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SS Carrion

I felt the 1/2 fuel option deserved its own reply Dan, my pardon for making this a seperate post--not trying to drum up me numbers here!

I've been pondering the half-fuel option since it came out but still haven't decided. I like it but want to see it implemented IMTU with some balance. One thing I've been thinking is making it a military practice, allowed by the use of naval drives and crew. Kind of harkening back to CT Book 2 before fuel purifiers were allowed on ships.

In effect anyone could make a half-fuel jump but it would impose a +2 on the misjump check. This practice would be illegal for commercial traffic and inadvisable for private ships. Imperial military ships (including Scouts) would be allowed a -2 on all misjump checks (like the old Naval drives mod). So the Navy and Scouts could use unrefined fuel, or drop tanks, or half-fuel jumps, each without a chance of misjump or in combination with increased chance of misjump, by multiplying rather than adding. So using two of the above would be a +4 on the check and using three would be a +8. The diameter effects would still be just added.

I'm not sure if there should be a TL requirement or not but am tempted to make it TL13+ and of course IMTU drop tanks are the old TL12+ from HG(1st.ed.) rather than T20's TL15.


Good ideas on the IMTU fixes!

Me personally, [as far as MTU runs], fuel is cheaper than the starship of course. I can see vessels of a certain TL taking advantage of this, and those below it unable to. Makes a certain amount of sense with the OTU scaled down/ Hard Times era -TNE vessels that made it through the Virus Dark Times..

Let's face it, a TL-F built Beowulf-class Free Trader, 200dton, still does J-1/1G as opposed to a TL-9 or TL-A version of same ship with same performance.

I agree, TL-D is a good place for the cut off, with the improved fusion powerplants that come in genrating 1EP per ton of PP.

The differences can be made up with either more passenger or cargo space. I favor the latter, as it is a freighter, and while passengers sweeten the pot, they aren't the mainstay of most small freighter starships.

Now T20 has also in its technological rules, what I like to call the "three TL rule of thumb", meaning Go up or back three levels.
A progression of -10% in size per TL maxes out at 3x TL's above the products' introduction.
And price drops at -10%, -50%, and then -90% three TL's upwards.

Thus A TL-9 PP built at TL-C is 30% smaller, and 90% cheaper than one built at TL-9. So a TL-A manufacturer trying to duplicate the TL-D PP is going to make a bigger one in reverse, lacking some of the things they'd need to make a smaller one..

This could be my wee gearheaded way to explain the retro-verse engineering that occurred and why the "newer" era ships were rough functional, "no frills" or "whistles".
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Liam, a couple of questions about your conversion, if I may.

Why have you used an 89EP power plant?

You don't have to power the jump drive and the maneuver drive at the same time.

Why do you have the jump drive and the maneuver drive using 40EPs?

Going by the book each requires 24EP.
Sigg!

The power EP level is required for moving a maximum payload of 1400dtn payload + the 600dtn ship, [hence the larger bridge rated for a 2ktn ship].

And No, you don't have to power both at same time, so there would be a power overage in manuevering, allowing for some agility...But you have to be able to power ALL the required systems, and in my way of engineering, having the power on hand is better than not having it all.

I design ships with PP's to do all of their systems. The OTU's sometimes underpowered vessels..uh uh. For something designed like this, my only RW comparison is an ocean going tug, which is over powered for its size for the same purposes.

Now if I made the PP 40EP/dtons smaller, just powering the computer [2EP], weapons [9EP], and M-drives [40EP as if she were a 2kton ship], she couldn't take much damage to cripple her from making jump. And with NO armor, this was a trade off.

I concede the amount is "extra", Sigg, no problems there. But I was looking towards her ability to haul her max load into jump [as if she were a 2Kton ship].

Ship's agility at maximum payload is zero. What I did not figure out, and the GM who uses this design will have to, is of the vessel is hauling less than 750-1400dtns what sort of agility she'll have with the power overage taking in the combined total--which the GM in his/her adventure ought to have figured out ahead of time.

Hope that helps Sigg. TY for the questions, I'd forgotten to notate why she had such a huge PP!
 
A 2000t ship with these drives only needs 20 EP to make jump 1 or maneuver 1 - have you been powering that 2000t ship to maneuver 4/jump 4 by any chance?
 
Ahh, hang on a mo.

I've just spotted it.

You've put the drives of a 1000t ship in a 600t hull.

With drop tanks you unloaded ship could do jump 6.

As it is the maneuver drive can shift the unloaded ship at 6G
 
Hmmm..

2kton ships need (2x 1ktn 20units) drives = 40 units.

600dtn ships need 12 units of drives...

Aha..methinks me found the villain! TY Sigg!
 
You're most welcome Sir


It's a funny thing the way drives work to shift things above their hull size.

As you say, a 600t ship needs 12 units of drives - but it is jump 4, so in total that's 30t and 24 EP; the maneuver drive at 4G needs 66t and 24 EP.

Now put those same drives in a 1200t ship and they can only achieve jump 1 and maneuver 2.

A 2000t ship needs 40t of jump drive to make jump 1, and 40t of maneuver drive to make 1G.

So the T20 tug will need a 40t jump drive - rated to jump 4 for 600t due to TL despite the fact that, tonnage wise, it could make jump 5 - to allow it to jump with 1400t in tow. Jump 4 for the 600t ship uses 24 EP, yet jump 1 for the 2000t combo only needs 20 EP.
The 66t of maneuver drive will move the 600t ship at 6G, and the combo at 1G.
 
SS Carrion
[VERSION 2]

Charon-class Salvage Ship
Class: Starship, type
EP Output: 59 (27 excess)
Tech Level: 13
Battery 1: 2x triple Pulse lasers TL-D, +4USP, damage 4d10, range 45,000km.
Battery 2: 2x triple Missiles, +4USP, damage (varies by missile), Range: 90,000km.
Battery 3: 2x Triple sandcasters, +6USP defensively.
Agility: 4 (Unloaded +24EP) Initiative: +4
Size: Medium (600 tons)
Streamlining: Streamlined
AC: 14
AR: 0
SI: 175
Jump Range: 1 x Jump-4* Acceleration: 4-G*
Fuel: 132 tons** Duration: 4 weeks
Repulsors: 0 Nuclear Dampers: 0 Meson Screens: 0 Black Globes: 0
Crew: 20 (1x CPT, 1x XO, 1x Pilot, 1x Astrogator, 1x Sensors/Comms, 4 x Engineers, 1x Steward/ Medical; 6x Gunners, 4x FLT crew [tugs].
Staterooms: 20 Small Cabins: 0 Bunks: 0 Couches: 0 Low Berths: 20
Main Computer: Model/4 Sensor Range: Long (Model/4) Comm. Range: Long (Model/4)
Cargo Space: 47.4dtons
Cost: MCr381.0272 (new)
Atmospheric Speeds: NoE = 1400kph Cruising = 4200kph Maximum = 5600kph*
Other Equipment: 2x 20-ton tugs, with 2x internal hangars, fuel scoops, fuel purification unit, external streamlined grapples. 1x Med bay, 6x Autodocs, 2 machine shops, 6dtons missile magazines, and six airlocks installed.
TAS Form 3.1 (Condensed) Ship’s Data (Commercial)

Design Specifications
Installed Components Tonnage Cost (Mcr) EP Notes
600-ton Hull Streamlined +600 66 - -
Bridge*** -40 2.2 -
Computer -3.2 7.1 -2 Model/4
Flight Avionics (-1.2) (2.7) - Model/3
Sensors (-1.2) (2.4) - Model/4
Communications (-0.8) (2) - Model/4
Jump Drive 4 -30 120 -24 -
Jump Fuel* -120** 0 - -
Maneuver Drive 4 -66 33 -24 -
TL-D Power Plant -59 177 +59 -
Power Plant Fuel* -12 - - -
6 Hard Points - 0.6 - -
Triple Pulse lasers x2 -6 3 -6 +1USP for TL
Triple Sandcasters x2 -6 1.5 - +2USP for TL
Triple Missiles x 2 -6 4.5 - +1USP for TL
Missile Magazine -6 0.6 - +120 ready msls
Staterooms (20) -84 10 - -
Low Berths (20) -10 1 - -
2x 20-ton Tugs 0 20.684 - -
Airlocks x 6 -18 0.03
Engineering machine shop -6 1 -
Electronics machine shop -6 1 -
Med Bay x1 -8 1 -
Autodocs x 6 -12 60 - TL-D

Launch Hangers (2) -44 0.04 - -
Fuel Purification Plant-D -5 0.03 - -
Cargo Hold -55.4 - - -
Totals Mcr 476.284 (Mcr381.0272 with 20% standard design discount)

· * Rated at J-4/4G at 600dtons, down to J-1/1G carrying +1400dtons.
· **Uses ½ jump fuel optional rule, THB page 265.
· *** Bridge & avionics sized by THB Design table page 258 for 2kton ship.

Thanks to Sigg Oddra, we now have the errors fixed! TY SAH!/me bows Unloaded she’s agile. I expect with formulae of load, agility one is best at max load out now, AC 11.

Notes:
Added the missile magazines, and additional 2x repair facilities inside, 1x full Med bay, as well as six Autodocs [base crew size of most small 100-200dtn ships], and created a sizable cargo hold for spares, room for a collapsible Lhyd fuel blivet if need be to refuel a derelict, etc.

Whew!
 
We're getting there


It still needs a 40t jump drive to shift 2000t at jump 1 though ;)

I discovered most of these problems when trying to get the RCES Clipper to work in T20...

Oh, and six pulse lasers - two triple turrets - only need 6 EP ;)

...and some money can be saved by making it close structure configuration and then upgrading the streamlining.
 
Hope all this is helping Liam


By the way, why's there only 20t of power plant fuel? Does the ship normally cruise around at less than 4G, only using the full output when it has to?
 
D'OH! x redux!
TY Sigg.
Changed pages and when we changed engines and PP I should have changed that! ARGH. Hang on! 1dton fuel/ engine unit.. :eek: :( :rolleyes:

12 units of engine means 12 dtns fer 4 weeks operating.

Hey +8 more dtons for...you guessed it--CARGO. ;)
 
Liam, I couldn't twist your arm to do up the TNE version could I. Looks very similar to the RC's clipper ships don't it? 600 Dtons main ship plus up to 1400 Dtons carried in grapples? ;) I should and ought to do it myself but I'm lazy like that and hate messing with drives for various differing tonnage.
 
TWIST it! :eek: OHHHH the pain!
file_21.gif


Actually Badbru--
IIRC, the type I , II, III clippers dressed out at 600dtns naked, and the Maggart dressed out at 700dtns. They also carried modules for fuel and extended jumps as well.

correction--they had a dual purpose shuttle-fuel tank, the 'Manta'class shuttle. The vessel itself carried no fuel beyond the PP's 4 week supply.

/me looks at this ship..ya know..those RC-Star Viking guys hadda get the idea from somewheres...
file_22.gif
:D

Me thinks the TNE versions are in print Badbru, twould be a bit of copying but me deadtrees are here at the house. How about tomorrow?
 
Clipper I's got relegated to the RC safe, hauling freight and passengers on J-2 routes.

Clipper II's were soon replaced in 1201-02 by the class III's

Class III clipper, TL-12
base tonnage 600dtns.

J-2 at 2080dtns dress out
J-3 at 1560dtn dress out
J-4 at 1248dtn dress out ironic number dontchya think?
J-5 at 1040dtns or less.

These having TL-E & F relic jump engines salvaged or from the Hivers installed.
 
Liam,
The TNE versions of the SS Carrion and/or the SS Charon are in print? Dan "The Man"-"Far Trader" Burns can sometimes be a naughty boy but not that naughty!
I was sure it was his idea;)

On a more serious note, I could have expressed myself a little better. Would it be to much of an imposition to have you do up a TNE version of your SS Charon? I think it would actually be a superior ship to the Clipper in many ways. Civilian thus no spinal weapon, nor likely missiles for a TNE verse. Probably four 106mj lasers and 2 sandcasters. Highly independant style of ship and by your design steamlined thus skims it's own fuel and can enter atmo. Maybe 6g capable depending on how those drives turn out so atleast av60. Yes indeed, I think I'll take three
 
NO..

the TNE versions of the Class III clipper are in print. Dan's ship idea is whole cloth his own Badbru.

Path of Tears--pages 154-157.

The Maggart, class IV's are printed up in the RCEG.

Additionally IIRC they are also online at BARD pages, off the www.Donport.com webring.
 
So, revisiting this it looks like my desire for Liam's T20 version to be close to my CTB2 version coloured my vision a bit


I was also reminded by your struggles and Siggs help of some of the differences between HG and T20, and the difficulty, let's call them challenges, of making variable performance hulls in T20.

While Liam's second version is more accurate it is also further from mine. Not a bad thing in itself or even unexpected. It is just that part of the reason I came back here is I was going to start sketching some deckplans and figured it'd be nice if they were cross compatible to some close degree. Not sure that's possible as they stand. However...

I have done up a very close* T20 version (sorry Liam, not too close to yours :( ) and I offer it as an alternative only. It is different from Liam's, not better, just more how I'd translate it.

* Did I say close? Hell, the tonnages are identical if a little fudged ;) And even the prices are ballpark close.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">TAS SHORT-FORM
.
+600.0T Hull-Cls-PS 120.000 (1)
Upgrd-FS 3.000 (2)
-40.0T Bridge-std 10.000 (1)
-4.0T Cmpt m/4 -2EP 32.000
-40.0T Jump Drive -24EP 160.000 (3)
-240.0T Jump Fuel
-66.0T Maneuver -24EP 33.000 (3)
Agility +0
-32.0T Fusion13 +32EP 96.000
-32.0T Fuel x4w
Fuel scoops 0.600 (2)
-5.0T Purifier 0.030
-6.0T Hardpoints x6 0.600
Tri Sand x2 3.500
Tri Miss x2 6.500
Tri Beam x2 -6EP 8.000
-80.0T Staterooms x20 10.000
-10.0T Lowberths x20 1.000
-40.0T Craft Hanger 0.080
-5.0T Supply Locker
.
Final price is MCr 484.31 before discount and
without subcraft.
.
(1) Based on 2000T hull to cover costs of tow
points.
.
(2) Based on 600T primary hull only. Otherwise
it is Unstreamlined.
.
(3) Performance varies with load. 600T is rated 4,
+200T is rated 3, +400T is rated 2, and +1400T is
rated 1.</pre>[/QUOTE]Design notes:

I started, like most of my translations with a little trick. Basically I've found that it's Engineering where the biggest differences lie between Book2 and HG/T20... BUT those differences seem to balance in themselves with a little massaging. So what I do is total up the Jump Drive, Maneuver Drive, Power Plant, Fuel, and if applicable Purifier(s) on the one design and use that as my total for the same components of the other design.

In this case, for example, the Book 2 version totals 415T of Engineering and I've got to meet the performance and add a purifier since I decided the drives are Naval rated.

Looking at the T20 requirements I need 40T for the Jump Drive (based on J1 for 2KT), 66T for Maneuver Drive (based on 4G for 600T), 240T of Jump Fuel (based on J4 for 600T), and 5T for the Fuel Purifier. That leaves me with 64T for the Power Plant and it's fuel. Being TL13 that's a divide by 2 for 4 weeks fuel, so the Power Plant is 32T (and 32EP which is just enough for the Drives, Computer, and 6 Lasers, lucky?).

Then everything else is easy, since it's all the same tonnage. Badda Boom Badda Bing.

I did make one change above and to the original, swapping the pulse lasers for beams, not sure it's "better" game wise or not.

Liam, note that I have the full jump fuel alloted. I see using this as is with the half-jump fuel rule and consider it a reserve for jumping into and out of dry systems (not a bad idea), or drop it by half and call the other 120T the External Craft Grapples
In T20 they would be good for up to 400T of carried craft so you could reduce the bridge requirement by half, save MCr5 and have 20T to do as you like, but limit the ship to 1000T total (400T carried).

Anyway, begin with the picking of the nits
 
I'll pick a couple of missed nits on Liam's to get the ball rolling and incite his rage to find something to pick at mine ;)

I noticed that you have 44T for the small craft hangers. Not exactly wrong, if it's considered a 2000T ship, but I'd cut some slack and say you could get away with just the required 40T since the primary hull is less than 1000T.

The other nit is you seem to be forgetting to add the volume of the computer core itself to the total for the computer. Just a 0.4T oversight, so no big worry really
 
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