General Striker Revisited?

[whartung]

Well had a quick look at this Frank Chadwick revision and it is basically Mega Traveller large scale combat in a new wrapper. Again not where I want to go.

So I guess it's not clear to me where you want to go.

You want a coarser scale?

Platoon/Company level infantry? Troop level armor?

Most mini systems are "vehicle" scale (they're mini's for crying out loud -- folks like the MINI and model aspect of the games), and so infantry comes second and is scaled to fit with the vehicles.

Otherwise it's at an individual scale.

Squad Leader is, well, "squad" level, with leader, crews, and single vehicles.

Panzer Leader is company platoon level, and troops of vehicles (I think).

I though maybe you'd like to look at Heavy Gear, it has 10 man units, but it tracks unit damage down to the individual. It also doesn't have the command system of something like Striker II.

Striker II is mostly a Sci Fi version of Chadwicks WWII Command Decision game.

 

[kilemall]

Well, sounds to me more like you want a wargame unit scaled thing and not Striker at all, right?

 

[mike wightman]

Striker is a wargame...

 

[kilemall]

Striker is a wargame...

Whole phrase was "wargame unit scaled", each counter/mark standing for fireteam/platoon on up.

 

[mega-striker]

Sorry, I thought I had defined my scale but I don't see it with a very quick look.

Each game unit is a fire team (as defined in Striker), weapon team, individual (leader, player character or "hero"). All vehicles and heavy weapons are singles. I see leaders as actually two or three person command stands. I also like the idea that members of a squad or section can be (temporarily) grouped together and act together as a single "unit" for movement and combat.

Another idea I have is based on a combination of troop quality and tech level the minimum unit size may range from platoon to fire team. This is based on my historical understanding where at the turn of the 20th century individual teams or squads did not act independently. At very high tech levels and/or high quality troops an acceptable fire team may be as few as two or even a single trooper. My thinking is a PGMP or FGMP is powerful enough by itself. I put this idea forth elsewhere and was informed that no fire team should be composed of fewer than 3 troopers as the need and benefits of mutual support would not allow for smaller teams.

 

[whartung]

Each game unit is a fire team (as defined in Striker), weapon team, individual (leader, player character or "hero"). All vehicles and heavy weapons are singles. I see leaders as actually two or three person command stands. I also like the idea that members of a squad or section can be (temporarily) grouped together and act together as a single "unit" for movement and combat.

So, then, how does Striker II not fit the bill here?

 

[mega-striker]

Potential Wrap up of this thread. Thank you all.

Sorry for the delays. I have a long commute which means early to bed, early to rise and I have been very tired lately so avoided replying for fear of being incoherent or incorrect.

I have gone over Striker II quickly and for these purposes only looked at direct fire from a primarily infantry point of view. My bias and direction I want to pursue. I mention some places it diverges from original Striker and Classic Traveller.

Striker II uses D20. Not a bad thing in itself, I am just used to 2D6 for anything Traveller oriented. Frankly I started gaming with D20 as my first miniatures rules set was Tractics, which I loved back in the day. The other divergence is, again, more a matter of inherent system where SII you roll low to hit.

Step one is where you roll multiple dice for hits. Each successful roll gives a single hit as opposed to OS's "for every roll X over needed adds another hit" method. Frankly when I got back into gaming a few years back I was confronted by the use of the "buckets of dice" mechanic. When I got out of gaming in the early '90s I hadn't seen this as it was not used in the games I played, although it was just starting to be introduced from, I believe games coming from the UK. The reduction of dice thrown for conditions which in OS would introduce (seemingly endless) dice roll modifiers is not a bad approach.

This brings one of my (originally) biggest bug-a boos, saving throws against hits. Getting back into gaming I played a few games of Chain of Command which is where I first saw this mechanic. I thought I was playing D&D all over again. SAVING THROWS(?) against successful hits. Didn't matter what explanation was given it just seemed wrong to me. In order for me not to go screaming from the room I have taken it as more of a second die roll for fineness of results. So far from ideal I have found a way for ME to live with them. I do have an issue with the use of D6 for the "save" and D20 for the attack mind you. Why not one die type for all combat or at least direct combat?

This mechanic now sounds a lot like 2300's die roll modification in practice. Not exactly but the sense is there. Unless the first roll is low enough to matter the second die is not rolled. Not very far off his approach IMHO.

So to wrap up I am being very picky. I have a rather narrow approach I want to go in if I am going to make up my own rules. I am open to looking at existing rules so if you please I would appreciate any more suggestions if they are similar to what I have mentioned. It appears no one replying to this thread is of similar enough mind to me wrt where I am looking to go with rules where the base unit size is fire teams, weapons crews, individual vehicles, etc. for both miniatures basing AND single dice rolls. I still like OS but see it as more of a skirmish game. If anyone is interested my old updates and additional rules were all written for OS and for those of you still playing it I believe they would be of utility and interest. Very niggly detail oriented, but that was always the feel I got from OS. Let me know if I should post these somewhere, and where. Thank you all for your input, analysis and comments. They are truly appreciated even if they conflict with my desires. Thank you very much.

 

[whartung]

I dunno, sounds like Striker II to me. Perhaps you want to go through and rework the dice rolls, but I dunno about that.

Striker II is a version of Command Decision. Command Decision is "a set of miniatures rules which enables players to refight operational-level combined arms engagements during WWII".

So, that's not squad based skirmishes. The units may be individual, the at the action level, I think it's higher level. Mind, I have not played either.

Kibitzing the die rolls, I can't speak to that, it's never been something I cared about.

I appreciate the D20 as it's easier than the D100. But I appreciate its linear scale. A +1 on a D20 has the same affect on the outcome no matter what (5% one way or the other), unlike 2D6. And for something physically based like shells smacking in to armor, I find percentages better.

An interesting note about Command Decision is that the turns are 30 minutes at scale, and from that they make the assertion that the came plays almost in "real time", since that actual turns, depending on complexity naturally, may take 30m to pull off. So, 3 hours of gameplay may well be 3 hours of combat. That's interesting, at least to me.

 

[mega-striker]

Whartung

I agree it looks pretty good (and a lot different than I thought originally) and I will give it a better go over. As I said I started with D20 and have no aversion to it. Mixing D20 and D6 in a single combat results seems sloppy to me. Time scale is 5 mins per turn which has a good feel to it wrt the rest of the game scale.

 

[Phillip]

I would like to see a new version of Striker. Personally I would see the best way would be to look at Flames of War - 15mm scale allowing for company level and above games that can is the combined arms approach - infantry, ground vehicles, air vehicles, etc.

 

[mega-striker]

OH, NOT flames of boredom. Played it and can't stand it. Striker as originally written is miles above it. For platoon and under (skirmish level) starting from Force on Force or Chain of Command would be a much better start. I am working on Ambush Alley! for solo modern skirmish level gaming right now and think it may be a good start. I will eventually look into adding sci fi and Striker will be the prime source.

When I started this thread my intention was for a set of rule for 6mm and I will return to that. But for now 15mm skirmish has my attention. Striker is that but I find some of the mechanics dated and awkward for regular gaming.

 

[Phillip]

OH, NOT flames of boredom. .....

When I started this thread my intention was for a set of rule for 6mm and I will return to that. ......

I quite like the rules and played some amazing games of Flames of War, but my post was more about the way things are organised and the models sold. And a commercial operation that makes money thus allowing ongoing development and support for the new version of Striker I am hopeful for.

I really enjoyed playing Striker when it was released using GW's 15mm Traveller minis. And the minis for a custom rule set using the Azhanti High Lightning floorpans.

But the tabletop miniatures game I enjoyed most was GW's 6mm Epic 40K.

Yes there are rulesets and minis out there, but unfortunately the vast majority of 15mm sci fi minis are not great models and I like the aesthetics as much as the game play. So hoping that a Striker fan has won the £122 million euro lottery this weekend and will license the IP and make a superb set of 15mm miniatures and decent ruleset for Striker. In my opinion there are plenty of factions and well established fluff to make a game that would sell well.

 

[Phillip]

....... In my opinion there are plenty of factions and well established fluff to make a game that would sell well.

Quoting myself is bad, for that I apologise.

However hitting post made me realise that my opinion counts as much as the success of Fates Fantasy Battle and the second edition The Fates Fantasy Battle.

Exactly!

All that I achieved with what I thought was a great set of rules and miniatures was an empty bank account .....

 

[mega-striker]

And a commercial operation that makes money thus allowing ongoing development and support for the new version of Striker I am hopeful for.

I really enjoyed playing Striker when it was released using GW's 15mm Traveller minis. And the minis for a custom rule set using the Azhanti High Lightning floorpans.

I am not familiar with the GW 15mm Traveller minis. I do have the old ('80s) Traveller minis Citadel released in box sets. I still have the boxes, nowadays they hold all my Journals of the Traveller's Aid Society journals (all back to #1).

Great minis still available in weird wargame mixes now from RAFM. I have a couple sets painted up for gaming. I just finished basing them with 1/2" washers as my method of transport (just starting there as well) uses magnetic sheet bases.

Actually I like Snapshot a little better than AHL, mostly because it accounts for weapon length. Someday I have to work up rules to integrate them. But yea using 15mm on 1/2" grid floor maps is way fun.


Frankly I never played 40K. It may be a good or great system but the orks in space (and every other fantasy species transported there), skulls on everything and quasi nazi regalia is a big turn off for me.

 

[mega-striker]

My beef with FoW is the way it played. Like something best left in the '70s. My opponent had a line of Marders, yes fender to fender in the open which dominated the game board. Three passes by Sturmoviks had little effect. The crew just jumped out then back in right away. He also "built" all his units by playing accountant and points analyzing everything. Turned his kid and me off. But his kid has to live there I don't.

Just unrealistic game play and results is what I saw all that day. Real world tactics were a joke. Just line everything up fender to fender from Leningrad to Sevastopol and the Germans can't go any further. Or in our game do the same with your Marders and Berlin is safe forever.

 

[mega-striker]

Well I have found the Hellfire rules and although it will need some massaging to introduce Striker and Traveller it looks pretty positive right now. So if anyone is still following my rants and still has any interest AND wants me to continue let me know. Otherwise I will shut up here but may post a forward link to another forum where I would expand upon what I am liking. Again this is for 6mm.