Slower than light travel

[cym0k]

I am a fan of the Alastair Reynolds’ Revelation Space series.

In the books there is no faster than light travel. Ships can get up to tremendous speeds, but travel between systems takes years, and often decades. This leaves a lot of systems operating independently with sections of the cosmos falling out of touch with each other.

A bit like the Imperium taken to the N-th degree.

If I was to play Traveller with no “faster than light” travel, aside from ship building issues and other technological headaches, what impact would you see it having?

A vast empire that seeded part of the galaxy, operating under a single banner, but having great issues with contact and rapid deployment of resources outside of star systems. Material for juicy gaming, but is it worth trying? Rather than just try and squeeze it all together would it be better to just multiply jumps by years rather than weeks, make cryo/sleep pods a standard and hope it all somehow ones together?

 

[Timerover51]

I am a fan of the Alastair Reynolds’ Revelation Space series.

In the books there is no faster than light travel. Ships can get up to tremendous speeds, but travel between systems takes years, and often decades. This leaves a lot of systems operating independently with sections of the cosmos falling out of touch with each other.

A bit like the Imperium taken to the N-th degree.

If I was to play Traveller with no “faster than light” travel, aside from ship building issues and other technological headaches, what impact would you see it having?

A vast empire that seeded part of the galaxy, operating under a single banner, but having great issues with contact and rapid deployment of resources outside of star systems. Material for juicy gaming, but is it worth trying? Rather than just try and squeeze it all together would it be better to just multiply jumps by years rather than weeks, make cryo/sleep pods a standard and hope it all somehow ones together?

A lot depends on how fast your slower-than-light travel is. If it is 20 years to Alpha Centauri, you might be able to manage some sort of empire. It is takes 40, I doubt that any real control is possible, although some trade might take place. If you are looking at essentially generation ships, then each colony is pretty much on its own to start with.

If you can track down a copy, I would suggest looking at the old TSR game, Metamorphosis Alpha. I just got my copy out for use in my game design class, and is holds the test of time pretty well.

 

[cym0k]

I just checked the wikipedia page on Lighthuggers (sub-light speed space craft):

"Lighthuggers typically sustain an acceleration of 1 g which would enable them to reach 99% of the speed of light in about 1 earth year."

Sol to Alpha Centauri is 4.3 years at the speed of light (1.34 parsecs apparently). 1 year to accelerate, 1 year to decelerate, 4 in transit. Roughly 6 and a bit to get there. Doable I reckon.

 

[BlackBat242]

Where do they get the energy to sustain that duration of positive & negative acceleration, and how can the ship carry it?

 

[Vladika]

Where do they get the energy to sustain that duration of positive & negative acceleration, and how can the ship carry it?

I believe you flew jets and understand fuel limitations better than most. Bingo gets negated by magic?

 

[cym0k]

Why, by way of craziness of course!

"...drives contain a small wormhole linked to the very deep past, through which they draw their propulsion energies from the Quark-gluon plasma created by the Big Bang. "

Just looking at T5 NAFAL is covered, equally magically!

 

[SpaceBadger]

A vast empire that seeded part of the galaxy, operating under a single banner, but having great issues with contact and rapid deployment of resources outside of star systems. Material for juicy gaming, but is it worth trying? Rather than just try and squeeze it all together would it be better to just multiply jumps by years rather than weeks, make cryo/sleep pods a standard and hope it all somehow ones together?

What is going to hold this vast empire together with no FTL travel or communication? Yeah, colonists might have to acknowledge the empire and do as they are told when armed Imperial Navy ships appear insystem, if they don't have any defenses, but that doesn't seem like much of an empire.

 

[Vladika]

Why, by way of craziness of course!

"...drives contain a small wormhole linked to the very deep past, through which they draw their propulsion energies from the Quark-gluon plasma created by the Big Bang. "

:rofl: Thanks for posting that! I needed a good laugh right about now. That was...well, there just aren't words for what that was...

 

[cym0k]

What is going to hold this vast empire together with no FTL travel or communication? Yeah, colonists might have to acknowledge the empire and do as they are told when armed Imperial Navy ships appear insystem, if they don't have any defenses, but that doesn't seem like much of an empire.

Very good point.

:rofl: Thanks for posting that! I needed a good laugh right about now. That was...well, there just aren't words for what that was...

science-fantasy?

 

[madmike]

Higher fractions of the speed of light (example above being 99%) would have relativistic time issues thrown in as well.

 

[cym0k]

Relativity makes me wish I'd never asked...

 

[Timerover51]

Relativity makes me wish I'd never asked...

The slower you go, the less the Relativity effects. Your other problem is that the people most likely to head out as colonists are the ones that are not happy back on Earth. That would tend to make them a bit reluctant to follow any orders from Earth that are even 6 years out of date, much less decades out of date.

 

[Rabbit 3]

Where do they get the energy to sustain that duration of positive & negative acceleration, and how can the ship carry it?

One solution used a good bit in Science Fiction is the Bussard Ramscoop which collects the small amount of hydrogen found in interstellar space and uses it to fuel a fusion drive.
NASA also seems to be `blue skying` a bit on the subject of anti-matter drives so there are a couple of possibilities out there.
Relativity and the resulting `time dilation` effects of high sub light speeds are the problem in game terms though.
Trying to deal with the whole few years POV ship time = decades back on the main homeworld or the colonies problem is enough to give me a headach!

 

[aramis]

Where do they get the energy to sustain that duration of positive & negative acceleration, and how can the ship carry it?

Under Bk2 designs, a peak TL 9 non-jump hull is mounting drive D. This can be an 800Td hull.
20 Bridge
07 MD D =1
13 PP D =1
16 Crew: PNEM
01 Model 1
==
57 of 800 spent
743/10 = 74 months fuel. just over 5 years.

Under HG, let's use 1000Td - pretty optimal - Bk2 crew rates
20 Bridge
01 computer
20 MD =1
30 PP =1, uses 10T fuel per month.
16 Crew= PNEM
==
87 of 1000 spent.
913 tons remaining, 10 tons per month, 91 months. 7.5 years.

Realistically, these things either need armor, or the forcefield mentioned in beltstrike is present.

Also, actual performance will need to be reduced - 150 person weeks per ton (Beltstrike) of cargo for LS, but the first 4 don't take tonnage.

The Bk2 design 74 months fuel - drop it to 73, keep 3 tons of cargo space, and add 10 tons of LS Locker, we need 72 * 4 * 4/150 = 7.7 tons, call it 8 tons. which leaves 5 payload tons, 73 months of fuel and LS, and 1G the whole way.

The Bk5 (or T20) design is also 4 crew, and thus needs 16 person-weeks per month. so let's assume 90 months LS needed: 90*16/150=9.6 T... 10T food, 90 Months fuel, 3 tons payload.

In TNE/T4, the bridge takes less, and the PP fuel is per year, not per month, with similar percentages, but mandatory armor and a hull frame, so similar, but MUCH longer durations.

 

[BlackBat242]

I believe you flew jets and understand fuel limitations better than most. Bingo gets negated by magic?

I didn't fly them, but I did fix them for 8 years in the USMC... and grew up around Air Force types (my father's closest friend here was a B-29 pilot in the USAF up to 1951, and head mechanic for a freight airline maintenance operation at Hill AFB in the 1960s & 70s). I spent a lot of time listening to (and questioning) Bill...
hamiltonsfuneralhome.com/services/William “Bill” H. Patterson

 

[BlackBat242]

Under Bk2 designs, a peak TL 9 non-jump hull is mounting drive D. This can be an 800Td hull.

743/10 = 74 months fuel. just over 5 years.

Under HG, let's use 1000Td - pretty optimal - Bk2 crew rates

913 tons remaining, 10 tons per month, 91 months. 7.5 years.

Realistically, these things either need armor, or the forcefield mentioned in beltstrike is present.

Also, actual performance will need to be reduced - 150 person weeks per ton (Beltstrike) of cargo for LS, but the first 4 don't take tonnage.

The Bk2 design 74 months fuel - drop it to 73, keep 3 tons of cargo space, and add 10 tons of LS Locker, we need 72 * 4 * 4/150 = 7.7 tons, call it 8 tons. which leaves 5 payload tons, 73 months of fuel and LS, and 1G the whole way.

The Bk5 design is also 4 crew, and thus needs 16 person-weeks per month. so let's assume 90 months LS needed: 90*16/150=9.6 T... 10T food, 90 Months fuel, 3 tons payload.

OK, but that's minimum-crew-only, now try to make a useful vessel for passengers and/or cargo.

 

[aramis]

OK, but that's minimum-crew-only, now try to make a useful vessel for passengers and/or cargo.

Either of them: 10 tons cargo is a month less fuel; 2 passengers awake is a month less fuel (allowing for 2 Td for stored LS); 20 passengers in freeze, likewise a month less.

Specify "useful"... if planting a habitable colony, for example, at least 100 frozen colonists is my goal, and about 10 tons of tents, and 10 tons of initial food, 10 more of seedstock. that's 13 months of fuel gone. A nice 5-year cruise to gilligan's planet for the book2 design, and 6.5 years for the bk 5 one.

Before accounting for relativity, and high-frac-C gas drag.

 

[Sifu Blackirish]

Sifu drops in...

One solution used a good bit in Science Fiction is the Bussard Ramscoop which collects the small amount of hydrogen found in interstellar space and uses it to fuel a fusion drive.

Well now, it just so happens that I have been consumed with that very concept, fiction wise. Have a seat, friends...


FROM novel TALES OF A MAD SCIENTIST
FROM story EXPLORATION SAGA, spisode E PLURIBUS UNUM

Is it really possible to have a viable interstellar culture when there is no faster-than-light transport or communications technology? Common sense says that this is a task that should be placed on the 'impossible' list. Have we encountered a situation where conventional wisdom is trumped by audacity? Some skilled ones have succeeded in just such a way.

This may very well be the case with our intrepid explorers. Bold, determined, fearless. Every generation has its heroes, and these people certainly qualify as such. They could be well on the way to creating something that is much greater than the simple sum of its parts...

...tall waves continue a cycle which began many years in the past, and would continue into the forseeable future. Expending their energy on a rocky shoreline, water dissipates, draining away to leave rocks apparently intact. Will anyone be here to witness ultimate victory, when these same waves end their travels on a shoreline of sand?

A solitary figure sat in calm repose. His meditation posture was a study in perfection. Occasionally salt spray would reach his location, half a meter from a sheer cliff some six meters high. Variable winds would lift his waist length hair and threaten to twist it into a 'Gordian' knot.

None of these events were a worthy distraction, none had an effect on his serene attitude. How about the almost inaudible tones that rose and fell in pitch on a thirty second cycle? Where would someone find wind chimes in this location?

Perhaps this new event qualifies as a worthy distraction. A second sun has appeared. One overhead can be easily dismissed, another on the horizon is more difficult to ignore. Light directed into his eyes seemed to pulse in rythym with those discreetly hidden chimes, now repeating on a ten second cycle. The figure reached up slowly to shield his eyes from that persistent glare...and his vision cleared enough to see.

Responding to his movement, light dimmed to almost zero. Now he could see other dim lights and smell the faint ozone tang of electrostimulation in his nostrils. With enough presence of mind to grasp the two autoresponse handles placed at waist level, he soon saw the plasteel overplate slide away and felt his body beginning to rise. Just when his seat had reached a comfortable sitting posture and locked into place, a work arm slid in front of him, with a flatscreen display attached.

Gentle waves of the hand caused the display to adjust itself until it was at a perfect viewing distance. Finally free of that persistent dream state that seemed to want to stay, he remembered where he was...

UNITED AERTH TRANSTELLAR VEHICLE 'STARDUST'
TOTAL STATUS: BLUE
DECANTING STATUS: WITHIN FIELD NORMS
[CAUTION: RECOMMEND INGESTING STIMULANT FORMULA 1395 TO OBTAIN HOMEOSTASIS]

A work arm came from another direction, delicately holding a vial of clear fluid. He took it and sipped slowly while other displays activated and moved into position around him. He was still amazed that he did not wake up with that mental fog they warned him about. Only that first time did he have the disorientation and lack of focus lasting up to an hour. There were no difficulties with being frozen or decanted, he just didn't want to wake up. Well, one can get used to almost anything...

[MISSION TIME: YEAR 214[6132] //DAY 148 //HOUR 04 //MIN 33 //SEC 06_]

[[ HOME HYPERWAVE STATUS: [ALERT]AERTH - ORANGE
We lost the hyperwave relay to home!

[[VEHICLE HYPERWAVE STATUS: OUTBOUND - GREEN
[CAUTION]RELATIVITY - BLUE
What happened with RELATIVITY that we do not have a transfer protocol?

[[COLONY HYPERWAVE STATUS: LANDFALL - GREEN / ROCKYTOP - GREEN
[CAUTION]KRIEGERLAND - BLUE
I thought the Kriegerland relay would be fully active by now...He shook his head. He had no idea if the machined waveguides they left behind or the tachyon generators they were supposed to build were assembled into a functional system at this time. Besides, it was faster than light, but a minimal advantage. Maybe forty percent faster is all. We may just have not have a transfer protocol yet. I can always get status later...

[[MEDICAL STATUS: ADVISOR COLONIST DECANTING SCHEDULED]
[[COLONY POD TRANSFER INFORMATION]

That datastream never stopped, only going back to the beginning, repeating the cycle with more detail in presented information. Before a screen showed up telling him how many miniature electroforge components were wrapped and stacked, he made a classic motion across his throat with one hand.

Every screen cleared itself, then retracted beyond reach.

"I guess I am as awake as I am going to get for now. Time to get moving. How can I be bored already, when I have been awake for mere minutes?"

It was time for decontamination. He finally had enough stability to stand unassisted, moving to a small cylindrical tube. He stopped in front of it and it twisted around, opening for him. Stepping into the form fitting prints, a series of pressor fields kept him rigid and stable while a work arm pressed an optical blocking visor over his eyes.

Lightning played around that narrow compartment for a few seconds, then soapy water sluiced through. Besides leaving the occupant squeaky clean, they removed fine ash remaining from the carbonization of an entire layer of skin cells and hair.

By nature he was short, stocky and hirsute. Unfortunately, these chilldown canisters made hair brittle and prone to breakage. Only in the dreamtime did he possess hair, though it was nice to not have the task of shaving when he was awake...

He dressed quickly, barely aware that he was doing so. Zipping up his coverall, he happened to look at his hands. He glanced, then looked again. Why do they look different than before? He shook his head and looked again, closer, while eating a meal in the tiny galley space. What is it that fascinates him so?

Finally what it was came to the front of his mind. No clawhand!

Something never seen on Aerth during their experiments, it was a phenomenon encountered with humaans who were frozen for long periods of time. Brittle fingernails and skin pulling back at the cuticles were reported by colonists decanted at Landfall. Irritating and somewhat painful, not debilitating.