Some interesting figures

[aramis]

I've been running some numbers, using pure cargo designs, near-minimum crewing, single PLas turret...

I've found the following "break-evens" for carrying cargo and mail

Price   TL Tons	JD  MD  PP  Cmp  SR   Cgo  HP  MP  LP  Cr/T
204.565  9  593  1   1   1   1    3   451   0   0   0  1000
 61.54  13  188  1   1   1   1    2   125   0   0   0   999
 43.29  15  138  1   1   1   1    2    84   0   0   0   997

These were done up using Double Occupancy, but installing only whole staterooms. I divided the costs to operate for a month (2 jumps fuel, 1 pp fuel, salaries, payments, life support) by the "effective tons of cargo" (ECT, or Effective Cargo Tons) counting mail at 5tons per ton. (Note that High Passages count at "10 Tons", Mids at "8 tons", and Lows at 1 Ton to preserve the rates of cost... just for the rest of the methodology, )

So these levels require that the ship be full to actually break even while on mortgage.

The 400 Ton Bk2 design can make a profit as a pure cargo J1 1G design, without double occupancy with a custom hull. break-even price is 948/ECT, counting the mail as 5 tons. It's bloody tight margins.

Due to the bridge minimum and the computer not scaling by size, plus the crew formulae, bigger ships have bigger margins (and lower costs per ECT).

Due to similarities, I expect similar numbers for T20 designs.

Just thought I'd share...

Oh, and 100 & 200 ton cargo hauler data:

Price   TL Tons	JD  MD  PP  Cmp  SR   Cgo  HP  MP  LP  Cr/T
 70.8    9  200  1   1   1   1    2   134   0   0   0  1082
 37.3    9  100  1   1   1   1    2    52   0   0   0  1250

 

[BetterThanLife]

Not Canon, but close. Commercial ships aren't allowed to use double occupancy for crew. Mail is only carried on Subsidized ships so doesn't have a mortgage in the first place. Otherwise the numbers look good.

I find that high passage works out at KCr2/ton, mid passage at KCr1.5/ton and low passage at KCr1.8 per ton. (When used, otherwise they are just wasted tonnage.)

A Type A and a Type R do make their mortgages (Provided the Type-R isn't subsidized and actually has a mortgage.) under carriage rates as long as they can travel between 80 and 90% full. (How much margin and how full depends on which rule system you are using.) As long as your Jump-1 merchant is actually a merchant and not an attempt at a Q-Ship most Jump-1 designs can make a profit on a mortgage at carriage rates, however the Type R is the about largest ship that can routinely travel full enough to do so, anything much bigger will be traveling too empty to make its mortgage or be more restricted to where it can operate. Also any gunners carried should be dual function crew members. (Medic/gunner, Steward/gunner being typically your best choices.)

Missile armament is actually cheaper than lasers for Merchants. (1 missile turret, 1 sand turret might be a good mix.) Plasma and Fusion Turrets are more expensive than lasers and have very limited range so cost effectiveness for a merchant is definitely questionable. (As you arm a Merchant remember that you are paying for the weapon, the turret, the tonnage for the turret, the power for the turret and the tonnage for the additional PP and additional PP fuel. This is why Missiles (for a merchant) are actually cheaper. I don't remember the break even point but it is over 20 missiles per month per turret. (Though I think when you get to TL15 it is around 12 missiles per month per turret.)

 

[aramis]

I didn't use the standard hulls. These are HG designs.

The question of DO for merchant crews is iffy; it's neither specifically allowed nor disallowed under CT. So in the interests of pushing the envelope...

The interesting part comes when one looks at J2 and up... it's non-linear. J2 ranges from twice to 3x the cost per ton, even allowing mail to non-subsidies. J3 is far wider.

 

[hunter]

Not Canon, but close. Commercial ships aren't allowed to use double occupancy for crew. Mail is only carried on Subsidized ships so doesn't have a mortgage in the first place. Otherwise the numbers look good.

Isn't it hot bunking that isn't allowed on commercial ships (ie: more than 2 per stateroom) but is allowed on military ships?

Hmm just check my Book 2 and yes it does state that commercial ships must have one stateroom per member of the crew...

I swear this changed in later versions.

 

[BetterThanLife]

I didn't use the standard hulls. These are HG designs.

The Free Trader and Fat Trader, redesigned under HG still produce a profit. (Which is effectively what the T20 versions of these ships are.) Though their profit margin tends to be lower under T20 and HG.

The question of DO for merchant crews is iffy; it's neither specifically allowed nor disallowed under CT. So in the interests of pushing the envelope...

Actually on page 14 of LBB2, under staterooms it states, "A commercial ship must have one stateroom for each member of the crew." I was under the impression that a Merchant ship was, by definition, a Commercial Ship. (MT and T20 have the same rule.)

The interesting part comes when one looks at J2 and up... it's non-linear. J2 ranges from twice to 4x the cost per ton, even allowing mail to non-subsidies.

If you can build one that you can actually pay the mortgage and turn a profit at carriage rates under a per jump model I would love to see it. (regardless of size.)

 

[BetterThanLife]

Isn't it hot bunking that isn't allowed on commercial ships (ie: more than 2 per stateroom) but is allowed on military ships?

Hmm just check my Book 2 and yes it does state that commercial ships must have one stateroom per member of the crew...

I swear this changed in later versions.

Hot bunking is mentioned in LBB5 for small craft staterooms, not full staterooms. T20 does allow you to overstress the lifesupport by assigning more than two in a stateroom (and has rules for it) but it is the first time I have seen it in Traveller.

 

[hunter]

Hot bunking is mentioned in LBB5 for small craft staterooms, not full staterooms. T20 does allow you to overstress the lifesupport by assigning more than two in a stateroom (and has rules for it) but it is the first time I have seen it in Traveller.

Hehe I know what the T20 rules say

I designed it that way because it makes a lot more sense. Maybe I just think I remember seeing it elsewhere in Traveller...damn Alzheimer's...

 

[BetterThanLife]

BTW you can't double bunk your crews on a Commercial ship, but you can hire your crew so that you assign one crew member to two functions. (Though I don't recommend it for all positions.) Your expenses go down as your salary and life support requirements both go down. However on most ships, life support, fuel and crew salary is a minor percentage compared to Mortgage payment. Your top three expenses are generally Mortgage, set aside for mortgage payment during annual maintenance, and annual maintenance costs. (though I don't count passenger lifesupport as an expense, I subtract their expense from their passage price off the top, so I don't have to worry about it for calculation purposes. (Which is where I came up with my High/Mid/Low rate per ton numbers.)

 

[BetterThanLife]

Hehe I know what the T20 rules say

I designed it that way because it makes a lot more sense. Maybe I just think I remember seeing it elsewhere in Traveller...damn Alzheimer's...

ROFLMAO!

It could be in TNE or T4. TNE seriously increased required crew size, so it might have allowed it. It has been a long time since I read the TNE rules, and I was so unimpressed by them I never got more than the basic rules and can't even find my copy now. I actually bought the T20 rules before I knew T4 existed and never bought any T4 material.

 

[Chaos]

I have always thought that operating costs are too high for most ships to be economically viable with cargo transport alone. Sure, there are subsidized ships, but IIRC (using the appropriate features of the T20 ship design spreadsheet) except for the Type A and Type A2 (maybe Type S as well), all ships needed more than Cr1000 per dton of cargo space to be break even, even if carrying full passenger complements.

And you´ll have to remember, you don´t just want to break even and repay your mortgage, you also want to make a profit.

Take, for example, the Type A, which costs about MCr50 in T20, if new. That means you make a MCr10 downpayment.
Assuming you have MCr10 that you don´t know what to do with, and are torn between giving it to the bank for investment, or using it as a downpayment for a Type A, you face the following choice:

If the bank uses you money as part of a mortgage for a Type A, it gives out MCr40 and receives MCr104 (260% of MCr40) over the next 40 years. Ignoring compound interest, that´s an interest rate of 4%. I cannot recall the formula for breaking this down considering compound interest, but let´s say the real rate is 3%.
So, if you are a passably good negotiator (and an investment of MCr10 is quite the argument in a negotiation), let´s say you can persuade the bank to give you a 2.5% interest rate for the money they then use to give out a mortgage. Let´s ignore for the moment that there are probably more profitable investment opportunities out there.

So, if you think of make a downpayment towards owning a Type A instead, it will have to earn you at least 2.5% interest on your money. 2.5% of MCr10 is KCr250 - over and above what you pay yourself as compensation for your own work on board (but let´s assume that your own salary is figured into the break-even point already).
For simplification let´s say the Type A has 100 dtons for cargo space and makes 25 jumps a year. That would mean that, per dton of cargo space, your ship would need to make at least Cr100 of profits - on average - in order for you to have made a good choice going for the Type A instead of entrusting your money to the bank.

 

[aramis]

Bk2:
3000Td J2, Drives jX mQ pX, Model 1bis, 10SR, 2068Td cargo, no mail, no weapons, Pilot, Nav, Medic, 7 Engr. 780MCr. If full with cargo, it makes 224600 profit per month... 946Cr/ECT (assumes mortgage.)

(Note that a 2000Td Bk2 i come up with 1143Cr/ECT)

Maximum tonnage available at a PopA world, no TL adjustment
Major 7-12 lots at 10-60Td each =70-720Td
Minor 8-13 lots at 5-30Td Ea=40-390Td
Incidental 1-6 at 1-6 each=1-36Td


On to other things
Here's a list of the HG designs (Including mail; IMTU, I allow mail contracts for non-subbies)

Price  TL  Tons  JD  MD  PP  Cmp SR   Cgo  HP  MP  LP   Cr/T
582.3  15   800   6   1   6   6   5   104   0   1   0   11601
668.3  14   800   5   1   5   5   5   170   0   0   0    8548
556.8  13   800   4   1   4   4   4   287   0   0   0    4389
544.8  12   800   3   1   3   B   4   377   0   0   0    3225
402.8  11   800   2   1   2   A   4   498   0   0   0    1815
272.3   9   800   1   1   1   1   3   622   0   0   0     972
516.3  15   700   6   1   6   6   4    89   0   0   0   12068
590.3  14   700   5   1   5   5   4   147   0   0   0    8580
590.3  14   700   5   1   5   5   4   147   0   0   0    8580
491.3  13   700   4   1   4   4   4   246   0   0   0    4473
479.3  12   700   3   1   3   B   4   325   0   0   0    3270
353.3  11   700   2   1   2   A   4   431   0   0   0    1833
238.8   9   700   1   1   1   1   3   540   0   0   0     980
450.8  15   600   6   1   6   6   4    70   0   0   0   12721
512.8  14   600   5   1   5   5   4   120   0   0   0    8894
413.8  12   600   3   1   3   B   4   273   0   0   0    3322
303.3  11   600   2   1   2   A   3   368   0   0   0    1828
205.3   9   600   1   1   1   1   3   458   0   0   0     991
385.3  15   500   6   1   6   6   4    51   0   0   0   13760
435.3  14   500   5   1   5   5   4    93   0   0   0    9335
360.3  13   500   4   1   4   4   4   164   0   0   0    4741
348.3  12   500   3   1   3   B   4   221   0   0   0    3407
253.8  11   500   2   1   2   A   3   301   0   0   0    1855
171.8   9   500   1   1   1   1   3   376   0   0   0    1006
319.3  15   400   6   1   6   6   3    36   0   0   0   14383
357.8  14   400   5   1   5   5   4    66   0   0   0   10083
294.3  13   400   4   1   4   4   3   127   0   0   0    4839
282.3  12   400   3   1   3   B   3   173   0   0   0    3448
204.3  11   400   2   1   2   A   3   234   0   0   0    1897
138.3   9   400   1   1   1   1   3   294   0   0   0    1022
253.8  15   300   6   1   6   6   3    17   0   0   0   17229
279.8  14   300   5   1   5   5   3    43   0   0   0   10729
228.8  13   300   4   1   4   4   3    86   0   0   0    5226
216.8  12   300   3   1   3   B   3   121   0   0   0    3640
154.8  11   300   2   1   2   A   3   167   0   0   0    1955
104.8   9   300   1   1   1   1   3   212   0   0   0    1059
187.8  15   200   6   1   6   6   2     2   0   0   0  231375
201.8  14   200   5   1   5   5   2    20   0   0   0   12103
162.8  13   200   4   1   4   4   2    49   0   0   0    5648
150.8  12   200   3   1   3   B   2    73   0   0   0    3809
104.8  11   200   2   1   2   A   2   104   0   0   0    1999
 70.8   9   200   1   1   1   1   2   134   0   0   0    1082
 97.3  13   100   4   1   4   4   2     8   0   0   0    8240
 85.3  12   100   3   1   3   B   2    21   0   0   0    4890
 55.3  11   100   2   1   2   A   2    37   0   0   0    2329
 37.3   9   100   1   1   1   1   2    52   0   0   0    1250

 

[BetterThanLife]

I have always thought that operating costs are too high for most ships to be economically viable with cargo transport alone. Sure, there are subsidized ships, but IIRC (using the appropriate features of the T20 ship design spreadsheet) except for the Type A and Type A2 (maybe Type S as well), all ships needed more than Cr1000 per dton of cargo space to be break even, even if carrying full passenger complements.

Type-A2 (and Type-S) if bought under standard rules with a mortgage can not make a profit at carriage rates. The shortfall, as I recall, is more than 25% of your mortgage payment per month. In fact I have yet to be able to design a Merchant ship with a jump ability of more than 1 that can make its mortgage payments (much less all of its expenses) at carriage rates. That is traveling full. Now a Far Trader that jumps between high pop worlds which have no more than a TL difference of 2 and exist 2 parsecs apart, and carries priority cargo (which doesn't exist in CT or MT) can make its expenses, but on most sector maps that is a shuttle mission between two worlds and is not really suitable for adventuring or an RPG.

 

[aramis]

It's not like the A2 can't make money with speculation. (Which is no more a risk that mortgages on ships in the first place, methinks.) Even under Bk7 T&C, it still is able to extract the needed 1850/ECT by use of broker and trader skills.
(It's actually easier to do under Bk7 solely due to far more lots, and the ability to check using trader prior to sale. It's easiest under T20, due to a slightly higher average value per ton than Bk2, more lots for sale than Bk2, and the ability to apply broker on purchase, not just sale..)

Now, if one COULD fill a 3000Td ship's cavernous 2068 Td Hold, it turn a profit even with a mortgage.

In any case, one can make enough using mixed speculation+hauling to buy out one's A or non-subby R, and then keep working it for a couple more big scores (easier with higher levels of trader and broker), and buy outright the A2. ALso, with an A2, that gives 3x the worlds to pick from, on average, over a J1, so speculation becomes FAR safer. An A3 (hypothetical J3 200Td) would have only twice as many as an A2, but 6x as many as a type 1.

A competent broker is worth it.

I strongly suspect the math was worked out specifically to make speculation dominant for J2/J3 ships.

 

[flykiller]

... ships needed more than Cr1000 per dton of cargo space to be break even ... you also want to make a profit.

about 16,000 Cr / dton depending, actually. which is easy to get for some categories of goods, but awake passengers are right out.

 

[atpollard]

Has anyone ever tried a 150 dTon freighter? I think that it could be run by a crew of 1 (Pilot/Engineer) since most of the required crew positions in CT appear at 200+ dTons.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Has anyone ever tried a 150 dTon freighter? I think that it could be run by a crew of 1 (Pilot/Engineer) since most of the required crew positions in CT appear at 200+ dTons.

The issue is that sub 200 ton freighters give up too large a percentage in fixed size items. (The bridge being the big one.)

 

[far-trader]

...The interesting part comes when one looks at J2 and up... it's non-linear. J2 ranges from twice to 3x the cost per ton, even allowing mail to non-subsidies. J3 is far wider.

If you can build one that you can actually pay the mortgage and turn a profit at carriage rates under a per jump model I would love to see it. (regardless of size.)

Curse you BTL Have you not seen mine after all this time? I was sure you had seen them and had some minor nitpicks with them (something about my choice of the application of the multiple crew positions rules).

J2: The smallest I can get to break even (or a little more) is 400T in typical situations. Add a couple of good speculative trades now and again and you can turn a nice profit. You have to choose your design and route carefully though, and take advantage of a couple old trader tricks.

J3: I can't recall if I succeeded but seem to remember it being a very tough nut to crack. I might have given up finding the magic numbers for it short of subsidies and mail.

J4: (And more) I'm sure can't be done, but then it doesn't need to be. In fact I'm not sure there'd be J3 trade in small enough volumes to support small ship trade. It'd be a bit like seeing a small sailing ship today transporting a couple barrels of crude oil overseas They could do it but what's the point.

I guess I'll have to hunt up the designs now. I did a quick search but while the new site searches quick it lacks the preciseness of the old. I'll have to wade through many pages of duplicated posts I'll try to find it later.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Curse you BTL Have you not seen mine after all this time? I was sure you had seen them and had some minor nitpicks with them (something about my choice of the application of the multiple crew positions rules).

J2: The smallest I can get to break even (or a little more) is 400T in typical situations. Add a couple of good speculative trades now and again and you can turn a nice profit. You have to choose your design and route carefully though, and take advantage of a couple old trader tricks.

Not that I recall. But I have been here a while and like Hunter Old timers Disease might be catching up with me. I do recall picking some nits with you and drop tanks on Merchant ships though.

Actually I was surprised by Aramis' 3000 ton ship that, in theory, could actually make a profit, if you could fill the hold.

 

[aramis]

Under MT, ISTR that one can do J2 with about 200-250Td... but I'm not about to fight through an MT design today. (I had errands to run... and then instruments to practice...)

 

[far-trader]

Now you got me scratching my head

I can't recall making an argument for drop tanks on a merchie, but it's possible I guess. I just don't see it being something I'd argue for instead of against. Maybe somebody asked if it were possible (even if inadvisable) so I offered some arguments to make it doable for their TU?

Hmm, hang on a tic, maybe it was my very unorthadox Gazelle Trader conversion. That did use the drop tanks for all kinds of dangerous ideas. Not just fuel but cargo and even passengers :file_23:

Definitely not a typical design :file_22: