Social Standing as Campaign Theme

[Bob Weaver]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Social Standing [SOC] is, I think, an under-used and under appreciated stat . It gets scant mention in LBB 1, much less than the other personal stats. “Social Standing notes the social class and level of society from which the character and his family come.” This is all we are told about SOC. Yes, it helps you get commissioned in the Navy, but that's about it. If you happen to roll or improve to a SOC of 11+ you get to add a title. Nothing else is said about what it means to be of any SOC at all. The ranks of nobility are in a table in LBB 3 but still very little info is given about what any of this means within the game.There have been some follow-on articles published in gaming magazines that elaborate on the advantages of being a Noble, but say nothing about how a character gets to be a Noble.
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Over at my blog [/FONT]http://deepinthestax.blogspot.com/2012/07/social-climbing-in-traveller.html[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I have posted an essay discussing ways to turn the pursuit of higher SOC into a campaign theme. I've approached it as the result of character's actions within the game that affect their reputation rather than as actions taken to accrue some meta-game points that can be traded for a +1 SOC. I would like to hear from some other Travellers how they would handle changing this under-used stat, and how SOC aids or hinders character within the game.

Cheers,

Bob W.
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[saundby]

You're right, in LBBs 1-3 it's not given much play, it's just something that's left as a tool for the ref. In my original campaign set up before the Imperium campaign materials were published I used it as a measure of the character's "pull" and as a loose measure of native leadership ability (aside from the Leader skill.) The society was an egalitarian one, the titles weren't much good outside of dinner parties otherwise.

If you go beyond the LBBs into the campaign materials, there's a lot more there. Though building it into your own campaign any way you please works, too.

 

[Poppyseed45]

You're right, in LBBs 1-3 it's not given much play, it's just something that's left as a tool for the ref. In my original campaign set up before the Imperium campaign materials were published I used it as a measure of the character's "pull" and as a loose measure of native leadership ability (aside from the Leader skill.) The society was an egalitarian one, the titles weren't much good outside of dinner parties otherwise.

If you go beyond the LBBs into the campaign materials, there's a lot more there. Though building it into your own campaign any way you please works, too.

Yeah, you always can. For my current campaign, I'm treating SOC a little bit like Circles in Burning Wheel; it's a measure of who you can know. One of the PCs is a SOC D former Diplomat (using Supplement 4). I figured, at least on the subsector capital and his homeworld, it means that he's got access to CEOs of companies, a few high level government types and the like. It opens the door. If he were a "mere" knight, maybe no. But a Marquis? Of course!

 

[saundby]

Nice!

Similar to how I use SOC when starting a campaign with child characters:
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/rules/childsplay.html

Since children are not in a position to fully realize their SOC value (if rolled as a full 2d6 value), I treat it as what sort of access they have and their influence, rather than their actual position.

 

[rancke]

The biggest problem with Traveller Soc is that the same mechanic that is used to randomly determine what station in life a player character came from is also used to randomly determine the station in life of NPCs whose station in life should be pretty obvious in advance. If a man has a middle class job, he's almost certainly middle class, barring some extraordinary (and quite rare) circumstances. A country doctor or lawyer is not Soc 2 or Soc 12. He's Soc 8 or 9. If he was born lower lower class (2), he has elevated himself into the upper middle class by getting a degree and a job. If he hadn't eleveated himself, he'd be practicing his profession in low class slums. If he was born Soc 12 and became a doctor or lawyer, he almost certainly won't be practicing in the country but working for megacorporations or an Imperial count or duke.

And if he's a private of marines or a customs inspector, he's very, very unlikely to be an Imperial baron, canonical examples of such people to the contrary notwithstanding.



Hans

 

[Poppyseed45]

The biggest problem with Traveller Soc is that the same mechanic that is used to randomly determine what station in life a player character came from is also used to randomly determine the station in life of NPCs whose station in life should be pretty obvious in advance. If a man has a middle class job, he's almost certainly middle class, barring some extraordinary (and quite rare) circumstances. A country doctor or lawyer is not Soc 2 or Soc 12. He's Soc 8 or 9. If he was born lower lower class (2), he has elevated himself into the upper middle class by getting a degree and a job. If he hadn't eleveated himself, he'd be practicing his profession in low class slums. If he was born Soc 12 and became a doctor or lawyer, he almost certainly won't be practicing in the country but working for megacorporations or an Imperial count or duke.

And if he's a private of marines or a customs inspector, he's very, very unlikely to be an Imperial baron, canonical examples of such people to the contrary notwithstanding.



Hans

Well, for soldiers, there is the precedent of so called "Gentlemen Rankers." They fought like privates/corporals/sergeants, but messed (i.e. ate their meals) with officers (who were supposed to be gentlemen, as it were), despite their acceptability to be officers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentlemen-Rankers

 

[rancke]

Well, for soldiers, there is the precedent of so called "Gentlemen Rankers." They fought like privates/corporals/sergeants, but messed (i.e. ate their meals) with officers (who were supposed to be gentlemen, as it were), despite their acceptability to be officers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentlemen-Rankers

Yes, but Imperial barons are (or at least ought to be; I know many Traveller authors have overlooked the ramifications of how rare and how powerful Imperial nobility is) the social equals of princes and kings, not gentlemen.

Still, that's a sidetrack. Yes, there are exceptions to most social pigeon-holing in many societies (Not all; some societies have VERY rigid social ranks). If it mattered, I might suggest giving a 'Usual Soc' to every job and then making a random roll to see if the NPC in the job had a Soc one or two levels higher or lower (and with one of the results (the rarest) being "roll completely randomly"). I suspect that most of the time it won't matter.

Though it might be fun to individualize a new society by rolling Soc randomly the first time you met someone in a particular position and then work out why doctors are Soc 4 and railway conductors are Soc 11 in this society.


Hans

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Heh. That random SOC society would be fun.

The issue with SOC 2 doctors and SOC B privates can always be solved with a little creativity. Remember, the story is what's important, not simply rolling dice to get a mechanical result.

There's also the factor of how you interact with people - if you were born trailer trash and you never learned not to pick your nose when about to shake someone's hand, even if you hold a medical degree, you're still trailer trash. (I have a character who is ugly as sin - "His face could stop an SDB!" - and never fully adopted upper class mannerisms, despite climbing to the top of a MegaCorp. He can act like the bourgeoisie if he needs to, but it isn't really him.)

There will be some standard tropes, because the game mechanics don't accommodate someone starting out at the top ("Daddy made me Captain! Now do what I say!"). So, your SOC B Merchant will start out at the bottom because he's a second son who isn't well-loved, or Daddy wants him to earn his way to the top, or he's from an on-the-outs family or some such. Of course, you can always make it up as you go along - it's all about the story.

 

[Poppyseed45]

Yes, but Imperial barons are (or at least ought to be; I know many Traveller authors have overlooked the ramifications of how rare and how powerful Imperial nobility is) the social equals of princes and kings, not gentlemen.
Hans

Aye, but as I understand the Imperium, except for the Subsector and Sector Dukes, Impeial nobility, by and large, have no power. My impression was that Marc wanted to model these nobles mostly on 19th century British ones, where they had titles, possible membership in the House of Lords, plenty of social pull, but no real power. Commoners could and did rise in government; just nobles had an easier time of it in some cases. Which is at least how I run MTU.

 

[mike wightman]

This is one of those never really answered topics of the OTU - although GURPS Nobles made a great stab at it - "how much status do Imperial Nobles have with planetary governments?"

The Imperium rules the space between the stars, controls technological development and interstellar trade, defends against external threats etc.

But, planets self govern, they have very few Imperial guidelines that they must follow (pay your taxes appears to be the only really important one) and they may rule themselves in any way they see fit.

So in a room you have the peoples elected president for life (despot) of Whocareswhere, the Imperial baron of Whocareswhere, the LSP regional director (Whocareswhere division) and the Admiral commanding the naval base on Whocareswhere.

Who has the greater authority - who defers to who - what are their relative social standing characteristics?

 

[rancke]

The issue with SOC 2 doctors and SOC B privates can always be solved with a little creativity. Remember, the story is what's important, not simply rolling dice to get a mechanical result.

The issue with any one Soc 2 doctor and any one Soc 11 private can be solved with a little (or a lot) creativity. The issue with all doctors being randomly Soc 2-12, average of 7 and all privates being randomly Soc 2-12, average of 7 and all stevedores, railway conductors, shoe salesmen, beggars, belters, diplomats, flyers, barbarians, bureaucrats, Scientists, hunters, etc., etc. being randomly Soc 2-12, average of 7 on the other hand, can not be solved no matter how much creativity you waste on it, because it is fundamentally unreasonable.

There's also the factor of how you interact with people - if you were born trailer trash and you never learned not to pick your nose when about to shake someone's hand, even if you hold a medical degree, you're still trailer trash.

That would fall under explaining one Soc 2 doctor. There are a lot of doctors it wouldn't explain, because in many societies someone like that would never get and keep a job as a country doctor or at a reputable hospital. Med-tech at a logging camp, maybe...

There will be some standard tropes, because the game mechanics don't accommodate someone starting out at the top ("Daddy made me Captain! Now do what I say!").

That's the point I was making: The game mechanics do not accommodate plausible social setups. In fact, they work contrary to plausible social setups.

Of course, you can always make it up as you go along - it's all about the story.

Indeed. Which is a problem when the game mechanics do not support the story.


Hans

 

[rancke]

This is one of those never really answered topics of the OTU - although GURPS Nobles made a great stab at it - "how much status do Imperial Nobles have with planetary governments?"

Wrong question, though. I'm talking about what status planetary leaders would have with the Imperium.

GURPS Nobles did the best job it could given the restraints it labored under (not allowed to have more than 8 positive social levels, which forced Jon to cram something like 12 GURPS levels into 8 (Or rather, to force 8 planetary levels into 5 or 6 and then add the Imperial levels on top)). But we don't have to turn away from CT to answer the question, just apply a bit of logic to what we already know. An Imperial Duke is two steps up from leaders of major worlds. Counts are one step up from leaders of major worlds. Marquesses are on the level of leaders of major worlds. Barons are on the level of leaders of medium worlds/continental-level leaders. Knights, or more accurately the level they occupy (11), cover every planetary level between country squire and regional ruler (which is the second biggest flaw of the system -- everything from the lower class to gentry is spread out over ten full social levels (roughly twice as many as needed) and everything else up to interstellar level is squeezed into one))

The lack of separate planetary nobility is presumably what made early Traveller writers use Imperial barons and marquesses as the equivalent of European-style barons and marquesses in the adventures, overlooking that the former would be much, much rarer than the latter.

So in a room you have the people elected president for life (despot) of Whocareswhere, the Imperial baron of Whocareswhere, the LSP regional director (Whocareswhere division) and the Admiral commanding the naval base on Whocareswhere.

Who has the greater authority - who defers to who - what are their relative social standing characteristics?

The two questions are not equivalent. As for who defers to who, the answer is simple (in-universe, at least): just see who gets precedence over who at the Duke's Court. As for who has the greatest authority, the answer varies with the situation, but is likely to be LSP manager of Whocareswhere (who is probably a very junior LSP official to have such a comparatively low-level job) -- Despot -- Admiral -- Baron.

Social level correlates with power and authority, but the correlation is complex because the most powerful members of a social group tend to pull up the less powerful (That's why the king of a small country was treated as superior to the duke of a much bigger province; the king of the duke's country considered the other king his peer and wanted him treated accordingly).

Social standing usually arise from power, but from the power of the most powerful members of the class, not the least powerful. And once social standing has been established, it tends to get somewhat divorced from the power and wealth. That's why dirt poor Russian emigré nobles were invited into the homes of British nobles when filthy rich commoners weren't. Who gets invited to the social event that has room for only the 400 people that can be accomodated in the Duke's Grand Dining Room? First the Imperial nobles and then as many planetary leaders as there is room for[*]. Whose child gets accepted to the most prestigious school in the duchy when there's only one spot open? Assuming they both can afford the fees, the child of the Imperial noble beats the child of the non-noble planetary leader.

[*] Ignoring the complication introduced by a small handful of planetary leaders having Imperial titles.​

Hans

 

[Fritz_Brown]

The issue with all doctors being randomly Soc 2-12, average of 7 and all privates being randomly Soc 2-12, average of 7 and all stevedores, railway conductors, shoe salesmen, beggars, belters, diplomats, flyers, barbarians, bureaucrats, Scientists, hunters, etc., etc. being randomly Soc 2-12, average of 7 on the other hand, can not be solved no matter how much creativity you waste on it, because it is fundamentally unreasonable.

But, you see, Rancke, there's your problem: the character generation system wasn't intended to make everyone in society. Have you ever actually used the chargen to produce every inhabitant of a town? If you did, I suggest you have too much time on your hands or are way too detail-oriented. You create the society you want to create when you make it. It's part of the scenery. You don't describe each and every tree in the forest they flit over in their air/raft, do you? At worst, you describe the forest as a whole, and maybe toss out that really tall one they're about to smash into, 'cause they're not paying attention to their driving.

It's not so bad, even as far as PCs go. Really, an average SOC2 person wouldn't end up going to college and med school. An INT3 person wouldn't make it into the Navy (Army, maybe.....). And, a player that even tried to run a character that didn't fit the general concept would have to explain to me (the referee) just how that came to be. They couldn't put +s and -s on every stat, though, when they designed the careers. They had to draw the line somewhere. If you want to mod someone's SOC based on their success or failure in their career, then do so - and explain why. Again, it's a game, and the UPP is just a description.

Oh, and don't forget that distribution is a ... well, not a bell curve, but a pyramid. So, SOC2 anybodies will be few and far between, as will the SOCC anybody. Unless your players are playing with loaded dice, you won't get many SOC2 doctors anyway. Solving them on an individual basis works just fine.

 

[rancke]

But, you see, Rancke, there's your problem: the character generation system wasn't intended to make everyone in society.

How do you know? I agree that it would work a lot better if it was only meant for creating PCs, but the evidence suggests that almost every NPC in canon has been created using the character generation system. I won't rule out the possibility that a few authors have assigned social levels to their NPCs rather than rolling for it, but I wouldn't be able to prove it. So while what you say makes perfect sense, the likelihood that you are wrong is high.

Have you ever actually used the chargen to produce every inhabitant of a town? If you did, I suggest you have too much time on your hands or are way too detail-oriented. You create the society you want to create when you make it. It's part of the scenery. You don't describe each and every tree in the forest they flit over in their air/raft, do you? At worst, you describe the forest as a whole, and maybe toss out that really tall one they're about to smash into, 'cause they're not paying attention to their driving.

What's you point? I've never made up all the people in a community, but if I did, I would assign social levels rather than rolling for them. However, there are no rules in any Traveller version that helps a referee make up groups of NPCs in any way different from PCs. No suggestions that all officers of Imperial forces are considered gentlemen and have a minimum social level of 8, not suggestions that members of small rural communities would tend to hhave these and those social levels, not suggestions that professors at the subsector's Imperial university would tend to be upper middle or even lower upper class. There are, OTOH, articles that points out ways to use the character generation system for generating NPCs.

It's not so bad, even as far as PCs go. Really, an average SOC2 person wouldn't end up going to college and med school.

There are no impediments getting into the Doctor's career from having low Soc. More to the point, even if there had been, once someone from the gutters has gotten into college and through medical school, his Soc would almost certainly rise to equal his new position in life. That's how social level usually work. And in those societies where it doesn't, someone from the gutters wouldn't get into college in the first place.

Oh, and don't forget that distribution is a ... well, not a bell curve, but a pyramid. So, SOC2 anybodies will be few and far between, as will the SOCC anybody. Unless your players are playing with loaded dice, you won't get many SOC2 doctors anyway. Solving them on an individual basis works just fine.

Making all country doctors Soc 8 (possible plus/minus 1) works even better. With unusual individuals introduced by referee fiat occasionally.


Hans

 

[Poppyseed45]

Oh, and don't forget that distribution is a ... well, not a bell curve, but a pyramid. So, SOC2 anybodies will be few and far between, as will the SOCC anybody. Unless your players are playing with loaded dice, you won't get many SOC2 doctors anyway. Solving them on an individual basis works just fine.

Kinda agree with this actually - the system, as I understand it, isn't meant to model everyone, just those yahoos who become Travellers of the galaxy. As such, one of those murder hobos could be a SOC 2 doctor somehow. Question is, why? Is he trained as a doctor because of hard times on his homeworld, where they took anybody rather than the gentlemen and ladies they preferred? Is he a "back-alley" doctor; disreputable reputation and standing in society, service to the underfed and unwanted. Or what?

For me, the system is just fine. I like how it "forces" players to rationalize weird things like that. For "adventurers" anyway.

 

[rancke]

Kinda agree with this actually - the system, as I understand it, isn't meant to model everyone, just those yahoos who become Travellers of the galaxy.

To quote myself from the very first post in this subthread:

"The biggest problem with Traveller Soc is that the same mechanic that is used to randomly determine what station in life a player character came from is also used to randomly determine the station in life of NPCs whose station in life should be pretty obvious in advance. " [Me] (Emphasis added)​

As such, one of those murder hobos could be a SOC 2 doctor somehow. Question is, why? Is he trained as a doctor because of hard times on his homeworld, where they took anybody rather than the gentlemen and ladies they preferred? Is he a "back-alley" doctor; disreputable reputation and standing in society, service to the underfed and unwanted. Or what?

You're missing my point in a major way. If the referee is introducing the village doctor or the doctor the PCs meet at the big fancy hospital, you already know that that particular doctor is not a hobo or a back-alley doctor.

For me, the system is just fine. I like how it "forces" players to rationalize weird things like that. For "adventurers" anyway.

That would be the system that is "used to randomly determine what station in life a player character came from". Which is also the system "used to randomly determine the station in life of NPCs whose station in life should be pretty obvious in advance." The second part is the problem I was pointing out.


Hans

 

[DangerousThing]

I've always had a problem with Soc being a base attribute. I would have prefered something like Willpower instead with Soc being a secondary attribute caculated from various factors and changing over time.

It could be something like:
Soc = 2d-7 + C + n
where C is a constant from the career, and n is the increase in Soc from chargen. There might be other factors.

However, I would also disconnect Soc from nobility ranks a bit. You could have a high Soc because you are a high officer in a Megacorp, or because you invented something very useful and known to all.

And a noble could be known as a ruthless incompetent bastard and have a lower Soc than his rank would normally have.

 

[CosmicGamer]

You're missing my point in a major way. If the referee is introducing the village doctor or the doctor the PCs meet at the big fancy hospital, you already know that that particular doctor is not a hobo or a back-alley doctor.

I can't see how you could randomly roll this. Simply picking an NPCs profession and other circumstances before chargen breaks things. Who and what a character is will be determined after chargen, not before.

Example:
You meet an army officer NPC. Roll chargen. Fail commission. Maybe even fail enlistment.

This "doctor" you meet may have little or no medical skill. A little more problematic than an unusual soc.

 

[DangerousThing]

I can't see how you could randomly roll this. Simply picking an NPCs profession and other circumstances before chargen breaks things. Who and what a character is will be determined after chargen, not before.

Example:
You meet an army officer NPC. Roll chargen. Fail commission. Maybe even fail enlistment.

This "doctor" you meet may have little or no medical skill. A little more problematic than an unusual soc.

When I need an NPC of a certain profession I just create one. I don't go through chargen. Chargen is for PCs.

If I need a country doctor quickly, I decide how good he is at being a doctor. If he stays around as an NPC more than just a meeting, I add other stuff as appropriate and write it down in a file for further meetings.

Why would you go to the trouble of chargen for an NPC?

Take your example of meeting an armor officer. I just tell the characters here is the officer you were to meet. I don't roll or even create skills for him until I need them.

 

[Dragoner]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_status

^^^a limited resource for sure, as the subject is covered in much more depth, esp in marketing.

To me soc is the same as ses. Marc is a sociologist iirc, so it matches up much the same. Why make up rules instead of following reality?