mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I wonder if they were improved in FF&S2?
Off to the cupboard...
Off to the cupboard...
Solar Panels
- Thread starter eklypse0
- Start date
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
And the numbers are similar.
There is this, though:
There is this, though:
T4 FF&S page 81.
Jeff M. Hopper
SOC-14 1K
I believe that there are stats for solar panels in the 2320AD playtest files, although they may have been moved.
For the sake of determining what could be powered by solar panels, I suggest that a Model/1 computer would use 10MW; a Model/2 would use 30MW; life support/shipboard power should use 0.5MW/person.
How good are these figures? Keep in mind that they're "rules of a thumb" and that a standard (fusion) power plant should be able to support these functions even if it doesn't produce excess EPs.
How good are these figures? Keep in mind that they're "rules of a thumb" and that a standard (fusion) power plant should be able to support these functions even if it doesn't produce excess EPs.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
OK, for what it's worth and if it helps your article please use it.
First MT and TNE don't seem to be talking about Photovoltaics, which is what most people seem to think of when you talk Solar Power. I don't know what they are supposed to emulate, perhaps some solar steam turbine powerplant. In any case what you and most people are probably interested in are Photovoltaics, that is flat panels of crystals that directly convert ambient light to electrical energy.
Let's start with real world PV panels. There are basically three types:
Monocrystaline which are the most expensive but also the most efficient,
Polycrystaline which are cheaper but less efficient and,
Amorphous which are the cheapest of all and (surprise) the least efficient.
Efficiency ranges from about 4% to 20%.
Let's do a comparison of real world PV to the MT and TNE numbers just for the sake of it, remembering that the game models may not be PV panels.
Approximate values for TL8 with 0.001MW rated output (full direct sun in habitable zone of a yellow sun)*
Real World:
6.25m2 Cr175
Mega Traveller:
0.25m2 Cr1,500 0.0025m3 4.0kg
The New Era:
5.0m2 Cr15,000 0.75m3 20kg (collectors)
na Cr15,000 0.05m3 100kg (cell)
As you can see they differ quite a bit and yet there are certain relationships.
Personally I'd take the approach for PV in the game to be as follows:
Photovoltaic Panels:
Values are for performance in full direct sun in the habitable zone of a yellow sun*
TL6-8: 0.001 MW 6.75m2 5.0kg Cr1,500 0.005dTons 20% conversion efficiency
The panels are rigid and very fragile when first introduced. Late developments (TL8) allow cheaper versions that may be loosely rolled or applied to semi-flexible surfaces. Such panels are 1/10th the cost and only 1/10 the listed mass as well as being 1/10th the volume and more resistant to damage, however the power output is only 1/4th that listed.
TL9-12: 0.002 MW 6.75m2 5.0kg Cr1,500 0.005dTons 40% conversion efficiency
Like the earlier versions these are fairly rigid but the materials make them less fragile. Output is increased by advanced cooling and light focussing built into the panel. A late (TL12) development is a thread version that can be woven into cloth or used in making very flexible and durable panels. These panels are 1/10th the cost and weigh only 1/10 the listed mass as well as being 1/10th the volume and more resistant to damage, however the power output is only 1/4th that listed.
TL13-17: 0.004 MW 6.75m2 5.0kg Cr1,500 0.005dTons 80% conversion efficiency
The final development of PV panels are a thin elastomeric coating that may be applied to any surface. Output is increased by built in focusing and perfect alignment of the crystals. The matrix is practically indestructible except in abnormal use. A late (TL17) development is production in an instant panel spraycan which can also be used to patch or repair damaged panels of this type. These ultra-thin panels are 1/10th the cost and weigh only 1/10 the listed mass as well as being 1/10th the volume and more resistant to damage, however the power output is only 1/4th that listed.
* Angled light, closer or further from the star, and I'd think even the type of star (and hence the spectrum) will impact this rating
-------
That's what I've been sketching out over the last several years.
Does anybody know offhand what kind of performance changes could be expected for different star types? That should really be a part of any such rule I think.
As well as adjustments for distance of course. Using the base output for the habitable zone, and 10x that for the inner and 1/100th for the outer seems good enough for a quick and dirty rule of thumb.
First MT and TNE don't seem to be talking about Photovoltaics, which is what most people seem to think of when you talk Solar Power. I don't know what they are supposed to emulate, perhaps some solar steam turbine powerplant. In any case what you and most people are probably interested in are Photovoltaics, that is flat panels of crystals that directly convert ambient light to electrical energy.
Let's start with real world PV panels. There are basically three types:
Monocrystaline which are the most expensive but also the most efficient,
Polycrystaline which are cheaper but less efficient and,
Amorphous which are the cheapest of all and (surprise) the least efficient.
Efficiency ranges from about 4% to 20%.
Let's do a comparison of real world PV to the MT and TNE numbers just for the sake of it, remembering that the game models may not be PV panels.
Approximate values for TL8 with 0.001MW rated output (full direct sun in habitable zone of a yellow sun)*
Real World:
6.25m2 Cr175
Mega Traveller:
0.25m2 Cr1,500 0.0025m3 4.0kg
The New Era:
5.0m2 Cr15,000 0.75m3 20kg (collectors)
na Cr15,000 0.05m3 100kg (cell)
As you can see they differ quite a bit and yet there are certain relationships.
Personally I'd take the approach for PV in the game to be as follows:
Photovoltaic Panels:
Values are for performance in full direct sun in the habitable zone of a yellow sun*
TL6-8: 0.001 MW 6.75m2 5.0kg Cr1,500 0.005dTons 20% conversion efficiency
The panels are rigid and very fragile when first introduced. Late developments (TL8) allow cheaper versions that may be loosely rolled or applied to semi-flexible surfaces. Such panels are 1/10th the cost and only 1/10 the listed mass as well as being 1/10th the volume and more resistant to damage, however the power output is only 1/4th that listed.
TL9-12: 0.002 MW 6.75m2 5.0kg Cr1,500 0.005dTons 40% conversion efficiency
Like the earlier versions these are fairly rigid but the materials make them less fragile. Output is increased by advanced cooling and light focussing built into the panel. A late (TL12) development is a thread version that can be woven into cloth or used in making very flexible and durable panels. These panels are 1/10th the cost and weigh only 1/10 the listed mass as well as being 1/10th the volume and more resistant to damage, however the power output is only 1/4th that listed.
TL13-17: 0.004 MW 6.75m2 5.0kg Cr1,500 0.005dTons 80% conversion efficiency
The final development of PV panels are a thin elastomeric coating that may be applied to any surface. Output is increased by built in focusing and perfect alignment of the crystals. The matrix is practically indestructible except in abnormal use. A late (TL17) development is production in an instant panel spraycan which can also be used to patch or repair damaged panels of this type. These ultra-thin panels are 1/10th the cost and weigh only 1/10 the listed mass as well as being 1/10th the volume and more resistant to damage, however the power output is only 1/4th that listed.
* Angled light, closer or further from the star, and I'd think even the type of star (and hence the spectrum) will impact this rating
-------
That's what I've been sketching out over the last several years.
Does anybody know offhand what kind of performance changes could be expected for different star types? That should really be a part of any such rule I think.
As well as adjustments for distance of course. Using the base output for the habitable zone, and 10x that for the inner and 1/100th for the outer seems good enough for a quick and dirty rule of thumb.
Good question and, (for me, at least) a surprising answer. Current photovoltaics have problems with converting light on the lower end of the visible spectrum.
This link discusses the problem and possible techniques to eliminate it.
It looks like low-tech cells would be nearly useless around red or orange stars (depending on how much of their out put is in the UV) and that all photovoltaic cells are due for a whopping increase around TL8-9.
Edit: bad guess, Piper.
This link seems to show a fair amount of radiation in the UV even for "cool" stars.
Risking another guess, I'd say useable, but with reduced output, even for full-spectrum cells.
[/quote]So, if I convert it right, at TL12+, 2.2 dton of solar cells will provide 250MW, that is, an EP - so, in the inner/habitatable zone of a star, you could power lasers (and maybe even high-energy weapons!) by solar panels!
So, how many panels do I need to keep my hydroponics and life support alive?
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Close, I get 240.57MW, using 13.5m3 to a dton. Looks like you used 14m3 and are still half a MW short 
(close enough for round figures). Remember MT was 13.5m3 per dton.
As for the computers and life support, FF&S has it but it's not handy to me at the mo. I can see the 0-EP computers operating on a small built in battery that recharges from excess power not used elsewhere, same for life support, so they don't need dedicated power, they just leach it from the mains. Of course you want numbers for independant power. I'll get out the books later unless I'm beaten to it.
The problem is the efficiency represented by those numbers. Even presuming the TL6 are woefully inefficient models with 2% conversion efficiency, the TL12 models have got 162% energy conversion which is just WRONG! Even the TL11 models with 90% efficiency are belief suspender tuggers. And really the TL6 models should probably be closer to 10% efficiency and as much as 20%.
But then referring back to my comparison you can see other differences. I don't believe these can be PV panels and must be something else. If you want to model PV panels I think you need to make up some new models in whole, starting with the real world example.
(close enough for round figures). Remember MT was 13.5m3 per dton.As for the computers and life support, FF&S has it but it's not handy to me at the mo. I can see the 0-EP computers operating on a small built in battery that recharges from excess power not used elsewhere, same for life support, so they don't need dedicated power, they just leach it from the mains. Of course you want numbers for independant power. I'll get out the books later unless I'm beaten to it.
The problem is the efficiency represented by those numbers. Even presuming the TL6 are woefully inefficient models with 2% conversion efficiency, the TL12 models have got 162% energy conversion which is just WRONG!
Even the TL11 models with 90% efficiency are belief suspender tuggers. And really the TL6 models should probably be closer to 10% efficiency and as much as 20%.But then referring back to my comparison you can see other differences. I don't believe these can be PV panels and must be something else. If you want to model PV panels I think you need to make up some new models in whole, starting with the real world example.
clair_rand
SOC-9
always assumed MT solar panels were the kind you fixed to the outside of the hull direct, hence the area restrictions..
how would ya reckon on solar arrays? make it way easy to spot you using passive sensors, fragile so your not gunna be accelerating with them deployed, but you could have huge areas. enough for an ion drive maybe.
long, slow trips, but fuel free
how would ya reckon on solar arrays? make it way easy to spot you using passive sensors, fragile so your not gunna be accelerating with them deployed, but you could have huge areas. enough for an ion drive maybe.
long, slow trips, but fuel free
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Yep, that'd be the simplest, but rather than being able to cover the entire hull area you should be limited to some fraction. Not only do you need area for all the other stuff (drives, hatches, etc) but you can only turn one side of the hull to the sun at a time, PV panels in the dark are just expensive decoration
Folding arrays were talked about above, just double the volume and cost for the same area when deployed basically, but come to think now I don't know if they still have a stored area requirement. I guess not so they must just retract into some minimal area slot when folded away.
The problem with Traveller sensor rules of course is it's based on volume, not visible cross-sectional area. Ship's are always presumed to be presenting the smallest area for sensors and targeting so I guess you could just make a bonus for spotting a ship with an extended array. Maybe TNE had adjustments for ship's with deployed sensor arrays being easier to spot and limiting maneuvering, or maybe it was house rules.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Well, from MT numbers I'm getting (bit of a handwave) computer power requirements of:
[(model/#)x0.25]+0.25 = EP
However MT computers are linear in power usage and go way beyond model/9 so a better translation for CT/HG and T20 would be:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Model/# MW EP
m/0 62.5 0.25
m/1 125.0 0.50
m/2 187.5 0.75
m/3 250.0 1.00
m/4 500.0 2.00
m/5 750.0 3.00
m/6 1250.0 5.00
m/7 1750.0 7.00
m/8 2250.0 9.00
m/9 3000.0 12.00</pre>[/QUOTE]One note of interest in the MT computer power requirements is that BIS and FIB require more power. FIB is double the power and BIS adds 62.5MW (or 0.25EP) to the figures above. That would of course include (in T20) the appropriate model of communications and sensors as well.
MT Full Life Support looks to require 0.001MW per person minimum or double that for comfort.
EDIT - Oh, and I forgot, CT/HG and T20 model/0 computers are my own invention
Jeff M. Hopper
SOC-14 1K
So here's a dumb question. Could you 'beam' power to a photovoltaic driven ship in the outer system by focusing on it with a UV laser?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Yes, and then use said beamed power to make your ion drive work.
That's a real world proposal, by the way
Shouldn't be a problem doing it in Traveller.
That's a real world proposal, by the way
Shouldn't be a problem doing it in Traveller.
For hits during combat, I consider the solar panels to be a Power Plant; the first hit at them halves their power production, the second hit renders them inoperative and the third hit makes them irreparable.
Also, TL8 solar panels shouls stand up to 2-G; TL9 up to 4-G and TL10+ up to 6G. Grav compensation aboard the ship (available in the OTU at TL8 and IMTU at TL9) allows solar panels to be used in any acceleration (as the grav-compensation extends to the panels as well).
clair_rand
SOC-9
not figured on compensatiors helping here.. always kinda assumed they internal only..
nice idea, love the beamed power idea, make the panels into a solar sail, added thrust
nice idea, love the beamed power idea, make the panels into a solar sail, added thrust
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
I never thought of Solar Power as a particularily good source of energy. The Solar Constant, which is the number for Sol at Terra Orbit, is 1.37kw per square meter per minute. At 100% effeciency (which you aren't going to get)a square meter will power 13.7 100 watt lightbulbs. Forget about running anything that uses real power. On a more practical note, to put it into perspective, a square meter will run my desktop, printer, monitor and probably my desk lamp. An electric stove is between 3000 and 4000 watts. That is 2+ square meters just to cook dinner. At 20% effeciency you would need 5 square meters, (Or an area 2.5M by 2M.) Just to post here.
To put it into perspective, my apartment is about 60 square meters. I used 845 kilowatt hours last month. (Got the bill today.) Not sure how that converts.
To put it into perspective, my apartment is about 60 square meters. I used 845 kilowatt hours last month. (Got the bill today.) Not sure how that converts.
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