Subsector captiols in the Imperium some observations

[Enoki]

Going through all the subsector capitols on the Traveller map, I've found that the Imperium is not a really stable or idyllic empire. If anything, it teeters on the brink of collapse most or all of the time. This assumes that the subsector capitols are the real political power of the empire and what hold it together as a subsector is small enough to allow control using the jump system of travel.

A third have oppressive law levels (A or above). One is a J!

Half are dictatorships of some sort, if you include, and assume, the impersonal bureaucracies are headed by a despot or single noble. A third are outright dictatorships or oligarchies (a family dictatorship). Twenty-five subsector capitols are run by unpopular dictators, who I would assume to be the subsector Duke.

Democracy is almost unknown. Only 22 capitols (about 8%) have some form of this government.

Sixteen percent are captive governments (9 of those) or balkanized (31). These I would assume are in some state of civil unrest or war as I can't see a duke or other nobility allowing split government on their personal world.

In addition, five are lawless (LL = 0) and another four are all but lawless (LL = 1). These too must be pretty much in open revolt.

About a quarter (62) are Amber Zones! I can't quite figure that one out. How can a subsector capitol be an amber zone...? o:

Possibly the worst of the bunch is Shudash (2817 Shudash subsector), a religious autocracy with a law level of J.

So, if half the empire is run by dictators, sixteen percent is undergoing some degree of open revolt, that doesn't leave a lot that's really stable. It also argues that most of the subsector Dukes must rule with, or close to, an iron fist.

 

[mike wightman]

The world government on a subsector capital has nothing to do with the seat of Imperial government for the subsector.
The duke of Regina does not rule Regina, he rules the Regina subsector. Regina has its own separate government that rules Regina, that government is nothing to do with the duke.

 

[aramis]

The world government on a subsector capital has nothing to do with the seat of Imperial government for the subsector.
The duke of Regina does not rule Regina, he rules the Regina subsector. Regina has its own separate government that rules Regina, that government is nothing to do with the duke.

There are a few exceptions to this in canon.

One Archduke directly rules a 7 world polity, for example, as well as all the local worlds, as his personal demense.

A few others are direct imperial rule

A small enough world, size 1 or 2, can easily be entirely within a ducal fief under T5. as they total 20 or 60 hexes, while the Ducal fief is 64 on his throneworld, and 64 in other worlds.

 

[mike wightman]

I am aware of the exceptions, I am speaking in general, the overwhelming majority of Imperial dukes do not directly rule the planets that give their name to the subsector.

 

[Condottiere]

The bureaucracy rules.

 

[mike wightman]

Interstellar government begins at the subsector level - out on the frontier extensive home rule is the norm due to the communication lar with central government.

What has been missing from the 3I setting all along is a government code for direct Imperial rule of a system, which should be very common in the core sectors but almost unheard of on the frontier.

 

[robject]

Interstellar government begins at the subsector level

QFT

The subsector is the unit-map of Traveller adventure.

 

[Garnfellow]

What has been missing from the 3I setting all along is a government code for direct Imperial rule of a system, which should be very common in the core sectors but almost unheard of on the frontier.

A hypothetical code G would certainly work for that. It would reserved to referee fiat and things like depots, maybe prison worlds, etc. could have this designation.

 

[Supplement Four]

The world government on a subsector capital has nothing to do with the seat of Imperial government for the subsector.
The duke of Regina does not rule Regina, he rules the Regina subsector. Regina has its own separate government that rules Regina, that government is nothing to do with the duke.

I never knew this. Source? (Source in CT, preferably.)

 

[Enoki]

The world government on a subsector capital has nothing to do with the seat of Imperial government for the subsector.
The duke of Regina does not rule Regina, he rules the Regina subsector. Regina has its own separate government that rules Regina, that government is nothing to do with the duke.

How does that work? A subsector Duke is supposedly the one that runs the subsector (or is the political head of it) and is granted a fiefdom, usually on the subsector capitol world (up to about 100,000 km^2 in size).

Dukes, Counts, and Vicounts, run groups of systems or individual important systems within the subsector reporting the to SS Duke. Marquis and Barons run less important individual systems and either report to a Duke, Vicount, or to the SS Duke directly.

Or, are these nobles more like "advise and consent" and really aren't the political or governmental power within the Imperium?

Either way, it doesn't explain much about some of the subsector capitols. Those that are lawless (law level 1 or 0)? The ones that are captive or balkanized?

Those run by dictators. How do they work in the face of Imperial nobility if the dictator isn't a noble him (or her) self? There's eight that have religious dictators running them. Would they also be nobles...?

I see the problem being that you can't really separate the local government from larger Imperial government. For example, you have a world that is run by an unpopular dictator who has imposed an onerous law level on it. Wouldn't that dictator be a noble himself? Maybe a baron or count? Why would any reasonable duke put up with a situation on the world he resides on where the Imperial bureaucracy is subject to repressive law enforcement and heavy-handed local bureaucrats that work for the dictator?

Or, what duke would stand for anarchy and a complete or near complete lack of local government and law enforcement because the planetary government doesn't really exist?

I simply can't see the Imperial government as being insulated and separate from local events and politics at the world level, or even the subsector level.

 

[mike wightman]

And now a bit of an explanation.

The Third Imperium as a setting developed from what was written in the introductions to LBB4 and LBB5 about the Imperium being a remote central government, and worlds on the frontier having the autonomy to govern themselves as they see fit.

Imperial government begins at the subsector level.

The Imperium does not own or interfere with how a member world governs itself.

The Imperium may own small pockets of land on member worlds thanks to treaty or land purchase.

The subsector duke rules the Imperial government apparatus which is at the subsector level in the name of the emperor, he/she does not rule the world designated as subsector capital apart from the few instances Aramis mentioned.

These quotes are from Library Data A-M and Spinward Marches.

Individual worlds, and even entire systems, are free to govern themselves as they
desire, provided that ultimate power is always accorded the Imperium. Interstellar
government begins at the subsector level- on one world designated the subsector
capital. The ruling figure at the subsector capital is a high-ranking noble selected
by higher levels of government. This duke has a free hand in government, and is
subject only to broad guidelines from his superiors. But at the same time, the duke
owes fealty to the higher levels of government, ultimately to the Emperor himself.

The world indicated is the seat of government at the subsector (or
other interstellar) level. In many cases, this government is independent of the local
planetary government.

 

[Enoki]

Then it's worse than I though. The central Imperial government is really a weak confederation of "states" (systems) who pretty much hold most of the political power. The nobles are more figureheads than actually powerful political entities.

This would explain why some subsectors lack a capitol, and why others are not on X-boat routes. They really have little need for either unless there is something in it for them like money or protection.

That would also explain why so many are amber zones. They simply don't want the Imperial government there so they're making things difficult for them. Sort of a "We tolerate your presence, but stay on your reservation or else..."

Given the size of the empire, it could take months, even years, for information about a system that doesn't want the Imperial government anywhere near them to get to some place that might actually care and do something about it.
I mean, what can a local Imperial noble do if the planetary / system government(s) tell him to shove off when he needs to raise troops to put down a rebellion?
The local governments could do what the Confederate states as they seceded... They could simply take over whatever Imperial facilities are in place locally, possibly take Imperial Navy ships over-- particularly the ones in port or under repair-- and declare these as their own.

As there are any number of subcultures and peoples who pretty much despise to outright hate the Imperium (the Solomani come to mind) how can systems with large majorities of Solomani be left to do as they please? Wouldn't they simply revolt and revert to being Solomani states?

A weak central government, which is what is proposed here, would be faced with continuous internal upheaval and revolts among systems. What incentive is there for most of the empire to remain part of the empire?

 

[BlackBat242]

The local governments could do what the Confederate states as they seceded... They could simply take over whatever Imperial facilities are in place locally, possibly take Imperial Navy ships over-- particularly the ones in port or under repair-- and declare these as their own.

As there are any number of subcultures and peoples who pretty much despise to outright hate the Imperium (the Solomani come to mind) how can systems with large majorities of Solomani be left to do as they please? Wouldn't they simply revolt and revert to being Solomani states?

A weak central government, which is what is proposed here, would be faced with continuous internal upheaval and revolts among systems. What incentive is there for most of the empire to remain part of the empire?

You are ignoring (or didn't notice) this part of Mike's quote of the CT Library Data:

Individual worlds, and even entire systems, are free to govern themselves as they desire, provided that ultimate power is always accorded the Imperium.

Any seizure of Imperial property/equipment, or declaration of independence, etc WILL be met with strong Imperial Military response! And yes, the Imperium DOES have large interstellar fleets - mostly to deal with "outsiders", but also to provide a response force if any world is so stupid as to deny Imperial authority!

The Imperium is not a "weak central government" - it is a "loosely controlling central government". It is not interested in local matters - but is VERY interested in ANY challenge to its authority.

 

[Enoki]

You are ignoring (or didn't notice) this part of Mike's quote of the CT Library Data:

Any seizure of Imperial property/equipment, or declaration of independence, etc WILL be met with strong Imperial Military response! And yes, the Imperium DOES have large interstellar fleets - mostly to deal with "outsiders", but also to provide a response force if any world is so stupid as to deny Imperial authority!

The Imperium is not a "weak central government" - it is a "loosely controlling central government". It is not interested in local matters - but is VERY interested in ANY challenge to its authority.

Oh, I noticed it. I also know from history such "empires" rarely last long as they suffer internal divisions and revolts. The second some Archduke has enough power in his possession he may well decide it's time to go his own way with a big chunk of the empire. This is particularly true if the central government is in the middle of something like a major war somewhere else.
Systems on the fringes of the empire may well decide that their best interests lay with other polities and do nothing but pay lip service to their supposedly being part of the Imperium... wink, wink...

Just because the Imperium says so doesn't mean the locals comply. The Rim War is a perfect example of that. How many of those systems "joined" the Imperium willingly? The Imperial government telling them that's how it is, doesn't mean they're going to listen, particularly if they see it isn't being enforced. Letting them run their own affairs may well see them deciding that doesn't include being part of the Empire.
At worst they openly revolt. At best they are untrustworthy and require constant and close observation to prevent a revolt.

The question then becomes, where's all this military might deployed? Does the subsector Duke, or any of the other nobles in that sector have their own-- for all intents-- personal army of the Empire to throw into repressing a local revolt? That, in turn, means the Imperial nobility in the subsector can't take a hands off approach to how they rule.

If the Imperium has spread its military forces across the entirety of the interior for the purpose of ensuring loyalty of systems, then it is going to be weak on the borders. I can't see the Imperium having an near unlimited amount of military forces to use. So, a revolt may take most of a year to get acted on, then years to quell as the necessary forces have to be gathered from wherever to move to put it down.

None of this still answers questions like what if a particular world / system has a really brutal dictator running it? Does the Subsector Duke care if some world with say two distinct populations on it has one carrying out genocide against the other?
Does the Imperial government care if a world indoctrinates and propagandizes the population in some way that makes them dangerous to outsiders or being recruited for Imperial service? I hold as an example the subsector capitol Shudash. It's a religious autocrat's world (gov E) and has a law level of J. You can bet the population there is getting a massive indoctrination from birth to death.

If the Imperium isn't willing to stop the local Pol Pot, or Hitler, or Mao, from genocide, mass executions, or the like so long as the dictator de jour is kowtowing to the empire, what will get them involved?

The way I'm reading this, makes it really more interesting in terms of the game. The Imperium becomes a place of intrigues, revolts, civil war, political unrest, and all sorts of other destabilizing of society.

 

[aramis]

None of this still answers questions like what if a particular world / system has a really brutal dictator running it? Does the Subsector Duke care if some world with say two distinct populations on it has one carrying out genocide against the other?
Does the Imperial government care if a world indoctrinates and propagandizes the population in some way that makes them dangerous to outsiders or being recruited for Imperial service? I hold as an example the subsector capitol Shudash. It's a religious autocrat's world (gov E) and has a law level of J. You can bet the population there is getting a massive indoctrination from birth to death.

If the Imperium isn't willing to stop the local Pol Pot, or Hitler, or Mao, from genocide, mass executions, or the like so long as the dictator de jour is kowtowing to the empire, what will get them involved?

The way I'm reading this, makes it really more interesting in terms of the game. The Imperium becomes a place of intrigues, revolts, civil war, political unrest, and all sorts of other destabilizing of society.

we know that, at least on paper, the local Duke is authorize to take out the Pol Pot and Josef Stalin types... once they begin their genocide. And it is then a massive overreaction, total regime change.

 

[Enoki]

we know that, at least on paper, the local Duke is authorize to take out the Pol Pot and Josef Stalin types... once they begin their genocide. And it is then a massive overreaction, total regime change.

So, this argues that the subsector duke and Imperial nobles in general have some part in local politics regularly and have some degree of military power readily at hand. I'd also speculate that many of the local despots and dictators are in fact Imperial nobles who control a world rather than some non-noble politician. This is why they're tolerated. They're part of the in-club and know the secret handshake so-to-speak so they're given leeway because they're reliable otherwise.

 

[GypsyComet]

So, this argues that the subsector duke and Imperial nobles in general have some part in local politics regularly and have some degree of military power readily at hand. I'd also speculate that many of the local despots and dictators are in fact Imperial nobles who control a world rather than some non-noble politician. This is why they're tolerated. They're part of the in-club and know the secret handshake so-to-speak so they're given leeway because they're reliable otherwise.

Wanton abuse of the population under your rule is a tightrope act. Get caught at it, and your titles, Imperial or not, are essentially (if also *eventually*) worthless. If you make the Imperial Tax installments on time, the other nobles in your area may simply bide their time by compiling a laundry list, determining if you've acquired some level of influence with the Duke, and making certain that, when the inevitable day of your demise arrives, your careful plans of succession fail. Get too blatant and they won't wait. You become the avenue of promotion for some other Noble line as yours is removed from power.

Of course, this also likely happens to a few of the "good guys", because politics can turn nasty. Get caught doing THAT, and the Duke will direct an Auditor to your door accompanied by as many Marines as it takes. The Emperor and his Dukes do not appreciate losing good people to shenanigans, and they *really* hate being duped.

IMO, the Imperium does not like to mix High Noble titles with actual planetary rulership. It does happen, of course, but anyone using an Imperial High title to leverage their way into running a planet outright will likely have to justify their actions later.

That's not to say that High Nobles can't have a great deal of influence over a world. Or very little, for that matter. I do think the implications of the practice are one factor that led Marc to change the GT assignment of nobles.
Under GT, every Main World in the Imperium has its own Baron, and may have higher rank as well. That's... a LOT of Barons, and quite a few would, with their households, end up as the sole inhabitants. Frankly, that flavors the Imperium in ways that don't mesh with what else we know. It also flips the rank benefits over, with lowly Barons outright owning and running whole worlds while Dukes and Counts frequently don't.
So Marc bumped that job down to Knights.

 

[Condottiere]

I think that there's self correction at work, a form of natural term limits.

Even an isolated hermit kingdom that totally oppresses it's population has to pay it's tithes to the Imperium exchequer.

If that's sabotaged, with or without external instigation and/or assistance, the ruler could experience anything from a soft coup to a full occupation.

 

[Enoki]

Wanton abuse of the population under your rule is a tightrope act. Get caught at it, and your titles, Imperial or not, are essentially (if also *eventually*) worthless. If you make the Imperial Tax installments on time, the other nobles in your area may simply bide their time by compiling a laundry list, determining if you've acquired some level of influence with the Duke, and making certain that, when the inevitable day of your demise arrives, your careful plans of succession fail. Get too blatant and they won't wait. You become the avenue of promotion for some other Noble line as yours is removed from power.

Of course, this also likely happens to a few of the "good guys", because politics can turn nasty. Get caught doing THAT, and the Duke will direct an Auditor to your door accompanied by as many Marines as it takes. The Emperor and his Dukes do not appreciate losing good people to shenanigans, and they *really* hate being duped.

IMO, the Imperium does not like to mix High Noble titles with actual planetary rulership. It does happen, of course, but anyone using an Imperial High title to leverage their way into running a planet outright will likely have to justify their actions later.

That's not to say that High Nobles can't have a great deal of influence over a world. Or very little, for that matter. I do think the implications of the practice are one factor that led Marc to change the GT assignment of nobles.
Under GT, every Main World in the Imperium has its own Baron, and may have higher rank as well. That's... a LOT of Barons, and quite a few would, with their households, end up as the sole inhabitants. Frankly, that flavors the Imperium in ways that don't mesh with what else we know. It also flips the rank benefits over, with lowly Barons outright owning and running whole worlds while Dukes and Counts frequently don't.
So Marc bumped that job down to Knights.

I don't see it. Fully a third of subsector capitols are law level A and above. I don't know what the over all average is for all worlds, but I suspect it's about 8 or 9.
A and above is Extreme law. 18% of capitols are C and above. That means the authorities could do anything including stop you at random for a body search at any time, or show up at your residence to search it, as two examples. (unrestricted invasion of privacy) C is about where 1984 starts.
There are nine (9) that are LL F and above. These are rigidly oppressive. The one with a law level of J (!) I could imagine dishing out a severe beating or other torture for not having a proper hair style or having your regulation clothing slightly misaligned. It'd make that Star Trek episode with Landru look like paradise.
Then there's government types. Almost a third of all subsector capitols are outright dictatorships. If you count in impersonal bureaucracies, it's nearly half (45%).

I'll have to look at the relationship between population, government, and law level... But, I'm guessing that when you hit about a 6 or 7 population the other two start to tend towards being oppressive on any world.
After all, if the throw is 2D-7 + population, the average there is going to be 6 or 7 and a lot of worlds are going to be much higher.
The same for government being 2D-7 + law level. Once you get a high law level, you get a lot of really intrusive and onerous government types.

I'd say the nobility really doesn't care that this is going on so long as taxes are paid, and a major reason for it is that most of the nobles, like it or not, aren't against it. We can't apply our moral values to what they might have in the Imperium any more than we can to past societies on Earth, many of which were incredibly repressive. We can compare them however...

 

[aramis]

So, this argues that the subsector duke and Imperial nobles in general have some part in local politics regularly and have some degree of military power readily at hand. I'd also speculate that many of the local despots and dictators are in fact Imperial nobles who control a world rather than some non-noble politician. This is why they're tolerated. They're part of the in-club and know the secret handshake so-to-speak so they're given leeway because they're reliable otherwise.

Canon says the SS Duke has a numbered reserve fleet, aka "Subsector Navy".
Canon also says that high nobles may raise (at their own expense) a unit of huscarles.

It's pretty clear that the nobles don't intervene until genocide, C/B/R warfare, or attempted secession.

Or, as in Agent of the Imperium, you get a nasty, virulent plague, in which case, the navy ends local popular unrest by removal of population via orbital bombardment.