OTU Only: Strong Nobility?

[Drakon]

Haven't we had governors defy the feds, though?

Well, now that I think on it, I do remember a time when Virginia sent an army into Pennsylvania and Maryland. And yes there have been occasions where states have defied the Feds, forcing the Feds to send Federal troops into the states to correct the errors of the state governments. But that has been a while and it is is hard to imagine something like that occuring again, basically because of what happened the last time.

 

[mike wightman]

So you've read the Mongoose book on Deneb?

Nope, I only have the MgT core rules, HG and TCS.

Is Deneb any good?

 

[GypsyComet]

It certainly has a distinct character in the MGT book. There is no Sector Duke and not even a complete set of subsector Dukes, most of the subsector Dukes dislike and distrust each other at the traditional level, and have for as long as their seats have existed. The Navy is the only reason they play nice at all.

It does ignore a few bits of DGP's Deneb (as far back as TD#1), but is more interesting as a result, I think.

 

[rancke]

It certainly has a distinct character in the MGT book. There is no Sector Duke and not even a complete set of subsector Dukes, most of the subsector Dukes dislike and distrust each other at the traditional level, and have for as long as their seats have existed.

So the region is divided into as many different rebellious factions as concievable? Where have I heard that one before?

Sounds like a place where the Emperors should have replaced the lot of them generations ago. Oh, and appointed someone to run the sector government (ak.a. a sector duke).


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

The Spinward Marches do not have a full set of sub sector dukes either. The duchy of Regina controls worlds in several sub-sectors adjacent to it.

Isn't there a MgT adventure where Jewel gets a duke appointed?

 

[Dagrill]

Oh, I don't think there's nearly as much of that as Mike appears to think. But the Imperium is not a carbon copy of the 19th Century British Empire. There are command-and-control issues that make the Emperor weaker vis-á-vis the duchies than the British government was vis-á-vis its provinces. So while there are some similar factors at play, there are also some very different factors at play.
Hans

I'm not convinced the British government did such a good job of stopping Lord Chelmesford's invasion of Zululand, or Lord Robert's invasion of Afghanistan.

At least Strephron doesn't seem to be plagued by his Admiral's invading random Vargr worlds to extend the Imperium.

Regards

David

 

[Timerover51]

I'm not convinced the British government did such a good job of stopping Lord Chelmesford's invasion of Zululand, or Lord Robert's invasion of Afghanistan.

At least Strephron doesn't seem to be plagued by his Admiral's invading random Vargr worlds to extend the Imperium.

Regards

David

You need to take a look at how many times the British invaded Afghanistan during the 1800s, including the loss of an entire army in 1842.

As for Lord Chelmsford, he was acting essentially under Bartle Frere's orders, and what orders Bartle Frere had from the British government is unknown. At least, nothing is in writing.

 

[GypsyComet]

So the region is divided into as many different rebellious factions as concievable? Where have I heard that one before?

Sounds like a place where the Emperors should have replaced the lot of them generations ago. Oh, and appointed someone to run the sector government (ak.a. a sector duke).

At least one has been replaced. Several times.

Another is riding herd on a bunch of Vargr worlds that were absorbed instead of being cleansed, and their lines of fealty run through the family instead of the position, making that Duke tricky to replace. He's also one of the better ones.

The long rivalries have boiled down to simmering trade war by the 1100s. The disloyalties are subtle. Though the Navy is aware that shenanigans continue, catching the agents or their puppetmasters is rarely easy or effective. There is also evidence that someone keeps the pot stirred up, reigniting distrust where it might fade.

All in all, it plays well to later events. Couriers to the Marches going missing, the Domain being the last one to get an Archduke, and Strephon being well disposed toward Norris, the one Duke behind the Claw who seems to be paying attention.

 

[rancke]

Couriers to the Marches going missing...

How in space do you make a Navy Courier go missing¹ and what would be the point if you did? Whatever message it was carrying would be duplicated on the next courier (simple precaution taken by historical navies -- send duplicates).

¹ Unless you have someone inside the Navy working for you.​

I suppose it's conceivable that delaying a specific message a day or a week could be worthwhile. But how do you target the first courier to carry the message?


Hans

 

[Garyius2003]

Trying to imagine the governor of New Mexico ordering the National Guard to invade Arizona. Which is your point, isn't it?

Staying far away from the current over-media hyped US state issue...

in the 1800s Michigan and Ohio almost went to war over a port, and Michigan was awarded a huge detached stretch of land as a reward for backing down.

Then you have the water conflicts in the western states in the early 1900s.

 

[Timerover51]

Staying far away from the current over-media hyped US state issue...

in the 1800s Michigan and Ohio almost went to war over a port, and Michigan was awarded a huge detached stretch of land as a reward for backing down.

Then you have the water conflicts in the western states in the early 1900s.

The conflicts are still there, just now fought out in court rather than the battlefield. I am surprised that no one has mentioned the US almost going to war with the Mormons in 1857, or the Meadow Mountains Massacre.

 

[rancke]

in the 1800s Michigan and Ohio almost went to war over a port, and Michigan was awarded a huge detached stretch of land as a reward for backing down.

Then you have the water conflicts in the western states in the early 1900s.

So skirmishes between different duchies is not necessarily Medieval. But I don't think it's something most emperors would tolerate as a permanent condition. It would be a temporary anomaly, not business as usual.

One thing that I've always assumed would reduce the infighting is the Imperial principle of making each duchy fill precisely one subsector¹. That would mean that a duke would know that he wouldn't be allowed to keep any world that he might gain control over in a neighboring duchy, so why bother?

¹ When practical.​

Hans

 

[Orr]

Is Deneb any good?

Yes and no. It's written to provide lots of adventure ideas, but if Deneb was the roiling snake pit Mongoose claims it to be why is 30+ years of canon silent on the subject?

I like it, but I'd definitely dial back some parts.

 

[Orr]

Speaking of nobles, let me suggest Karl Shaw's Royal Babylon for anyone interested in creating some "interesting" nobles for their game.

 

[HiverLord]

in the 1800s Michigan and Ohio almost went to war over a port, and Michigan was awarded a huge detached stretch of land as a reward for backing down.

There's a reason Michigan and Ohio State Universities hate each other (this is not much of an overstatement...) in the Big Ten, and this is the original source of it.

Michigan received the Upper Penninsula, for those who don't know. Ohio received Toledo.
Long term, Michigan won, I think.

 

[Cryton]

I have always seen the Imperial Nobility as being far more concerned as to running the space between the stars than what occurs on world. They protect trade, ensure the worlds security from outside threats, and keep things moving between systems. The spice must flow.

An Imperial Noble's only duty on a world are to maintain the few Imperial ground side facilities (including but not limited to his fief and the starport), ensure that the world follows the few Imperial rules and pays it's taxes on time. The 3rd Imperium canonically leaves the governing of an individual world to the individual world. This is why there are so many Dictators in possession of worlds and why there are both planetary nobles AND Imperial nobles.

To be quite honest, I don't see a world's government as even having any say in the Moot at all, as the Moot does little in the way of Governing. Its only powers are to confirm a new Emperor and to dissolve the Imperium. Neither of which is any concern of a world government. Aside from having to keep a few 3I rules in place, a worlds government is not Imperial, and the Imperial government is not the worlds government.

I do see the Worlds Imperial Noble acting as a liaison in multi world disputes. The Nobles of the various worlds in question acting as impartial diplomats and go-betweens, but not much else. I also see the Noble being the guy to whom a worlds government turns to when they want Imperial intervention, intercession or assistance. But not much else.

As far as a planetary government is concerned, an Imperial noble is both strong and weak. Weak in that they have NO say in what happens outside of the worlds Imperial facility's or concerning the few 3I laws that must be kept. And yet they are strong in that they can cut off all trade with other worlds, have the worlds government removed or even have the world scorched black by the fleet should there be violations of Imperial Law.

Simply put, an Imperial Noble is associated with a particular world, because that world is the major world(s) in the territory of space that he has been assigned by the Emperor of the Third Imperium. He is both a power unto himself on the world and at the same time powerful and powerless where the local government is concerned.

Somehow I doubt my above ramblings have cleared up anything for anyone. But that's my .02CrImp

 

[Drakon]

To be quite honest, I don't see a world's government as even having any say in the Moot at all, as the Moot does little in the way of Governing. Its only powers are to confirm a new Emperor and to dissolve the Imperium. Neither of which is any concern of a world government. Aside from having to keep a few 3I rules in place, a worlds government is not Imperial, and the Imperial government is not the worlds government.

First, I think the Moot does a bit more than that, such as setting tax rates or contraband, and determining what is and is not Imperial High Law.

Second, because some planets will want a better control (or at least the perception of greater control) over their interstellar affairs, some will merge the Imperial and planetary nobility into one person. Some will do this to avoid having the Imperial knight order the planetary King to do anything. It can convert the Imperium's representative to the world, into a representative of the world to the Imperial Moot.

Third, some imperial nobles may be bored with all the title and estate but no real power and institute a government coup. Thereby taking over the planetary government as well. :devil:

Somehow I doubt my above ramblings have cleared up anything for anyone. But that's my .02CrImp

Actually I liked your ramblings. I do think that each case will be different, unique, and each noble has different ideas as to what their job entails, what they can get away with or what principles will guide how they conduct themselves.

When creating the patent of nobility cards, did Marc ever come up with a general in-game reason why these people have their specific cards? Or the issuance of the cards in general? Is Strephon trying to re energize the Moot?