Smaller ships are coming to win us

[san*klass]

Looking to return to CT OTU I am working through the Traveller Book for the first time in thirty years. I am increasingly drawn to the small ship universe as presented in the rules there, where a 1250 ton Kinunir is a Colonial CRUISER and 5000 tons is the biggest possible size ship.

To this end I was wondering if anyone can please give me advice as to which Adventures and Supplements have ships built with this design ethic and not High Guard?

Kinunir (presumably?) is, but I was wondering which others are ?

Broadsword and Safari Ship (yes?) Traders and Gunboats (maybe), Leviathan and Fighting Ships (probably not?)

All advice gratefully received.

 

[McPerth]

See that Kinunir canot be built without HG, though, as the Blcack Globe (one of its main facts) does not appear in previous books.

 

[mike wightman]

The Kinunir and the Gazelle borrow from some sort of GDW HG house rules, since both contain fixtures that do not match anything in HG1 or HG2 - there are similarities with stuff in those rule books but they are not exactly the same.
Of those two big ship supplements it was HG1 that most influenced the Kinunir and the Gazelle.

 

[GypsyComet]

You can use High Guard and still keep a Small Ship setting by simply not using the larger hulls. Stop at 5k like Book 2 does, or stop at 10k and ignore the spinal weapons.

Use the tools. Don't let the tools use you.

 

[mike wightman]

As to the ships you have mentioned, only Fighting Ships is really off limits - although there are ships in there that fall within the 5000t limit and can be fudged with LBB2 construction rules.

For military ships in LBB2 you will really need to think about how you upgun them with things like missile bays, particle accelerator barbettes. Do you want to add armour, nuclear dampers, black globes, drop tanks - that sort of thing.

 

[atpollard]

You can use High Guard and still keep a Small Ship setting by simply not using the larger hulls. Stop at 5k like Book 2 does, or stop at 10k and ignore the spinal weapons.

Use the tools. Don't let the tools use you.

Amen.
Preach it brother.

(sorry, I get excited about small ships and HG.)

 

[mike wightman]

You are then faced with making stuff up as to how HG weapons etc. work in a LBB2 environment. :CoW:

What is the damage of a PA barbette in CT terms? How effective is armour factor 5? What does a nuclear damper do? How many missiles does a missile bay launch... etc.

That's part of the fun

 

[san*klass]

Many thanks to all for your insightful comments and advice. I used to own a copy of HG back in the day, but can't recall to much about it (from 30 years ago!). But I do recall being swept up with all the new rules and rushing off in that direction.

My older (and maybe more insightful) incarnation wants to now try going the other way and staying with TTB. And I don't see myself running a military campaign so black globes, meson guns and particle accelerators can be "hand waved" anyway.

I just wanted small ship descriptions and deck plans that reflected the TTB/Bk2 rules, which all but Fighting ships seems to support. And it sounds like Traders and Gunboats covers most of the ships I am looking for.

One last question on this thread, if you please.

I can recall there being a description and deckplan (somewhere) for a 500 ton Zhodani destroyer?? Can anyone please guide me which book might have that, oh and any other Zhodani ships?

 

[GypsyComet]

I can recall there being a description and deckplan (somewhere) for a 500 ton Zhodani destroyer?? Can anyone please guide me which book might have that, oh and any other Zhodani ships?

CT sources of Zhodani deckplans are all from FASA with one exception. They can be found in the two Adventure Class Ship folios from FASA, a larger ship from FASA in its own package (the 2000 dton Vlezhdatl), and the 600 dton Patrol Ship in GW's IISS Ship Files. All are now available from FFE (ie. Marc) as PDFs.

None of them are 500 dtons that I recall.

Stats and an external picture for another 600 dton patrol ship (the Shivva) are in Adventure 4 Leviathan, and repeated in Expedition to Zhodane. No plans, though, until later editions, though the Shivva may be running around the net in a fan form as well.

GURPS and Mongoose plans for some Zhodani ships do exist, but this is a CT posting.

 

[Timerover51]

Traders and Gunboats is all small ship universe. Chamax and Chamax Plague are small ship as well. I remember a Zhodani destroyer being mentioned in Twilight's Peak, Adventure Number 3, but I do not think that there are any deck plans. I think that it does give ship data though. I would have to dig out my copy to check.

As Twilight's Peak takes place on the Spinward Main, small ships work well.

The Traveller Adventure would not be that helpful in the sense of ships, as it does have an Azhanti High Lightning-class cruiser it in. It does have quite useful planet descriptions however.

Research Station Gamma does have a very well developed planet without an excessively high tech level, and might make a nice base to operate from. It does look like whoever did the writeup on Vanejen, the location of Research Station Gamma, did not have a copy of that adventure. It is one of the few adventures that includes submarines.

 

[GypsyComet]

The Traveller Adventure would not be that helpful in the sense of ships, as it does have an Azhanti High Lightning-class cruiser it in.

Entirely off-screen. Swap it for something else.

 

[Timerover51]

Entirely off-screen. Swap it for something else.

I was thinking more is ideas for adventures using a small ship, as that is what the player characters have in the adventure. The planetary write up as quite useful to get a feel for what a more developed planet listing is like, and you could readily drop the whole conspiracy thing and just use it for a basis for other adventures.

 

[GypsyComet]

you could readily drop the whole conspiracy thing and just use it for a basis for other adventures.

Absolutely. By current standards The Traveller Adventure feels a bit railroady, even though the events are supposed to be spread out over as much as a couple years. The on-screen ships are all Book 2 designs. The conspiracy can certainly still be used in a small ship universe, as you need only mentally convert the Lightning Class Cruiser to 5000 tons, use the B2 equivalents of larger weapons as "fudged" for the Kinunir and in the JTAS article on the Gazelle, and keep the situation the same.

 

[aramis]

Traders and Gunboats is all small ship universe. Chamax and Chamax Plague are small ship as well.

Two of the T&G designs are book 5 designs, not doable under Bk2 as they appear: The Close Escort and the SDB.

 

[mike wightman]

There may be a Zhodani ship deckplan or two in the various MgT supplements and adventures that deal with the Zhodani.

Speaking of MgT and deckplans they have all the ships from The Traveller Adventure for free download here:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/r...campaigns/aramis-the-traveller-adventure.html

just scroll to the bottom and click on the link. These ships were all originally LBB2 designs and these deck plans are close enough

 

[BlackBat242]

You can use High Guard and still keep a Small Ship setting by simply not using the larger hulls. Stop at 5k like Book 2 does, or stop at 10k and ignore the spinal weapons.

Use the tools. Don't let the tools use you.

As to the ships you have mentioned, only Fighting Ships is really off limits - although there are ships in there that fall within the 5000t limit and can be fudged with LBB2 construction rules.

For military ships in LBB2 you will really need to think about how you upgun them with things like missile bays, particle accelerator barbettes. Do you want to add armour, nuclear dampers, black globes, drop tanks - that sort of thing.

Amen.
Preach it brother.

(sorry, I get excited about small ships and HG.)

You are then faced with making stuff up as to how HG weapons etc. work in a LBB2 environment. :CoW:

What is the damage of a PA barbette in CT terms? How effective is armour factor 5? What does a nuclear damper do? How many missiles does a missile bay launch... etc.

That's part of the fun

Look at the real-world navies of 1900 - and use their ship classes and tonnages for your "small-ship Traveller" ships*.

Limit them to TL 12 (with a few TL 13 systems, perhaps one or two per ship to reflect refits to test new developments - and make the choice of TL13 systems different for each class).

Then have lots of real fun! :coffeegulp:


At least, that's my idea of a fun Traveller setting!



* Here is a Google preview of the 1900 edition of Jane's All the World's Fighting Ships https://books.google.com/books?id=C2RCxi8jZwYC&pg=PA107&lpg=PA107&dq=Janes+fighting+ships+1900&source=bl&ots=3lDPPOzrca&sig=88rSkI_SPgp9alTPUUn3MTNB6r4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi5-8rjp5XMAhVW1WMKHU0PCncQ6AEIQzAH#v=onepage&q=Janes%20fighting%20ships%201900&f=false
Now a standard Naval reference volume, it was originally published as the data supplement for a wargame!
Naval enthusiast and analyst Fred T. Jane came up with a set of rules for depicting naval actions with the use of model ships, or miniatures around 1898, and published his warship reference to provide consistent data for the players of his game (the gun tables and armor descriptions include the power ranking letters for players to look up on his weapon vs armor tables). Early editions of the book even included a copy of the game rules!

 

[kilemall]

IMTU I have CT and HG ships, but limiting it all to J-1 and TL10.

The TL puts a cap on the HG ship size.

Drive and plant lettered components are ISO standards (Interstellar Standards Organization) and are backwards-compatible across TLs, all very modular and standardized.

Most commercial ships are CT based, as are many of the smaller patrol and rescue vessels.

HG is for unusual high performance civilian ships, but mostly for warships of the larger classes and/or armament. They are much fussier about mixing TL or having the right TL shipyard do repairs/upgrades, and so have far more limited choices for support.

 

[agorski]

I can recall there being a description and deckplan (somewhere) for a 500 ton Zhodani destroyer?? Can anyone please guide me which book might have that, oh and any other Zhodani ships?

Expedition to Zhodane had a 600 ton Patrol Frigate, 600 ton Patrol Corvette, and a 2000 ton Strike Cruiser, as well as some small craft.

Broadsword also had the same or similar ships.

FASA's Adventure Class Ships Vol. 1 had a 400 ton Destroyer Escort and a 400 ton SDB.

The Stazhlekh Report had a 600 ton Patrol Frigate and a 400 ton SDB.

The Zhodani Alien Module had a 600 ton Escort and a 2000 ton Council Cruiser.

IISS Ship Files had a 600 ton Patrol Frigate.

That's all that I could find when I built a giant spreadsheet of ship designs.

 

[GypsyComet]

Expedition to Zhodane had a 600 ton Patrol Frigate, 600 ton Patrol Corvette, and a 2000 ton Strike Cruiser, as well as some small craft.

Broadsword also had the same or similar ships.

FASA's Adventure Class Ships Vol. 1 had a 400 ton Destroyer Escort and a 400 ton SDB.

The Stazhlekh Report had a 600 ton Patrol Frigate and a 400 ton SDB.

The Zhodani Alien Module had a 600 ton Escort and a 2000 ton Council Cruiser.

IISS Ship Files had a 600 ton Patrol Frigate.

That's all that I could find when I built a giant spreadsheet of ship designs.

FASA's Adventure Class Ships folios also had two Zhodani scouts. The Ninz (essentially a Type S), and the Chatl Leader Scout (150 dtons), as well as the Fanzhienz (Type A equivalent). FASA also published the Vlezhdatl as a separate product. As a 2000 dton "Strike Cruiser" the Vlezhdatl is definitely a small ship universe design, though not a pure Book 2 ship due to the bay weapon.

GDW would have published a 300 dton trader with plans under MT, but that issue of Imperiallines didn't make it out the door before MT was replaced by TNE.

 

[Timerover51]

Now a standard Naval reference volume, it was originally published as the data supplement for a wargame!
Naval enthusiast and analyst Fred T. Jane came up with a set of rules for depicting naval actions with the use of model ships, or miniatures around 1898, and published his warship reference to provide consistent data for the players of his game (the gun tables and armor descriptions include the power ranking letters for players to look up on his weapon vs armor tables). Early editions of the book even included a copy of the game rules!

I have a complete set of the various Jane's Rules, including the original 1898 version. Don Featherstone's book, Naval Wargaming, has the 1898 rules as well, in a different layout, and Don calls them the 1912 Rules for some reason. I believe that someone in England has republished the 1912 rules. The author and designer of the Coast Artillery War Game, William Chamberlaine, also worked with Fred Jane. You can download the 1916 version of the Coast Artillery War Game from archive.org. I have a complete set of that game as well, as its last edition was 1921. I would call the Jane Game and the Coast Artillery Game detailed simulations rather than games, as they were intended for the training of officers, without worrying about game balance or ease of play.

I have done a conversion of the 1898 Jane Rules to use percentile dice, and for a while was running it at conventions. Probably should get a copy of the re-worked rules out and re-type them for PDF file format. Add to my "To Do" list.