Subsector captiols in the Imperium some observations

[Black Vulmea]

IMO, the Imperium does not like to mix High Noble titles with actual planetary rulership. It does happen, of course, but anyone using an Imperial High title to leverage their way into running a planet outright will likely have to justify their actions later.

I tend to look at it the other way 'round, for the high nobles: once you've established yourself as a business and political leader, then the Imperium ennobles you. In this context, a political leader doesn't necessarily need to be a tyrant, but rather someone who can exert meaningful influence on the local political system.

Looking at my notes from my last Traveller campaign, the high nobles of my setting have a plethora of world-specific titles, reflecting their local influence. The sector duke is the First Senator on his own republican homeworld, with no more statutory power than other senators in the planetary legislature but enjoying a number of privileges and courtesies paid to him by tradition. A powerful marquis is Padishah of the Five Worlds, a title deriving from a polity of the Long Night, but his homeworld is governed by an impersonal bureaucracy of which he is only nominally in-charge. A subsector duchess is Patron of the Provincial Union on one of her worlds, Advocate of another - neither is under direct rule. Another marquise is Polemarch of her homeworld hegemony, and she rules her systems with an iron fist. An marquise is chair of the ruling political party on her homeworld, which the IISS classifies as a non-charismatic autocracy, no doubt a reaction to the loss of the subsector duchy to another noble house.

Oligarch, Lord Chancellor, Life-President, Syndic, Triarch Prime, Secretary-General, Illustrious Councillor, Elector, Diarch, Potentate, Warlord - the range of local titles among the sector's high nobles is as dizzying as the many forms of government their homeworlds take. Their Imperial titles really only tell a fraction of their stories.

Under GT, every Main World in the Imperium has its own Baron, and may have higher rank as well.

:nonono:

The tendency of GT to make the Third Imperium too orderly, like a collection of butterflies pinned in a shadow box, makes me itch. Eleven thousand worlds saddled with slow communications should leave a hella-lot of latitude for local variation.

So, this argues that the subsector duke and Imperial nobles in general have some part in local politics regularly and have some degree of military power readily at hand.

The subsector duchess is the nearest political leader to the fleet admiral; she's got batrons and crurons and Imperial Marine regiments she may, in her good judgement, call upon to exert the will of the Iridium Throne.

I'd also speculate that many of the local despots and dictators are in fact Imperial nobles who control a world rather than some non-noble politician. This is why they're tolerated. They're part of the in-club and know the secret handshake so-to-speak so they're given leeway because they're reliable otherwise.

IMTU, they have cadet branches, are shareholders in each others' family business interests and joint stock owners in a sector-wide mining consortium - something like the Landsraad and CHOAM - and intermarry with regularity, so yeah, there's a certain measure of live-and-let-live . . .

. . . right up to the point where there's not, for though they may be business partners and relations, the high noble families are also self-interested entities in a web of shifting alliances and rivalries held in check by a rough balance of power which insures if one family drifts too far out of orbit, the rest will step in to restore order.

If the Imperium isn't willing to stop the local Pol Pot, or Hitler, or Mao, from genocide, mass executions, or the like so long as the dictator de jour is kowtowing to the empire, what will get them involved?

The same things that got other powers on Earth involved, I imagine: national interest, strategic imperative, and international approbation all come to mind.

The way I'm reading this, makes it really more interesting in terms of the game. The Imperium becomes a place of intrigues, revolts, civil war, political unrest, and all sorts of other destabilizing of society.

Yup, which is why it's my favorite roleplaying game setting.

 

[mike wightman]

DGP and GT authors missed one critical bit of the nature of the Imperium which as a result has coloured the majority view of the Imperium - IMHO there is a big difference between how the Imperium rules the core sector worlds and how they rule the frontier regions.

Core sector worlds are much more likely to be directly ruled by the Imperial apparatus of state, while on the frontier autonomous world governments that owe allegiance to the Imperium are the norm.

Thus core sector worlds are much more likely to have the estates of knights, barons and dukes as actual territory on these worlds, while on the frontier the Imperium has no authority to grant land to anyone on a world with an existing government. Purchasing it is a different matter entirely...
There are however empty worlds that are earmarked for colonisation by the Imperium directly, and thus will be available as land grants to ex-service personnel who have earned noble titles etc.

 

[Black Vulmea]

Core sector worlds are much more likely to be directly ruled by the Imperial apparatus of state, while on the frontier autonomous world governments that owe allegiance to the Imperium are the norm.

Thus core sector worlds are much more likely to have the estates of knights, barons and dukes as actual territory on these worlds, while on the frontier the Imperium has no authority to grant land to anyone on a world with an existing government.

Here's my take (IMTU) on the Third Imperium: the Syleans wanted to bring as much territory into their sphere as fast as possible during the so-called Pacification Campaigns - rather than fighting, which slows down expansion and wastes resources, they made deals with the scattered polities of the Long Night, exchanging fealty for continuing home rule, appointing satraps - the first high nobles - to do most of the actual 'pacification,' backed by a few Sylean warships, thereby establishing the relationship between the Imperial Navy and the colonial/provincial fleets which exists to this day.

These satraps had their existing property turned into their fiefs: you ranched a valley, fished a seamount, built widgets in a factory block, owned office buildings? Bam! That's your barony, and the local government can no longer remove it from you, because it's been 'Imperialized.' We'll also include surrounding lands in your fief, which you don't own outright but from which you draw a portion of Imperial tax revenue. Your ranch may only extend across the valley floor, but your fief as represented by its tax footprint includes everything from ridgeline to ridgeline, and up and down the valley, including the market town where all the ranchers sell their cattle. Now you have a cash flow which allows you to buy out your neighbors over time, expand your own business and buy into others and become a name in local politics.

In this scheme, Imperial high nobles then are truly self-made sophonts; their power base consists of a fief which is closely tied to their financial acumen and political savvy. You're successful enough as a baron, mebbe we'll make you a count - IMTU count and marquis are restored to their 'proper' order of precedence - drawing from the tax base of your whole world; if your world owns another planet, congratulations, you could be the next marquis, which is not a small deal, because if the subsector duke's doing a crap job, you could succeed to the title.

My Third Imperium then is a bit Achaemenid Persia, a bit Sicilian Mafia.

 

[mike wightman]

I like that, I like that a lot

Oddly enough I have often compared minor Imperial nobility on the frontier akin to made man status and the Imperium being like the mob, the subsector duke being the local boss

One of the reasons for the almost open rebellion of the Ine Givar and their ilk in the pre-FFW Marches is the reluctance of the locals to allow greater Imperial 'oversight' and encroachment, not enough locals have been coopted, bribed, coerced or made offers they can not refuse to become part of the mob - sorry - Imperial nobility and hence very few worlds have actual Imperial territory beyond an Imperial owned (leased?) starport, base or installation.

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

DGP and GT authors missed one critical bit of the nature of the Imperium which as a result has coloured the majority view of the Imperium - IMHO there is a big difference between how the Imperium rules the core sector worlds and how they rule the frontier regions.

Core sector worlds are much more likely to be directly ruled by the Imperial apparatus of state, while on the frontier autonomous world governments that owe allegiance to the Imperium are the norm.

Thus core sector worlds are much more likely to have the estates of knights, barons and dukes as actual territory on these worlds, while on the frontier the Imperium has no authority to grant land to anyone on a world with an existing government. Purchasing it is a different matter entirely...
There are however empty worlds that are earmarked for colonisation by the Imperium directly, and thus will be available as land grants to ex-service personnel who have earned noble titles etc.

I think you make an excellent point.

Each Domain can be wildly disparate in how it rules and administers the laws of the central Emperor.

The early adventures often referred to an Imperial Fringe.

And the line between Third Imperium and Feudal Confederation is probably a rather fuzzy one.

Thanks for sharing your insights.

Shalom,
M.

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

Here's my take (IMTU) on the Third Imperium: the Syleans wanted to bring as much territory into their sphere as fast as possible during the so-called Pacification Campaigns - rather than fighting, which slows down expansion and wastes resources, they made deals with the scattered polities of the Long Night, exchanging fealty for continuing home rule, appointing satraps - the first high nobles - to do most of the actual 'pacification,' backed by a few Sylean warships, thereby establishing the relationship between the Imperial Navy and the colonial/provincial fleets which exists to this day.

My Third Imperium then is a bit Achaemenid Persia, a bit Sicilian Mafia.

This book pretty much explains that process:
http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Pocket_Empires

It was also the source for many T5 game elements and storylines.

It details two pocket empires that follow the schema that you have spoken of.

They don't call it Marc Miller's Traveller for nothing...

Shalom,
M.

 

[Timerover51]

I am not sure if this is deliberate or simply a result of how the rules generate the government of a world. A government is determined by the roll of 2D6-7+ the population exponent. If a world has a high or near-high population, the likelihood of getting democracy is quite small. Taking the U.S. as an example, the U.S. currently would have a population exponent of 8, population in the hundreds of millions. The only possible roll to get a Representative Democracy on the 2D6 is a 3, resulting in a -4 + 8 giving a result of 4. That is slightly over a 5% chance. A 2 on the roll gets you a Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy, while 4 and higher gets you into the harsher government types. A roll of 6 or higher gets you to Civil Service Bureaucracy and it goes from there. For China or India, with a population exponent of 9, they have 1 chance in 36 for a Representative Democracy. That is the same chance that would exist for a government level of 14. As the Law Level is keyed to the government level by the 2D6-7+ the government exponent, that pushes the Law Level higher as well.

The problem is not that the Imperium is broken, the problem is that the rules for generating Government Type and Law Level are broken, and have been from the start. It is a case of positive feedback. High population results in a high government level which results in a high law level.

 

[Black Vulmea]

I like that, I like that a lot

*hat tip*

Oddly enough I have often compared minor Imperial nobility on the frontier akin to made man status and the Imperium being like the mob, the subsector duke being the local boss

Definitely. No question in my mind.

This book pretty much explains that process:
http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Pocket_Empires

Not familiar with it - I know next to nothing about T4.

It was also the source for many T5 game elements and storylines.

Or T5, though I do have the core rules .pdf in a folder somewhere.

Taking the U.S. as an example, the U.S. currently would have a population exponent of 8, population in the hundreds of millions. The only possible roll to get a Representative Democracy . . .

You're assuming the IISS would categorize the United States as a Representative Democracy.

And in the interest of the No Politics rule, I think we'd better leave it at that.

 

[KyleLittle]

That is a good point. America's representative democracy was established at a time when the population was much smaller. World generation is just a snapshot in time, it gives no sense of what went on before the dice were rolled. I know Pocket Empires has a method to "grow" polities but it would be interesting to have a world generation process that mirrored character generation in that the world gets to have a life before the adventuring starts.

 

[kilemall]

I am not sure if this is deliberate or simply a result of how the rules generate the government of a world. A government is determined by the roll of 2D6-7+ the population exponent. If a world has a high or near-high population, the likelihood of getting democracy is quite small. Taking the U.S. as an example, the U.S. currently would have a population exponent of 8, population in the hundreds of millions. The only possible roll to get a Representative Democracy on the 2D6 is a 3, resulting in a -4 + 8 giving a result of 4. That is slightly over a 5% chance. A 2 on the roll gets you a Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy, while 4 and higher gets you into the harsher government types. A roll of 6 or higher gets you to Civil Service Bureaucracy and it goes from there. For China or India, with a population exponent of 9, they have 1 chance in 36 for a Representative Democracy. That is the same chance that would exist for a government level of 14. As the Law Level is keyed to the government level by the 2D6-7+ the government exponent, that pushes the Law Level higher as well.

The problem is not that the Imperium is broken, the problem is that the rules for generating Government Type and Law Level are broken, and have been from the start. It is a case of positive feedback. High population results in a high government level which results in a high law level.

That isn't broken, that's a feature set.

 

[Black Vulmea]

That isn't broken, that's a feature set.

It's certainly an interesting setting conceit, holding up a sort of Jeffersonian ideal of small populations with minimally intrusive laws forming virtuous societies while large populations tend toward both authoritarianism and corruption.

One of the ways this manifests itself IMTU is Vilani culture. Vilani, in my experience, are too-often portrayed as bland, orderly space Canadians, but when I played a Vilani merchant in a campaign a half-dozen years ago, I described him as 'a member of a culture of cutthroat bureaucrats' and a 'vulture capitalist.' Vilani are, or should be, in my opinion, methodical, relentless, utterly ruthless commercial competitors; mistaking their penchant for consensus-building and procedural thinking as a liability is to miss their collective resolution and cold-blooded efficiency.

 

[aramis]

It's certainly an interesting setting conceit, holding up a sort of Jeffersonian ideal of small populations with minimally intrusive laws forming virtuous societies while large populations tend toward both authoritarianism and corruption.

One of the ways this manifests itself IMTU is Vilani culture. Vilani, in my experience, are too-often portrayed as bland, orderly space Canadians, but when I played a Vilani merchant in a campaign a half-dozen years ago, I described him as 'a member of a culture of cutthroat bureaucrats' and a 'vulture capitalist.' Vilani are, or should be, in my opinion, methodical, relentless, utterly ruthless commercial competitors; mistaking their penchant for consensus-building and procedural thinking as a liability is to miss their collective resolution and cold-blooded efficiency.

Canonically, they're psychotically bureaucratic but with an "everyone must be heard" mentality.

For example...
Ship gets hit with a rock.

• Standard imperial — does a damage check, then captain sends a man out to fix the damage
• Vilani — does a damage check. Calls a staff meeting unless more rocks are inbound. Discussion of whether any affected areas have spares. decision made by the Captain after consultation of the Damage Control Team and the Ship's Officers, and the DCT having made a proposal on how to fix it. If more than one DCT, each gets to cobble together a proposal.
• Vargr — Captain orders a favored technician out to fix it before checking to see if it needs fixing, and hopes that it doesn't need fixing; said technician repairs it if needed, then Tells everyone that the issue is fixed (even if nothing was done)
• Solomani — Captain asks for a damage check. If repairs needed, orders the most politically reliable technician to repair it. SolSec monitor takes notes.

The Vilani seem to make Picard's Enterprise look positively quick.

 

[Black Vulmea]

Canonically, they're psychotically bureaucratic but with an "everyone must be heard" mentality.

For example...
Ship gets hit with a rock . . .

Yes, I'm familiar with the one-note 'canon' presentations, reducing them to punchlines. Ever wonder why so many gamers think Traveller aliens are boring?

Meticulous Vilani consensus building means everyone's on-board, knows their part, and will execute it as long as they can take a breath to benefit the whole. Having 'a manual for everything' means contingencies are covered based on the collective experience of generations - surprising a Vilani with something new isn't easy.

So much of the treatment of the Vilani as moribund is based on the need to retrosplain how the Solomani kicked their asses. That way lies a failure of imagination, in my experience.

But we're getting way afield from the topic at this point.

 

[jcrocker]

...Vilani, in my experience, are too-often portrayed as bland, orderly space Canadians...

Hey, space is absolute zero. That's cold.

There's Vargr our there. Space wolves.

It's cold and got wolves out, who else are you going to want by your side working in space besides Space Canadians?

...And Space Alaskans?

...and maybe some of the 'M' states, Minnesota, Montana, upper Michigan?

 

[Timerover51]

When healthy, I was good done to 62 below Fahrenheit. I am not sure what the wind chill was, that was at Fort Greely, Alaska in January of 1976.

 

[Black Vulmea]

It's cold and got wolves out, who else are you going to want by your side working in space besides Space Canadians?

My point is that Vilani are neither as genially affable nor studiously polite. They're more like Canadians with hockey sticks.

 

[Condottiere]

Biology is destiny.

How long do Vilani live?

 

[aramis]

Hey, space is absolute zero. That's cold.

There's Vargr our there. Space wolves.

It's cold and got wolves out, who else are you going to want by your side working in space besides Space Canadians?

...And Space Alaskans?

...and maybe some of the 'M' states, Minnesota, Montana, upper Michigan?

Beware Nupchik the Whale Hunter... he may only fly half a G, but he can do so for months, and his harpoon sinks frigates and he always comes home with meat!

 

[GypsyComet]

Vilani, in my experience, are too-often portrayed as bland, orderly space Canadians...

Bland and orderly is the act. The reality MAY be quite a bit darker, but they are hardly cookie cutter villains in their trillions.

 

[mike wightman]

As I have posted a few times, if you want to understand Vilani study their history

time of myths - ridiculous stories of a war in heaven, angels and demons moving across the planet and laying waste to everything as they war amongst themselves

time of discovery - Vilani are not native to the planet they find themselves on, are they the remnants of a colony, were they deliberately moved/constructed here, are there other lost colonies out there?

time of exploration - STL travel to nearby systems, founding of colonies, investigating mysteries

return to the stars - invention of jump, exploration, trade, mysteries, conflict, alliances, discoveries, horrors

trade empire - the minus one Imperium, Vilani traders and corporations effectively 'rule' the areas they trade in

<disconnect>

consolidation wars - the Vilani become ruthlessly militaristic in their conquest of their previous peaceful trade empire, foundation of empire and the rise of the shadow emperor
(yup. I have a conspiracy theory about the true nature of the shadow empire and what kicked off the consolidation wars in the first place)

First Imperium - cultural and technological stagnation and a re-writing of the history books to paint the Vilani as rule bound servitors since their earliest times - something their history doesn't support.

TL;DR the Vilani stereotype/caricature is rubbish, there is a lot more depth to them