Small independent navies

[maitrejeanth]

Hello,

what is your opinion about the type and amount of ships local (non-imperial) navies could operate ?
Specifically, I have District 268 in mind (see my post about the Kinunir for background info). Several systems (Collace, Trexalon...) are said to have navies and to be upgrading them over the 1107 - 1116 period (source material : GT Behind the claw). While Collace might have mainly defensive forces, Trexalon is defintively bent on expanding and opposing imperial development in the subsector.
Any idea what these navies could look like ? I have tried working out their respective naval budgets using Trillion Credit Squadron, but the generated budgets are ridiculously low.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Mythmere]

I'm also interested in gauging the naval forces of the independent systems in the Trojan Reach. Are the TCS rules for this simple enough to post as canon, or are they intellectual property?

 

[Jame]

I'd say that the amount and quality of the system/systems navies depends upon the tl and local economy. One twist would be to have a tl10-12 (TTL, not GTL) government using tl13-14 ex-Imperial ships...

 

[Bob Weaver]

Jame,
You are half correct. According to TCS, a planet's or government's naval budget is calculated by a formula based on population. The local TL determines how 'high-tech' of a navy you can build. (If you can find a seller, you could always BUY a higher TL navy, I guess. . . ) All versions of the Traveller rules are still under copyright(and will be for most of our lifetimes), but I believe that I can give you the formula under the "fair use" clause.

Annual budget for a navy (Cr) = [(500 * pop)* Govt Multiplier]. Population is the actual sum of inhabitants, not UPP code.

The gov't mod varies by gov't code, but usually stays between 0.5 and 1.5. Is your government at war or peace? Is your gov't by nature more or less inclined to use of force? (Assume dictatorial or oppressive governments are more likely to wage aggressive war than corporations or strait democracies). Consider these things when deciding on the gov't multiplier.

I have created my own non-canon Traveller universe which is populated by many small multi-planet governments. The largest of these (13 planets, TL 15, pop 3 billion) has an annual naval budget of 1.5 trillion credits. A smaller state (6 planets, 116 million, TL 13) has an ANB of 63.75 billion credits. You're right, compared with the might of the entire Imperium, they are all laughably puny. On a local scale, or in my TU where there is no Imperium, even these local polities can build a 'force to be reckoned with'.

If you want to design fleets for these small fry, keep in mind that the design parameters will be different than for the IN. Specifically, Jump-4 will most likely not be needed. J-1 or J-2 will allow them to patrol their borders or attack immediate neighbors and leave much more room for armor and stuff. Locals can also make better use of SDBs or Monitors (large non-starships in an SDB role) because they only have to control a small area of space.

Also, with smaller navies, your PC's stand a slightly better chance of surviving a dustup with a navy ship.

 

[Jame]

Would a smaller navy need (or want) to put ships or sdbs in an outsystem, like around gas giants or in asteroid belts?

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Jame:
Would a smaller navy need (or want) to put ships or sdbs in an outsystem, like around gas giants or in asteroid belts?

There's not much evidence that any navy needs (or wants) to put ships in the outsystem. Canon may imply battles near gas giants, but it's hard to come up with a good reason for them to actually occur. There's way too many fuel sources in any outsystem for gas giant patrols to do much good.

 

[Mythmere]

Okay, but how many years of annual budget will be represented in the purchase costs of that navy's fleets? If the ships last forty years at a minimum (that's obvious since free traders are financed over that period of time), and 10% of annual budget is used for construction, then at any given time a navy would contain ships with a purchase price of four times annual budget. If fifty percent of annual budget were used, then the purchase price of the navy would be twenty times annual budget. Does that make the navies less laughable, or have I misunderstood?

 

[Mythmere]

Okay, but how many years of annual budget will be represented in the purchase costs of that navy's fleets? If the ships last forty years at a minimum (that's obvious since free traders are financed over that period of time), and 10% of annual budget is used for construction, then at any given time a navy would contain ships with a purchase price of four times annual budget. If fifty percent of annual budget were used, then the purchase price of the navy would be twenty times annual budget. Does that make the navies less laughable, or have I misunderstood?

 

[Anthony]

The TCS standard is 10 years budget.

 

[Mythmere]

Many thanks, all!

 

[Bob Weaver]

If I may clarify just a bit, the TCS standard is 10 times the ANB as your initial bank account for building the fleet.
You will want to keep in mind though, that each year 10% of the cost of the existing fleet gets cut from your budget for maintenance. So don't spend all your credits in the initial build unless you expect to lose an unhealthy chunk of your fleet every year.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Bob Weaver:
If I may clarify just a bit, the TCS standard is 10 times the ANB as your initial bank account for building the fleet.
You will want to keep in mind though, that each year 10% of the cost of the existing fleet gets cut from your budget for maintenance. So don't spend all your credits in the initial build unless you expect to lose an unhealthy chunk of your fleet every year.

Well, unless you assume that you can save money from year to year (a dubious proposition in the real world, not sure how TCS rules on it), you might as well spend it all at once. Sure, your naval budget will be entirely tied up in maintaining ships rather than building new ones, but what's the problem with that?

 

[DaveShayne]

Originally posted by Bob Weaver:
So don't spend all your credits in the initial build unless you expect to lose an unhealthy chunk of your fleet every year.

I disagree. Except in a rapidly advancing technology situation you will want to build your full complement at start since those ships will be just as good as any new construction. Even in an advancing tech situation should you feel the need to construct new ships you can place older ships in mothballs at a substantial savings while building newer models. This will give you a reserve of hulls to use to rapidly replace battle losses as well.

 

[maitrejeanth]

Thanks for your replies.

I have worked out TCS naval budgets for the 2 main players in the District 268 area, namely Trexalon and Collace.
These systems being on the brink of war, according to BTC, I have used the average of the taxation modifiers(at peace/at war)

Collace, with its 2 billion population, gets 1,150,000 Mcr yearly .
Trexalon (pop 902.000.000) gets 631,400 Mcr yearly.
As this buildup is a new development, the 10-year budget rule seems to be unreasonable.
Neither world has shipbuilding capacity (D and C starports) and will have to buy second-hand ships or will have to subcontract the building of new starships to another system. TCS has monetary depreciation rules for that case.
Where could they turn to ? The only A class straport in the district is Binges (population 700 according to BTC). Binges starport probably lacks the manpower. Collace could probably get used starsphips from the imperium and wil probably have a defensive emphasis but where will Trexalon get his fleet from ?
Bye,
Thierry

 

[TKalbfus]

Suppose you dropped the Earth of today, with all of its Nations, into a generic Traveller Universe with a vague sort of Imperium with obscure origins and humans originating off-Earth. Further suppose, that the first contactors were TL 15 merchants with all the standard Traveller tech for sale to anyone at the right price? What sort of Space Navies, do you think the Nations oof the Earth would buy?

 

[Ranger]

Originally posted by thierry_maitrejean:
Collace could probably get used starsphips from the imperium and wil probably have a defensive emphasis but where will Trexalon get his fleet from ?
Bye,
Thierry

Maybe covert assistance from the Zhodani? Zhodani front companies could buy up used ships and covert Zhodani advisers could help the Trexalon Navy upgrade them. It would probably lead to a pretty mottly assortment of ships though.

 

[shield]

Both planets can build their warships on-planet. TCS allows you to do so, but it is less efficient, (think it increases either the cost of the build time by about a factor of 2ish).

To save on maintenance costs you can mothball some of the fleet, they only cost a 1/10th of their normal maintance, but take 1/10 of the ships cost and construction time to get ready once you take them out of mothballs.

Apparently you have to spend 1/10th of your starting budget on ships 1 TL below your current TL (best do this for auxiliaries).

You can also refit ships with more modern equipment. You can replace drives, power plants and spinal mounts, but their tonnage can't increase. You can't increase the number and size of bays, nor can you change the armour but everything else can be swapped out. (new kit costs 1.5 times more than it would normally, and takes 1/4 ship construction time for big changes and 1.1 times the cost and 1/10th time for minor changes).

Now collace is an imperial client state whose application for admission is just being rubber stamped. They can get TL13/14 ex imperial navy ships. Trexalon has definite links with the sworld worlds and may be able to get ships and plans from them.

Cheers
Richard

 

[Mythmere]

The Florian League, in the Trojan Reaches?

 

[maitrejeanth]

mmmh, lots of attractive ideas there...Zhodani, Swordworlders, Florian...

The Zhodani might arm Trexalon through the Swordworlders. I run a pre 5FW campaign, so that makes strategic sense.

What might motivate the Florian League to do likewise ? Form some kind of buffer zone between them and the various powers in the Marches ? In that case, they could also provide ships to another of my favorites, the Belgardian Sojourn. Not a bad idea at all....

Thanks a lot, keep the ideas flowing.

What would the starship equivalent of the F5 freedom fighter be ? (I mean, a cheap but efficient machine, easy to maintain, that could be sold or even give away by a major power to its client states) ?
A 1000 ton destroyer escort ? Something smaller ?

Bye.

 

[shield]

The Imperium is pretty generous re old ships. They gave a kinuir class to the vegans, atlantic heavy cruisers and korrikak dreadnaughts to some client states. I think they gave the darrians a couple of azhantis.

Cheers
Richard