Spacecraft Detection

[rgrove0172]

In both the CT and MT2300 books it mentions detection as a function of sensors. The presence of a ship is however a given in combat. The rules clearly state that the sensors are used to lock on for weapons use or gather information about a target, there is no provision for detection. There is even a blurb in the 2300AD book reporting the ease of detecting a ship in space due to its heat signature and its more or less assumed.

So why all the rules regarding detection? Like the sensor upgrade modifiers for detection etc.

Just where would detection take place in a game? Surely not in combat, its assumed to already have happened. The sensor chart on page 144 gives varying degrees of information but nothing about how to merely "Find" a target.

?

 

[McPerth]

I guess the diference is among detecting and identifying. You can detect a ship wuite far (th black globes), but you're not sure about what you have detected, and so unable (and unwiling) to fire upon it. First you have to identify it (Sensors scan) and pinpoint it.

Never forget the possibility to fire a friendly (or neutral) ship, something obviated in games, as you're sure about what order of battle is in the combat, but quite important in reality (both, game reality and RW), hence the importance of the sensors to identify and pinpoint the target (changing the black globe for the ship in question).

I'd compare it to sub warfare in RW, where the submariners say there are two kinds of things in the sea, sub and targets, but no sub skipper would fire blindly, without first identify the target. It may have several blips on the sonar (black globes), but until it's sure about what is each one, it's unlikely to fire any of them, as they can as well be neutral freighters, or even friendly ships, as the sub is unlikely to know exactly where the friendly sjhips are, due to the limits water impose in communications.

And just asking them to identify is not an option, as if they are unfriendly, you'd given up your position and itentity.

 

[rgrove0172]

Ok, so are all ships in Traveller 2300 combat considered black globes, as in the old Star Cruiser, until a sensor lock is achieved? Since its required every turn, it sounds silly but, do they return to this status if you fail to lock?

So when you encounter a ship, you determine range based on when you first noticed the "globe", which should be Distant probably every time unless something funny is going on (Shielded by a plant, powerplant off line etc.) then you begin the process of gaining information and achieving a sensor lock to identify it.

I assume you use the various sensors from the CT page 144 for this (EW, Visual, Thermal, Radar etc.) with the ranges given for the military variety (5 and 7 bands I believe) as all civilian sensor equipment is given a range of 0, or under 300,000km. Which bring up the question if your supposed to convert that table to the new ranges or not.

 

[McPerth]

Well. I was talking about the basic T2300 ship combat system, not about MgT2300. I cannot tell about it, as I have still no acess to it (as told in another thread, I've been told its out of print, what seems not to be exact).

 

[rgrove0172]

Uggh... sorry, no disprespect intended. Im beginning to think MT2300 is just one big screw up.

But just for giggles, all ships in Star Cruiser began the game a black globe sure, but when did they become a black globe?

If you were roleplaying your player's space travel, at what point do you announce they have a contact? When does that black globe appear?

 

[McPerth]

Uggh... sorry, no disprespect intended. Im beginning to think MT2300 is just one big screw up.

No offense taken, don't worry. I just wanted to make sure we talked about the same set of rules, so that we can understand each other.

But just for giggles, all ships in Star Cruiser began the game a black globe sure, but when did they become a black globe?

IMHO they are detected as black globes, and don't return to this status unless something makes the detecting crew doubt about which blip is waht (e.g. if a fighter, or other small ship, lauches drones/missiles and the referee rules they can doubt which one is the craft and which ones the drones/missiles)

If you were roleplaying your player's space travel, at what point do you announce they have a contact? When does that black globe appear?

I'd anounce the contact at the moment they can detect it (as per Lone Wolf/TBM when the gravitonic sensors detect the warping), but just that: a contact, without further details.

As they can have better resoution (usually as any side closes range) they could have more information (fusión PP, aproximate size if the sensors can tell that, etc), and by sensor rules to identify it.

Then, again as per sensor rules, to pinpoint it enough to have a fire solution and target it with its weapons (if in range), be either the ship itself, drones or missiles (that, as I understand them, may be used as drones if they are not detonated).

 

[rgrove0172]

As I recall gravitic sensors could pick up a stutterwarp drive at something like 150AU, couldnt they?

 

[McPerth]

As I recall gravitic sensors could pick up a stutterwarp drive at something like 150AU, couldnt they?

ITTR that yes, but I don't have now the information handy

 

[shaunhilburn]

Ok, so are all ships in Traveller 2300 combat considered black globes, as in the old Star Cruiser, until a sensor lock is achieved?

Yes. A bogey (unidentified sensor contact) remains so until a successful detection attempt.

Since its required every turn, it sounds silly but,

An attempt is not required, but only one attempt can be made per bogey per turn

do they return to this status if you fail to lock?

They remain bogey/black globe until detected. In Star Cruiser, detection = lock. This is for playability, in real life detection <> lock.

 

[shaunhilburn]

If you were roleplaying your player's space travel, at what point do you announce they have a contact? When does that black globe appear?

All vessels are initially represented as bogeys. They have this status when they are placed on the board. A bogey's presence is automatically known, since it's impossible to completely mask his emissions.

 

[rgrove0172]

Uggh again - Guess Im not making this clear at all. Im playing TRAVELLER 2300, not Star Cruiser. The new Mongoose version. There is no board, range bands instead etc. I was completely comfortable with Star Cruiser and Classic 2300 but the conversion to Traveller's system has become a real mess.

 

[shaunhilburn]

I was completely comfortable with Star Cruiser and Classic 2300 but the conversion to Traveller's system has become a real mess.

I started having misgivings about MT2300 when I saw the figures quoted back in the "Powered Landing" thread. Sheesh.

 

[rgrove0172]

So is that the consensus? The book is a mess, ripe with errors and not worth a consideration? Ive been pecking away at it for weeks now and finding very few kind words about it and frankly, very few that are familiar enough with it to even lend a hand.

Was the classic 2300 rules set so superior as to eliminate this new Traveller version from a try? Heck, I cant get past the missing rules sections and data bungles to even try out our first session.

 

[SpaceBadger]

I have a lot of good words for the Mongoose 2300AD. Colin Dunn did a very good rewrite and reorganization of the previous 2300AD rules. More info is included in core rules, there are deckplans for ships and maps for colony worlds, etc. I haven't built any ships or conducted combat yet, so can't address your concerns there.

 

[BytePro]

Have you tried PMing Collin Dunn - especially on the Mongoose forums?

BTW: CT is used for Classic Traveller, while MgT (or MGT) is used for Mongoose Traveller. MT is used for MegaTraveller.

MgT2300 being dependent on MgT Core (and apparently Vehicles and HG supplements work with it) - maybe you would have better luck asking certain questions in the MgT forums.

[FYI: In CT LBB1-3, the computer with target program and sensors is used for weapons - with select programs allow not only a better chance to hit (locking function) but also a 2 in 6 chance of hitting a designated area of a target. In CT, being explicitly 'space opera' and not hard sci-fi, there is no definition of how M-Drives work nor the actual type nor output of 'fusion' in its PPs (heck, IIRC, fusion isn't even mentioned till HG) - its almost pure 'fantasy'. LBB2 has explicit mechanics (half and eighth ranges) for 'ships...maintaining complete silence'. So, in CT LBB2, a ship could hide in orbit to within a bit over 18,000 km (~1/10,000th an AU) of a commercial ship. Once detected ships can be tracked out to 3 light seconds, or a bit under 1,000,000 km (6/1000th AU). All other detection is explicitly a Navigation skill check. Weapon ranges are ignored till LBB5 (HG) which is very fast and loose with its ranges - short and long - and a JTAS missile supplement (with all sorts of errata - to the point of being re-written, IIRC).]

 

[rgrove0172]

I have a lot of good words for the Mongoose 2300AD. Colin Dunn did a very good rewrite and reorganization of the previous 2300AD rules. More info is included in core rules, there are deckplans for ships and maps for colony worlds, etc. I haven't built any ships or conducted combat yet, so can't address your concerns there.

I would agree there is some great work in there..on the setting. Really really good stuff but the rules translation is giving me some fits, over and above the accidental d20 references, and then traveller references that are supposed to be changed but still appear in the text. (thrust for example)

 

[rgrove0172]

Bytepro, can you help me out with some of those acronyms?

never mind, gottem

 

[SpaceBadger]

If you do FaceBook, there is a 2300AD group in which Colin posts almost daily.

 

[BytePro]

Bytepro, can you help me out with some of those acronyms?

never mind, gottem

Sorry - that was foolish of me - wasn't trying to be cryptic. Hope you found the (fairly recent) thread on here that covers common abbreviations.

 

[McPerth]

Sorry - that was foolish of me - wasn't trying to be cryptic. Hope you found the (fairly recent) thread on here that covers common abbreviations.

It's sticked in the Lone Star fórum: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=27482