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Small Scale Weapon hits on Spacecraft

Sticking to my current trend of conventional spacecraft combat... how would you handle the effect of more conventional weapons on space craft? Lets say a small starliner comes under fire while orbiting a planet and awaiting passengers. A disguised pirate vessel pulls within a few hundred meters and opens up with gatlin cannons and a couple heavy plasma gun turrets. These arent designed for high speed stutterwarp warfare, they are vehicle weapons, but certainly useable in this instance. How does their damage compute to spacecraft statistics?
 
The Mongoose Mercenary book has this to say on that
Some heavier or advanced weaponry however, can be used to inflict
minor damage upon starship-scale targets. Where bullets and
flechettes cannot hope to penetrate the hull of a starship, high-yield
weapons like plasma and fusion cannons can punch through lighter
starship-scale targets.
Gaining a +4DM bonus to hit anything on the starship-scale, ground
force weaponry must divide its damage by 50 before comparing it
to a starship-scale target’s armour. Because a single weapon will,obviously, be unable to punch though armour it is possible for
multiple weapons to all target the starship simultaneously, and
the cumulative effect can inflict damage. Every additional ground
weapon beyond the first can add half its damage dice to the total
before dividing the total by 50 in order to calculate damage.
Most small arms (rifles, pistols, and the like) will have no effect
against a starship, only lasers and energy weapons have a chance
to inflict real harm.
 
Hi,

I've always kind of disliked how Traveller seems to treat starship hulls as nearly invulnerable to small arms stuff. To me, I've kind of tended to view starship hull structure as kind of built up stuff like a modern airplane or perhaps double-hull plating and ribs (like the image below), with maybe some internal radiation shielding/insulation rather than being some sort of super dense, super thick material that can't be breached by normal weapons, especially for something like 2300AD which may likely be a bit more lower tech than regular Traveller.

640px-X-38TestModel.JPG
 
Right, I remember that passage from the Traveller book but Im using classic 2300. Sorry I should have made that more clear. They two scales dont easily correlate damage wise. I may have to just work it out freeform.
 
Adversely however Im also wondering what effect a spacecraft laser or particle beam would have on a vehicle? Are they that much more powerful? Considering the scale of the combat system, they can shoot upwards of 600,000km... which is damned impressive.. or is that simply a factor of the environment? I mean, would a regular vehicle mounted laser shoot that much better in space?

There has to be a correlation here between spacecraft and vehicles and it seems the system has just skipped it.
 
Kind of suprised this thread hasnt garnered more attention. It seems an obvious shortcoming in the rules. Is it really that rare an occurence.
 
Starship weaponry vs vehicles and personnel are very deadly.

In MgT starship weapons do x50 damage to vehicles and personnel, and suffer 1/50th the damage from vehicle and personal scale weapons.

In MT the starship weapons all had listed damages (500 dmg for a beam laser-8), penetration ratings and ranges in the players guide that could be used against vehicles and personnel, likewise, personal and vehicle weapons could be used against a starship as is, they just were not all that useful against something with a 40+ armor rating (the minimum armor value for a starship).

As for the other editions, I do not recall. In any case, starship weaponry is disturbingly overpowered.
 
Sorry, missed the part that you were using classic 2300. The MgT stuff does apply to the current edition of 2300 though! :D
 
Yes, I read that bit in the Traveller 2300 book but found it way off base. Ships are nowhere near as sturdy in 2300, armor as effective or weapons as lethal.
 
Didnt I read somewhere that spacecraft weaponry didnt even function in an atmosphere?

IIRC it doesn't. See that there is no planetary defenses in 2300 AD, just ODI, and, IIRC again, there's no ortillery equivalent.

Of course, missiles don't work in atmosphere (no stutterwarp drive does), but in the Three Blind Mice camapign (Challenge 37) submunitions are allowed to be used as nuke demo charges on ground missions. It's no clear if they are carried by the troops, droped or make them explode and direct its beam to the target, but the fact that they are used for assaults (so moving troopt to the attacjed area) make me think they are not used as true nukes.

Xray lasers or something?

ITTR having read somewhere (maybe the prologue for Lone Wolf campaign, on Challenge 33?) the beams from a kafer missiles to be refered as gamma rays.
 
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As I think all those posts are adequate for this thread, even if posted on another,I quote them here:

Just one thought more here (after reviewing a friend's Traveller 2300):

Laser and plasma personal weapons in 2300 AD had its impact Mj (megajoules) equivalent described, so we can make a conversion form Mj delivered to DP (as 0.35-0.40 Mj deliver 1 DP and 0.7-0.8 Mj deliver 2 DP, I'd say 2.5 DP/Mj).

A ship's laser with a damage multiplier of 1 uses 1 Mw from your power plant, so 1 Mj per second. Do we assume its a contiunous beam laser or a pulse one?

If it is a continuous beam, the use of 1 MW fro m the power plant means that it delivers 1 Mj/sec, so, if we assume it keeps focused on the target for about 0.5 sec (taken out of my hat, we should discuss this a little more), then the ship¡s laserd deliver 0.5 Mj per impact, not too far form hand laser rifles...

If we assume it's a pulse laser (as I do, as I believe they must be quite more powerful than laser rifles), the PP recharging some kind of capacitors that then convert the energy stored to laser pulse, then the energy of each pulse will depend on how often does it shoot. If we assume only one shot is done per space combat turn, then the energy delivered would be 60 Mj per shoot. That would be my take. keeping with the numbers above, those lasers will deliver about 150 DP.

If you find them too powerful we can assume the energy being distrubuted among 2-3 shoots a minute, only one being reflected due to general difficulty to hit, so that the DP would be "only" 50-75 DP.

Off course, Particle Accelerators use 2 Mw from PP and have a x2 multiplier, so numbers would be doubled...

Now, from here we could try to extrapolate armor.

My understanding of ship-mounted laser weapons was that they salvoed many rapid shots at a multitude of different possible target locations, more or less a barrage. They are never quite specific as to exactly how many individual shots this encompasses but the fact that they occure weighs distructive power of each.

StarCruiser Page 4 "Lasers rely on several high-energy bursts to blanket several possible course endpoints for the target."

"bursts" and "blanket" seem to indicate a good many shots per turn of firing. (I have nothing but my imagination to base this on but I see a dozen or more for a single fire weapon, more for the mounts with designations allowing multiple hits.)

Now that seems reasonable but sure makes the point for thin skinned space craft.

This thread has kind of derailed toward the weaponry thing but since we are there... how do you attribute the way armor works in spacecraft v.s. vehicles?

In vehicles its straight forward.. if damage exceeds protection, it hurts more on a linear basis, but in space combat armor simply gives a chance that the damage is stopped or if it fails, comes through in total. Why the different system?

See, though, that this makes ship's lases less powerful that some personal plasma weapons, whose DP against armor may be up to 24 (tamped explosion 6 DP). or that man-held anti vehicle missiles, whose explosive DP go up to 40.

Pehaps it should be merged with the Small Scale Weapon hits on Spacecraft thread (after all, posts have merged both issues)?

See that if we assume those values (a DP value about 12 for x1 starship weapons), using a man portable plasma gun with DP as tamped explosion 6 (so 24 for a direct hit) will be the equivalent to a x2 starship weapon hit, and an anti vehicle with an explosive DP of 40 would be like a x3 starship weapon hit.

IMHO, the easier use of those small scale against starships would be to just treat them as starship weapons hits with a multiplier of DP/12 (or whatever DP you may think those x1 space weapons deliver) rounded down. For the use of armor, I'd use the space rule (having to roll over the armor value), but applying the optional rule in a sidebar of the battle of Beowulf in Invasion Sourcebook that applies a modifier of +(multiplier-1) to overcome armor (and possibly a way to reduce armor by pinpoint fire, as those weapons are used at shorter ranges and precision shoots are possible). And as I understand screens, they won't work in atmosphere.

If the fact is for a boarding (so out of atmosphere), screens would work (and had to be overcome, though I'd allow the same modifier), but I would not have them degraded by stopped hits, as they represent more localized impacts (less area affected), that would probably afffect quite less the screens as they are described in Star Cruiser. At most I'd reduce them by 1 per such hit if it rolls under its multiplier on 1d10 (though that would increase the dice rolls, so the playing time).

Another thing to discuss is how those anti-personnel weapons can be used outside atmpsphere (will plasma bolts disperse if there's not the laser heated way in atmosphere? will anti-vehicle missiles work, or they need atmosphere oxigen for the propellant to burn), etc...).

I realize that is not fully compatible with vehicles combat, but I think is th easier way to apply such damage to starships when attacked by personal weapons.
 
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Would we assume more or less automatic hits by starship weapons at more conventional ranges? (ie orbital ranges in the hundreds or maybe thousands of km.) Each tracking array simply declaring a target and rolling up damage? (Unless there was some sort of sensor jamming or failure in the works)

It would seem that given the sophisitication of their targeting systems and the presumption of multiple shots per combat round, a hit would be assured. Complicating this by requiring rolls to achieve high liklihood hits would seem just seem unnessary clutter. It would give the spacecraft a bit of an edge and respect too when facing conventional vehicles without making their weaponry devastating in effect.
 
Would we assume more or less automatic hits by starship weapons at more conventional ranges? (ie orbital ranges in the hundreds or maybe thousands of km.) Each tracking array simply declaring a target and rolling up damage? (Unless there was some sort of sensor jamming or failure in the works)

It would seem that given the sophisitication of their targeting systems and the presumption of multiple shots per combat round, a hit would be assured. Complicating this by requiring rolls to achieve high liklihood hits would seem just seem unnessary clutter. It would give the spacecraft a bit of an edge and respect too when facing conventional vehicles without making their weaponry devastating in effect.

I'd would assume those more or less automatic hits (or at least good positive modifiers) for orbiting spacecrafs, in the 0.1 G threeshold, when stutterwarp drive is not efficient (and so assuming to be just using station keeping trusters), unless they may somhow use the same body orbited to hide, or there are many other unwanted targets to discriminate (e.g. many civilian satellites that you don't want to damage for political reasons).

After all, in 2300 it's said deorbiting is a delicate moment to be ambushed by enemy fleet (IIRC in some Invasion Sourcebook battles).
 
Yes, spacecraft in low orbit certainly, where they might share space with more conventionally driven and armed system defense vehicles. These would take automatic hits as well I believe as nothing they could provide in the way of manuever is going to challenge a weapon system designed to register hits at 900,000km at targets moving about 67,000km/hr (about 18km/sec) for a stutterwarp 1 efficiency ship within the .0001G threshold.

As far as low speed or stationary vessels/instalations are concerned, autohits are a given.

"Mr. Talbot, target that freighter just coming out of dock there at 3oclock" = ZAP
 
See that if we assume those values (a DP value about 12 for x1 starship weapons), using a man portable plasma gun with DP as tamped explosion 6 (so 24 for a direct hit) will be the equivalent to a x2 starship weapon hit, and an anti vehicle with an explosive DP of 40 would be like a x3 starship weapon hit.

IMHO, the easier use of those small scale against starships would be to just treat them as starship weapons hits with a multiplier of DP/12 (or whatever DP you may think those x1 space weapons deliver) rounded down. For the use of armor, I'd use the space rule (having to roll over the armor value), but applying the optional rule in a sidebar of the battle of Beowulf in Invasion Sourcebook that applies a modifier of +(multiplier-1) to overcome armor (and possibly a way to reduce armor by pinpoint fire, as those weapons are used at shorter ranges and precision shoots are possible). And as I understand screens, they won't work in atmosphere.

After thinking it for a while, I think it would be better (for sake of simplicity) to use DP/10 as space damage multiplier, rolling 1d10 under any remaining DPs to augment its multiplier by 1 (so, a 12 DP hit would be a x 1 damage and would roll 1d10 against the 2 remaining DPs, on a 0 or 1, this hit is treated as a x 2 damage hit).
 
I agree... dividing by 10 works well. Do we then accept the inverse that space combat weapons multiply by 10 to determine relative DP when attacking vehicles? This would seem to make them fairly weak, unless we give them multiple hit possibilities.
 
I agree... dividing by 10 works well. Do we then accept the inverse that space combat weapons multiply by 10 to determine relative DP when attacking vehicles? This would seem to make them fairly weak, unless we give them multiple hit possibilities.

Remember they only use 1 MW from PP, so they are not the all-destroying 250 MW lasers from Traveller.

As damage point value for laser rifles is about 2.5-3 times its Mj impact value, this will asume about 4 secconds accumulating energy to shoot a 4 Mj burst, so keeping with the 12-15 shoots a minute you told about.
 
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