Steps back and waits for bizarre situation descriptions to flood the thread... )

I, of course, was referring to Smiling DM's example of a hacker character, not djpapasmurf's example of a character good at gathering information.

However, for a bizarre situation, consider: The hacker character is socializing in a hacker bar located in virtual reality.

 

[Ran Malia]

I have always thought that using combat as a way to even things out is kind of a cheap excuse for game play. As Travellers, they are not suppose to be run of the mill characters. Anyhow, there are several challenges that one can put in front of the characters besides "Oh I know they don't have good combat skills, so I will send some meanies after them." As someone already mentioned almost all of the skill entries have some typical DC and modifiers, which easily raise the DC into the 25-30 range. Also someone already mentioned that unlike D&D or Spycraft general opponents (like guards, techs, etc...)who are 0-level or 1rst. These can be any combination of levels and the difficulty increases when the DC is based off of the opponents rank. So the PCs are trying to break into building X which as a security tech 3-5 level professional, a couple of assistants 2-3 level professionals, and a contingent of security officer, leveling from 1 (new guy) to 4-7 ex-marine drill sargeant. That creates a situation that will challenge any group. Maybe the security tech wrote the program or modified it over a couple of year, give him the bonus for that plus assistance and you can easily have a security system that has a DC of 35. I don't know it is just that there are so many better ways to challenge the PC, rather than whipping out the gun.

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by Smiling DM:
Yeah, well I tend to be generoues to my players, and as a result they all have well above average stats. I do believe that the next campaign will either be a more limiting die roll method or the Point-Buy method. I agree that the above average stats are contributing to the problem.

Giving people high stats is a problem. They should really have to sacrifice something to get a d20 character with an 18 stat ... remember that they get a bonus for a mere 12 in the new rules.

That goes for D&D as much as any d20 game. Since we found the point buy rules in the DMG my gaming group has stuck to that for every game, and found the results more than reasonable.

After all a character with 20 INT is a super-genius ... whatever he happens to turn his mind to he will excel at. The trick is to encourage the player to roleplay having a character with such high INT. Are they bored by dumb people? Do they dumb themselves down to not turn the opposite sex off? Do they use vocabulary that leaves everyone else wondering what they're up to? Do they talk about themselves all the time? Having other, less miraculous stats helps adds some of the colour, but encourage the player to play the PC as more than just numbers on a page.

 

[Smiling DM]

Originally posted by Falkayn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Smiling DM:
Yeah, well I tend to be generoues to my players, and as a result they all have well above average stats. I do believe that the next campaign will either be a more limiting die roll method or the Point-Buy method. I agree that the above average stats are contributing to the problem.

Giving people high stats is a problem. They should really have to sacrifice something to get a d20 character with an 18 stat ... remember that they get a bonus for a mere 12 in the new rules.

That goes for D&D as much as any d20 game. Since we found the point buy rules in the DMG my gaming group has stuck to that for every game, and found the results more than reasonable.

After all a character with 20 INT is a super-genius ... whatever he happens to turn his mind to he will excel at. The trick is to encourage the player to roleplay having a character with such high INT. Are they bored by dumb people? Do they dumb themselves down to not turn the opposite sex off? Do they use vocabulary that leaves everyone else wondering what they're up to? Do they talk about themselves all the time? Having other, less miraculous stats helps adds some of the colour, but encourage the player to play the PC as more than just numbers on a page.</font>[/QUOTE]Roleplaying in my group isn't the challenge - no one ever just runs the numbers - its not uncommon for an entire session to go by without anyone rolling a die.

The reason I have allowed higher stats (and again, I give them nothing but the dice to roll - no guarantee beyond statistics that they will be high) is for those LARGER than LIFE characters. Lets face it - why play someone normal - I get to do that in RL.

I don't mind that one of my characters has a Computer skill of 19 - its his concept - he is supposed to be a computer expert. The rest of his skills tend to be around 10-15. Yes, this means that in general tasks, where he has plenty of time, he will succeed. But most of the professionals I work with in RL would rate similarly. The real challenge is doing it with limited resources (time, environmental conditions, tools, lack of gun-fire overhead, etc.) - and that is where this highly experienced (he's 7th level) character can still do well. Again, I think this is in concept.

In general my storylines tend toward the epic. When I am running say a "street" level game, I plan to use the point buy system.

At the end of the day, it really boils down to what kind of game the GM wants to run. Fortunately, T20 is flexible enough to handle this. If you are looking for a scrappy game where the PC's have to worry about their next meal and getting through their normal routine, then go with the point buy method and limit the terms of service. If you want epic, heroic feats in unusual circumstances, then go with a favroable die-roll method (or heck, just up the attribute points available for point-buy) and allow as many as 5 terms in pre-history. Many folks interested in a nobles campaign simly grant the PC's titles at no cost just so they can run a high level political intrigue campaign.

There is no right or wrong - the key is understanding the sensitivity of the game mechanics to changes such as higher than average stats - in this case - its that "skills end up so high".

 

[lightsenshi]

Originally posted by Smiling DM:
Roleplaying in my group isn't the challenge - no one ever just runs the numbers - its not uncommon for an entire session to go by without anyone rolling a die.

The reason I have allowed higher stats (and again, I give them nothing but the dice to roll - no guarantee beyond statistics that they will be high) is for those LARGER than LIFE characters. Lets face it - why play someone normal - I get to do that in RL.

I don't mind that one of my characters has a Computer skill of 19 - its his concept - he is supposed to be a computer expert. The rest of his skills tend to be around 10-15. Yes, this means that in general tasks, where he has plenty of time, he will succeed. But most of the professionals I work with in RL would rate similarly. The real challenge is doing it with limited resources (time, environmental conditions, tools, lack of gun-fire overhead, etc.) - and that is where this highly experienced (he's 7th level) character can still do well. Again, I think this is in concept.

In general my storylines tend toward the epic. When I am running say a "street" level game, I plan to use the point buy system.

At the end of the day, it really boils down to what kind of game the GM wants to run. Fortunately, T20 is flexible enough to handle this. If you are looking for a scrappy game where the PC's have to worry about their next meal and getting through their normal routine, then go with the point buy method and limit the terms of service. If you want epic, heroic feats in unusual circumstances, then go with a favroable die-roll method (or heck, just up the attribute points available for point-buy) and allow as many as 5 terms in pre-history. Many folks interested in a nobles campaign simly grant the PC's titles at no cost just so they can run a high level political intrigue campaign.

There is no right or wrong - the key is understanding the sensitivity of the game mechanics to changes such as higher than average stats - in this case - its that "skills end up so high". [/QB]

I know who's campaign I want to be in.

 

[MichaelL65]

Originally posted by lightsenshi:
I know who's campaign I want to be in.

Just remember: what's an epic hero without an epic villian

?

High stats are not limited to the characters....

 

[Smiling DM]

Originally posted by MichaelL65:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by lightsenshi:
I know who's campaign I want to be in.

Just remember: what's an epic hero without an epic villian

?

High stats are not limited to the characters.... </font>[/QUOTE]Your just upset cuz the last 'Big Bad' got away clean.

 

[themink]

If you don;t like the high skill levels, you would probably be happier with a lower level party.

Wave a magic wand and don;t allow them to go for their third term - that puts them roughly 4th level. Skills are now 7 rank plus fewer feats. They have to concentrate more.

Also if you have characters with 18 or more in intellegence, consider how they rolled it up. If you are doing a "five dice, pick the best 3 and re-roll 1's" then you shouldn;t be suprised at their high stats. If you use 4d6 pick the best 3 and assign immediately, if they get an 18 in their "high" stat then they are very rare and will enjoy the break it gives them.

 

[arcadayn]

Originally posted by Smiling DM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MichaelL65:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by lightsenshi:
I know who's campaign I want to be in.

Just remember: what's an epic hero without an epic villian

?

High stats are not limited to the characters.... </font>[/QUOTE]Your just upset cuz the last 'Big Bad' got away clean.</font>[/QUOTE]For the time being...

 

[arcadayn]

Originally posted by Smiling DM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MichaelL65:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by lightsenshi:
I know who's campaign I want to be in.

Just remember: what's an epic hero without an epic villian

?

High stats are not limited to the characters.... </font>[/QUOTE]Your just upset cuz the last 'Big Bad' got away clean.</font>[/QUOTE]For the time being...

 

[lightsenshi]

Originally posted by The Mink:
If you use 4d6 pick the best 3 and assign immediately, if they get an 18 in their "high" stat then they are very rare and will enjoy the break it gives them.

In my experience, using this method tends to generate stats that average in the 13 or 14 range, usually with a 16 or better thrown in for good measure. Fairly well balanced so far. Of course, you can always require players to assign in the order that they roll....

 

[Smiling DM]

Originally posted by lightsenshi:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by The Mink:
If you use 4d6 pick the best 3 and assign immediately, if they get an 18 in their "high" stat then they are very rare and will enjoy the break it gives them.

In my experience, using this method tends to generate stats that average in the 13 or 14 range, usually with a 16 or better thrown in for good measure. Fairly well balanced so far. Of course, you can always require players to assign in the order that they roll....</font>[/QUOTE]This is the method that I generally use - it indeed results in above average characters. If someone is trying to run a street level or gritty campaign, I'd suggest they use something a bit less generous (like the point-buy method).