Solomani on the rimward frontier

[EvilDrGanymede]

MADDog, that's all entirely your opinion. It's not reality, however. The fact remains that you aren't in a position to say what is official Traveller canon. However, you are in a position to decide what is acceptable to use in your own Traveller games.

Traveller's apparent lack of popularity most likely has very little to do with how 'restrictive' the official canon is. Hell, the canon of Star Trek, Babylon 5, or Star Wars is probably even more restrictive and they're wildly popular. But then you're comparing Traveller with d20, which is the undisputed juggernaut of the RPG market, outselling all of its competitors by several times. It's not exactly a fair comparison.

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by Anthony:
Neither group is required to respect the other's canon, though they'll probably try to avoid deliberate incompatibilities.

Yes we are required to respect each other's canon. The GT universe is quite 'canon' up until the point of divergence when Strephon was assasinated. If material from GT before that period exists, we use that and must conform to it.

This does allow an additional level of canon: there's stuff that's not canon, but won't be contradicted unless necessary. An example of this would be the Genii sector files.

HIWG is not canonical. Neither is CORE.

Correct. We consult this material when we can get access to it, but we are not bound to follow it.

Marc has the final call on all of it however. Nothing is done without his ultimate approval.

Hunter

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by MADDog:
I DON'T have a problem with people in power deciding what direction the game takes - What I'm saying is that by deliberately taking the view that some things are not worthy of consideration in the OTU, you are lowering the value of that setting.

To me canon is mostly a tool to help the publishers keep their story straight (and to allow fans to discuss the same things, which is always a good way to up the signal to noise ratio

). But it is also a matter of respecting what previous contributors to the official game universe have done. As far as I'm concerned, some things are not worthy of consideration in the OTU. You don't write an adventure that involves hyperspace radio, you don't give the Second Imperium TL 15, and you don't contradict what previous writers have established without thinking long and hard about it.

(Note that I'm not saying that previous published material is inviolable (I've advocated changing plenty of PPM myself over the years). But you don't change canon without knowing full well that you are changing it and making a deliberate and informed decision to do so.)


Hans

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by MADDog:
(I doubt Hunter decides to publish stuff NOT in the Imperium)

You would doubt wrong. We are already considering a short setting for the TA series set well outside of the Imperial boundaries. It has some issues that will need to be worked out before it *might* be approved.

I am also publishing Twilight, 2320AD, Legacy of the Aldenata using the Traveller rules. All of them being Alternate Traveller Universes. They are not set in the OTU setting at all.

Hunter

 

[hunter]

Bottom line canon is for publishers. For fans, canon lets everyone talk about the OTU setting from a common perspective. What you do with the material after it is published is up to you. My own campaigns diverge significantly from OTU canon.

Hunter

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by hunter:
Yes we are required to respect each other's canon. The GT universe is quite 'canon' up until the point of divergence when Strephon was assasinated. If material from GT before that period exists, we use that and must conform to it.

Hans spontaneously breaks into the Hallelujah Chorus while simultaneously doing a Dance of Joy.

<<Ahem>>

What I meant to say was, I'm very happy to hear that.


.
Hans
.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by hunter:
I am also publishing Twilight, 2320AD, Legacy of the Aldenata using the Traveller rules. All of them being Alternate Traveller Universes. They are not set in the OTU setting at all.

Hunter [/QB]

Mrr?! How on earth can Twilight 2000 and 2320AD be considered 'alternate traveller universes'? Surely it's not just because they're using the same rule set!

That seems like a very extreme definition of 'alternate' to me - it's like calling Babylon 5 and alternate Star Trek setting! Why not just say they're totally unrelated settings? (OK, I can see an internal historical link between T2000 and 2320AD, but not between 2320AD and Traveller).

Or am I missing some step in the logic here?

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
Mrr?! How on earth can Twilight 2000 and 2320AD be considered 'alternate traveller universes'? Surely it's not just because they're using the same rule set!

That seems like a very extreme definition of 'alternate' to me - it's like calling Babylon 5 and alternate Star Trek setting! Why not just say they're totally unrelated settings? (OK, I can see an internal historical link between T2000 and 2320AD, but not between 2320AD and Traveller).

Or am I missing some step in the logic here?

How is this any different from having multiple settings for say D&D or GURPS?

Hunter

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by hunter:
How is this any different from having multiple settings for say D&D or GURPS?

I have to side with Constantine on this one. (But then, I regard the background as the essence of Traveller while considering rules sets merely different tools for describing the setting. I'm aware that others are of a different opinion).

To be an alternate Traveller universe (IMO, that is), the T2000 universe would have to have Vilani and Aslan and Vargr (Oh my!). If 2300 AD had been about humans who had gotten star travel a century delayed and went out there to find a shattered First Imperium with Vargr prowling through the ruined cities on Vland and the Karun of the Rim ruling a small successor state from Muan Gwi, then the T2000/2300 AD universe would be an alternate Traveller universe even if you used Rolemaster rules to describe it. Contrariwise the Babylon 5 universe wouldn't (again, IMO) become an alternate Traveller universe just because you used T20 rules to describe it.


Hans

 

[mad13142000]

Be that as it may...
Saulweaver asked if there was anything about rimward from Sol - I answered on info I have from HIWG and Core...
If a publisher wants to print an item expanding on that, FINE. But that doesn't change that people who HAVE written Official stuff, who also do work on the side for Core and HIWG, wrote some info to tie together things not written WITH things Oficially written...
Once again - I didn't question the whole canon nonesense, I quoted stuff that exists - that Core and HIWG shall remain canon for me until otherwise said. I didn't say stuff about teleporting hyperspace communicators or disintegration pistols. He asked - I answered. If he wants to take a map from Core and put his own empire in it, FINE - But let's not be all wanting to toss out the maps, when more maps exist for "non-canon" sectors than exist for "canon" sectors...All because they come from BITS or HIWG instead of from FFE, D20, or Gurps.

BTW - Evil thing in Amderstun Sector is from G:T - Aliens Races 4 pg. 127 - "...present locus of the Dominion is a couple of sectors rimward of the Solomani Rim."

I don't make things up...
-MADDog

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by hunter:
How is this any different from having multiple settings for say D&D or GURPS?

I have to side with Constantine on this one. (But then, I regard the background as the essence of Traveller while considering rules sets merely different tools for describing the setting. I'm aware that others are of a different opinion).

To be an alternate Traveller universe (IMO, that is), the T2000 universe would have to have Vilani and Aslan and Vargr (Oh my!). If 2300 AD had been about humans who had gotten star travel a century delayed and went out there to find a shattered First Imperium with Vargr prowling through the ruined cities on Vland and the Karun of the Rim ruling a small successor state from Muan Gwi, then the T2000/2300 AD universe would be an alternate Traveller universe even if you used Rolemaster rules to describe it. Contrariwise the Babylon 5 universe wouldn't (again, IMO) become an alternate Traveller universe just because you used T20 rules to describe it.</font>[/QUOTE]A valid way to look at it but not one we share.

We feel Traveller IS more than the universe of the Imperium and its history. It is a game of science fiction adventure. The Imperium is its 'official' setting, but by no means the only possible setting.

Hunter

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

By Margaret's Embroidered Girdle! I'm in agreement with Hunter!!!

The universe is writ large, My Lords, and even the most developed adventure or campaign has room to be expounded on... millions of small details are a part of everyday existence on this planet, surely there is room enough in an entire universe for virtually anything can happen or be.

This balderdash about canon or non canon strikes me as very subjective, what? I have never in my "career" come across a game that goes strictly "By the Numbers". Such an occurance would imply a Referee with no imagination, which we all know is patently preposterous...

I freely admit that I have few kind words to say for anything that isn't CT or T20, I feel that the "pretenders to the throne" have bogged it down in a miasma of goofy rules and ill-conceived design systems, to say nothing for the nihilistic so-called "plot-lines" (the assassination and Rebellion, the virus (PU), and the Rise of Justin Timberlake, etc.) to the background.

Be that as it may, I see elements of these as a resource to augment a campaign. But then again, is that not the nature of the Beast, what?

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by hunter:
The setting material for T20 is OTU canon.

Hunter

Interesting. Been a while since I saw the MM quote on what was 'canon', which basically stopped at the beginning of megatraveller; it's certainly possible that the definition has been revised.

 

[ninthcouncil]

Originally posted by MADDog:
BTW - Evil thing in Amderstun Sector is from G:T - Aliens Races 4 pg. 127 - "...present locus of the Dominion is a couple of sectors rimward of the Solomani Rim."

Ah - those Very Bad Things! I'd competely forgotten about them - didn't like the idea much and didn't really register where they were based.

As you say, there's a Viruns-scale potential to really screw with things...

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Hunter - I'm not trying to argue with you here or anything, I'm just trying to get my head around what you said... So please bear that in mind when you read this

.

Originally posted by hunter:

How is this any different from having multiple settings for say D&D or GURPS?

Well, would you say that Dark Sun is an alternate Forgotten Realms or Ravenloft setting? They're all D&D2e, after all....

Or that GURPS Cabal is an alternate of GURPS Cyberworld? (might be getting obscure there. I'm racking my brains trying to think of default GURPS worldbooks that aren't licenses or PbG!). They both use GURPS rules, so by your logic they're alternate universes, right?

Even better, would you say that T20 is an alternate D&D setting? If not, why not? They use the same rules too don't they? (and they possibly intersect with eachother more than the D&D2e games I mentioned).

Maybe it's down to the word 'alternate'. To me at least, that implies that it's something that might have happened in the primary setting had history been a bit different (probably from 'alternate histories', 'alternate worlds', and 'alternate universes'). Yet clearly, this can't be the case for GURPS or D&D settings - they're totally distinct. Traditionally, haven't 2300AD and Traveller been totally distinct too?

We feel Traveller IS more than the universe of the Imperium and its history. It is a game of science fiction adventure. The Imperium is its 'official' setting, but by no means the only possible setting.

OK, you feel that Traveller is more than the Imperium Setting... but do SJG and FFE agree? If you start labelling other things as alternate Traveller settings, isn't it all going to become very confusing for the other companies? For example, (hypothetically, license restrictions notwithstanding) what if SJG decides that your precedent allows them to release Transhuman Space as an 'alternate Traveller universe'? It'd be using GURPS rules, just like GURPS Traveller, so technically they'd be correct to do so, wouldn't they?

As it is, they're going to be releasing Interstellar Wars eventually, and you're going to be releasing TNE:1248 hopefully, and those are both quite justifiably 'alternate Traveller universes' since they are both set in some variation of the default OTU. But if you release TNE:1248 alongside other wildly different 'alternate Traveller universes' I think it's going to get that much more difficult for people to see it for what it really is.

Agh. I'm really confused by this now...


How about this. Would you consider using the 'Traveller' label to denote the specific setting, and the 'T20' label to denote the ruleset you're using ? So Twilight 2000 and 2320AD would be labelled as 'alternate T20 settings' since they use the same rules, but they wouldn't be labelled as 'alternate Traveller settings' since that's a specific universe (one with Aslan, Vargr, far traders, ancients, spinward marches, Gateway, and all that)?

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by MADDog:
Be that as it may...
Saulweaver asked if there was anything about rimward from Sol - I answered on info I have from HIWG and Core...

He asked if there was any canonical information about the Solomani on the frontier. If someone specifies 'canonical' that usually means 'information presented in an officially published and sanctioned part of the Traveller universe'.

'canonical' doesn't mean 'something that's not been incorporated into the OTU but whose existence the publishers of Traveller may or may not be too fussed about'.

Unless that definition's changed since last time I encountered the expression, but I don't think it has.

Once again - I didn't question the whole canon nonesense, I quoted stuff that exists - that Core and HIWG shall remain canon for me until otherwise said.

The point is that what's canon for you isn't canon for everyone else. Hell, I don't even know what Core or HIWG are, but I don't care because I'm not missing out on any OTU canon. If I'm going off to hunt facts about the OTU and its history, then I'm only going to be interested in the OTU canon.

If he wants to take a map from Core and put his own empire in it, FINE - But let's not be all wanting to toss out the maps, when more maps exist for "non-canon" sectors than exist for "canon" sectors...

But there's no obligation to use those maps at all. Hell, I've got lots of Traveller world and subsector generation books, are those all suddenly useless to me because somebody somewhere has mapped the entire Imperium according to their own concepts already? Am I now obliged to agree that a given sector in CORE or HIWG may be marked as totally unexplored, when I want it to be a fully populated region in my own Traveller games? I don't think I am, somehow.

 

[mad13142000]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
Hell, I don't even know what Core or HIWG are, but I don't care because I'm not missing out on any OTU canon.

I rest my case on 'Canonistas'

-MADDog

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by MADDog:
I rest my case on 'Canonistas'

-MADDog

*snort* You saying I'm a 'canonista'?!

Just because I said that if I wanted to know anything about the background that's been officially published then I'd naturally only be interested in the official background?!

For my own purposes, I don't give a hoot about the official background. I regularly trample Traveller canon underfoot if it gets in the way. I'm only generally interested in discussing the shared universe that is the OTU, not in playing in it. As Hunter says, the OTU is a common ground that most people here know about. But just because someone says that so-and-so is canon, doesn't mean I'm obliged to stick to it in a game I run. It's useful to know, yes - but I'm not bound by some agreement to use it.

Let me put it this way. If you wanted to know about something that happened to Captain Kirk in his youth, what would you hold as more 'correct' - some fiction that a fan wrote when they were in high school, or something from the official background?

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by hunter:
The setting material for T20 is OTU canon.

Hunter

Interesting. Been a while since I saw the MM quote on what was 'canon', which basically stopped at the beginning of megatraveller; it's certainly possible that the definition has been revised. </font>[/QUOTE]I'll tell you what Marc told me. Remember the old JG stuff, or most of the old non-GDW produced material. It was decanonized right? Well to be decanonized it must have been canon at one time.

While it is possible that the T20 setting materials might be decanonized at some point, that will only happen if Marc doesn't like what we've done or he feels it significantly deviates from previously published canon material. Considering that Marc must approve everything that it published under the Traveller name these days, that pretty much assures that he likes (or at least approves of) the material. Not to mention the fact he has specifically to me he likes what we are doing.

So basically, unless at some point in the future Marc elects to 'decanonize' the material, it IS canon.

In case your curious, this information is as recent as today when I spoke with him and reconfirmed it.

Hunter

 

[Liam Devlin]

...Thanks fer the update boss !!!!<looks fondly at all the stuff in Library with logo traveller on it [from CT-T20], smiles.. And its all Good..<smiles>.