T5: Collector TL Stage Effects / Annic Nova Q.

[Grav_Moped]

Started out by posting this in the wrong place (if anything, it's a T5.1 question, not a T5.09 one). Needed its own thread in a different forum.

page 351: Chart C shows TL 15, Standard Stage, Collector Drive has a Potential of 3. Note that the TL Chart on the same page mirrors the chart on page 294.

-but-

page 294: Chart W shows TL 15 Collector Drive, (Standard Stage, in the caption), becomes available with a Potential of 2.


Which is correct, if this isn't Errata?

I'm designing a TL 15 ship with a Collector and need to know which to use. If the ship can Jump-3 at TL 15 on Standard Stage, great. I'll fit a Jump Drive with a Potential of 3. If not and the Potential is only a Jump-2, that's fine alongside the current Jump Drive of 2. I just want to know which is correct. Tonnage is not an object as the cargo hold still has plenty left unused tons.

Don't look at any other Stages. I'm only concerned with Standard Stage. Note also that the Modified Stage does not appear on this or many other Charts. Why is that?

EDIT: My design is capped at TL 15. So if a Collector E (EP 500) yields a Potential of 3 at TL 16, I'm stopped at TL 15. There are limits out there in the Extents, viewers. That is, unless you go off the canon reservation.

On page 337 of the BBB, omitted from T5.09, there's a formula for calculating the potential of a drive:

Drive Rating (potential) = 2 * EP/hull tonnage (optionally multiply by stage efficiency)

This formula appears to match the tables in T5.09.

I'd just pick a Collector with enough EP to meet or exceed the jump drive EP.

I have a similar question from what may be a different angle (and which is affected by the revisions between T5.09 and T5.1):

I'm trying to recreate the canon Annic Nova as written in DA1, using T5 (and cribbing solar panels from MongT since I can't find solar panel rules in T5). From a game mechanics standpoint, it has a Collector-2 and a Collector-3. The uncertainty is how TL stage effects apply between TL 15 and 16.

The question is whether a slightly-oversized TL 15 Early Collector-3 (Standard is TL 16, per T5.1 CB2 p.76) can have a rating of 3, or whether TL limits it to Collector 2.7 so it can't support a Jump-3 regardless of its output power.

Or is it necessary to instead use a Prototype Collector-4 (C-3.2 after TL stage effects), sized to supply C-3 power output?

The first option (agorski's reply) means that at TL 15, a Collector-3 is 11% larger than a Standard one. The second means it's 2.5 times as large as Standard.

If it's the first option, Annic Nova (as written, not as-retconned) is TL 15 and the authorities would have been ok with letting the player characters keep it after the events DA1.

If it's the second, the (small) size of the Collectors mean the Annic Nova (again, as-written) must be at least TL 16 and wouldn't have been handed back to the player characters

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You can use either the standard drive potential table or an EP calculation.

Standard drive potential table: The resulting potential is then modified by the tech stage efficiency. See B2 p135 table C. Short answer: Yes you need a Prototype drive.

EP calculation: Calculate the needed EP for the hull size and potential, divide by tech stage efficiency, this is how many EP the raw drive has to produce. See B3 p63 and B2 p76 table X. Short answer: You need an oversized Early drive.



The standard drive potential table is a simplified version of the EP calculation and they give the same result without tech stages. Either is correct as far as I know.

The discrepancy between the results is basically that the EP calculation is exact, whereas the drive potential table has just a few pre-calculated values that may not fit exactly.

The question is whether a slightly-oversized TL 15 Early Collector-3 (Standard is TL 16, per T5.1 CB2 p.76) can have a rating of 3, or whether TL limits it to Collector 2.7 so it can't support a Jump-3 regardless of its output power.

Collector-3 is a TL-16 technology, tech stage Early makes that available at TL-15, so it should be possible. The drive potential table is just not able to produce all possible values, just a few pre-calculated values.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Using the EP calculation I get something like this:

"C Plant" is Collector.

TL-15  A-FU03                        Ergo 2   Comfort 4    Demand 0        Agility -1
       Trader                        Total:           0         265        Stability 0
SYSTEM                                    #        DTON        COST      
                                                                         
Hull                                                600                  
                                                                         
Jump Field: Jump Bubble                                                    D=402 m, Flash 7
J Drive J      J-3, 900 EP                1          50          50      
J Drive F      J-2, 600 EP                1          35          35      
Ear C Plant K  C 3, 900 EP                1         110         110      
C Plant F      C 2, 600 EP                1          70          35

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Using the drive table I get:

TL-15  A-FU03                        Ergo 2   Comfort 4    Demand 0        Agility -1
       Trader                        Total:           0         806        Stability 0
SYSTEM                                    #        DTON        COST      
                                                                         
Hull                                                600                  
                                                                         
Jump Field: Jump Bubble                                                    D=402 m, Flash 7
J Drive J      J-3, 900 EP                1          50          50      
J Drive F      J-2, 600 EP                1          35          35      
Pro C Plant M  C 3, 960 EP                1         260         650      
C Plant F      C 2, 600 EP                1          70          35

 

[Grav_Moped]

Cool.

So ANNIC NOVA could plausibly have been TL 15 as-written (using the formula rather than the table).

It means the "missing" Pinnace (that would have been parked in the cargo bay dock) never existed, but pretty much everything else fits. The Collector-3 component of the C-drives is just larger in ways that don't show up on the deck plans and the rest can stay as-is.

And as I noted elsewhere, it acts as described in DA1 because it uses solar panels and batteries (from MongT) as its power supply for non-Jump power.

The 1 week charge time from T5 matches the 1-6 weeks stated in DA 1 if that duration is a range based on wear status rather than a 1D roll for each recharge attempt.

The solar power system needs to be near a star to work. The Collector doesn't, but the previous crew either didn't know this or didn't care (in either case, it's not in the ship's operations manual...).

It could have used a small fusion power plant instead of the solar setup, but didn't for unspecified reasons.

IMTU (at least tentatively) it's because expo drive doesn't work if you're running a fusion powerplant when you Jump. This doesn't affect normal Jump technology, just the exponential link drives.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And as I noted elsewhere, it acts as described in DA1 because it uses solar panels and batteries (from MongT) as its power supply for non-Jump power.

Yes, but note that batteries that can power the ship for 60 days are quite massive. I don't think that will quite fit.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You can always cheat a bit and carry the pinnaces externally (outside the hull in grapples). Fits reasonably with the original. Then you have roughly the right amount of space.


Something like this:

TL-15  A-FU03                        Ergo 2   Comfort 4    Demand 0        Agility -1
       Trader                        Total:           0         332        Stability 0
SYSTEM                                    #        DTON        COST      
                                                                         
Hull                                                600                  
                                                                         
External Craft                           80                                  0  External Craft 
Total Drive Capacity                    680                                  0  Over/undertonnage: Agility ±0
                                                                         
Jump Field: Jump Bubble                                                    D=402 m, Flash 7
J Drive L      J-3, 1100 EP               1          60          60      
J Drive G      J-2, 700 EP                1          40          40      
Ear C Plant M  C 3, 1080 EP               1         130         130      
C Plant G      C 2, 700 EP                1          80          40      
                                                                         
                                                                         
Cargo                                               218                  

                                                                         
Carried Craft                                                            
Grapple Pinnace 40 Dt                     2           4          24

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I get something like this. Adjust for the abnormally large computer and the (hand-waived) power system, you get into the right ballpark?

TL-15  A-FU03                        Ergo 2   Comfort 4    Demand 0        Agility -1
       Trader                        Total:           0         334        Stability 0
SYSTEM                                    #        DTON        COST      
                                                                         
Hull                                                600                  
Config: Unstreamlined                                            17      
Structure: Plate SuperDense    AV=15 ( 150 vs Blast, 3000 vs Heat/Beam, 150 vs Pres, 1500 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )      
Coating: Reflec                AV= 0 ( 1500 vs Heat/Beam  )      
Armour Std Anti-Rad                       1                          AV=15 ( 150 vs Blast, 1500 vs H/B, 1500 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )      
Landing Skids Tarmac                                                     
Lifters Installed                                                 3      
                                                                         
External Craft                           80                                  0  External Craft 
Total Drive Capacity                    680                                  0  Over/undertonnage: Agility ±0
                                                                         
Jump Field: Jump Bubble                                                    D=402 m, Flash 7
J Drive L      J-3, 1100 EP               1          60          60      
J Drive G      J-2, 700 EP                1          40          40      
Ear C Plant M  C 3, 1080 EP               1         130         130      
C Plant G      C 2, 700 EP                1          80          40      
                                                                         
                                                                         
Console, Control Gen C+S=14               5          10           1        Brain: INT=4, EDU=2
Console, Operati Gen C+S=14               8          16           1        Brain: INT=4, EDU=2
Computer Gen m/3                          1           3           5      
                                                                         
Sensors                                                                  
Mod AR Surf Commu-10 +12A+7 PA(           1                       2        
Mod AR Surf EMS-14 +16A+7 PA(El           1                       2        ACS S=7
Gen AR Surf Visor-15 +15A-- P(P           1                       2        ACS S=5
Mod AR Surf Neutr-12 +14A-- P(G           1                       2        ACS S=7
                                                                         
Crew:                                     4                              
Stateroom for 1                           8          16           1      
Freshers Shared                           3           2           2      
Common Areas                             15          15                  
Life Support:                                                            
Med Console                               1           1           1      
Life Support, Standard 200%               2           2           2        480 person-days
                                                                         
Standard Air Lock                         6                              
                                                                         
Cargo                                               221                  
                                                                         
Weapons                                                                  
Mod Vd T4 Beam-15 +20 H:4 Def+4           2           2           4      
                                                                         
Carried Craft                                                            
Grapple Pinnace 40 Dt                     2           4          24      
                                                                         
                                                                         
                                       Crew    Consoles      Panels      
Crew                                 8               13          21      
Bridge Crew                          2    0                              
    Pilot                                 1           1           1      
    Astrogator                            1           1           0      
    Sensor Ops                            0           1           4      
Engineer                             3    1                              
    Engineer                              1           6          11      
    Maintenance                           1                              
Service Crew                         0    0                              
    Operations                            0           0           1      
Gunner                               0    0                              
    Gunner                                0           3           2      
Flight Crew                          3                1           2

 

[Grav_Moped]

Batteries: I'm trying to convert MongT Power Points to HG Energy Points and they really don't translate well. And then there's MongT's SIX MINUTE combat turns...

Basic housekeeping power draw is 20 power points per 100Td. Given 6 minute combat turns, that's 200 power point-hours per hour. Using TL 12 batteries (best available) at 60 PP/ton, 1 day of baseline power requires 80% of the hull tonnage! (80Td of battery per 100Td.)

I'm invoking the T5 This is Absurd! mechanic, adding one die to the pool, and throwing... MongT's High Guard rulebook across the room. This isn't meant for long-term energy storage, it's a combat tool analogous to using using HG Jump Capacitors to carry over unused EP between turns (which you can't do, RAW). I still need plausible battery rules!

CT HG Jump capacitors that can hold 1 EP-day (72EP, at 3EP-hours per hour) are only 2Td, or 2% of hull tonnnage. Whether or not they can hold that capacity for weeks is a side issue, because I'd expect long-term storage batteries to have even higher energy density than capacitors -- as they do today, with the tradeoff being vastly slower charge/discharge rates.


Anyhow, I'd started in with the following paragraph, but after looking at MongT batteries it's kind of pointless:
60 days is a bit excessive in terms of energy requirements. The maximum time between Collector deployments would be if the ship did 5 Jump-1 consecutively; that's 37 days if there's a half-day layover between Jumps (and over multiple jumps, average duration will converge on the mean duration of 7 days). As soon as the sails and solar panels come out, it's covering its power draw and recharging the batteries. I can see a use for the extra endurance, but it's a luxury rather than a critical necessity.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You are looking in vain for a Traveller design system that allows batteries to replace fusion power plants for weeks on end.

You just have to house-rule it. Note that it will probably lead to ships generally not needing power plants, hence fuel. It will be a different place compared to the canonical Third Imperium.

60 days is a bit excessive in terms of energy requirements.

JTAS#1 specified 60 days for the Annic Nove.

 

[Condottiere]

1. If you don't mind minimal acceleration (never been clarified) coasting towards your destination, you can unfurl the solar panelling.

2. Or you can pulse jet towards your destination, and constantly furling and unfurling the solar panelling.

 

[Grav_Moped]

You are looking in vain for a Traveller design system that allows batteries to replace fusion power plants for weeks on end.

You just have to house-rule it. Note that it will probably lead to ships generally not needing power plants, hence fuel. It will be a different place compared to the canonical Third Imperium.

I'm not trying to make power plants obsolete! The point is to cover housekeeping power only. If a ship wants to do anything beyond merely drifting in space, batteries aren't going to be enough.

A LBB5 power plant can make more than 2000 EP-hours of energy from 1Td of fuel. Even counting the power plant, the worst case example of a LBB2 Size A power plant and its one-month (20Td) fuel allocation in a Type S provides 90EP-hours per Td -- the fuel alone is 100EP/ton. That's close to Jump Capacitor storage (33EP-turns/ton vs capacitors' 36EP-turns/ton) but still inferior, and worse with increased duration.

In thinking about it, I wonder if the game's designers did that calculation too when they set the capacity of Jump Capacitors? Someone mentioned "ambient cells" in T5, and maybe Striker has decent battery tech, but it doesn't seem to be something any of the Traveller rules sets really contemplated. So yes, it's likely going to have to be done through house rules, and the best you can manage with those is to keep it plausible and non-game-breaking. High cost and limits to charge/discharge rates should keep batteries from replacing fusion fuel.

I think you could cut the minimum power requirement for an box drifting in space to Pn=1 -- but for a hull containing only the volume that needs environmental and gravity control (this includes fuel tanks!)

The point isn't to replace fusion power plants in general, but to allow Collector-drive ships to operate without ever having to take on fuel. It's sort of a moot point since they'd have to stop for supplies eventually anyhow, and most places with life support supplies will also have fuel sources.

JTAS#1 specified 60 days for the Annic Nove.

Fair enough. I still think it's excessive, but it's a better match to the source material.

 

[Condottiere]

1. Batteries are solid state, and I haven't noticed an requirement for specific maintenance personnel.

2. One power point for basic ship systems per five tonnes, minimum one per ten; per six minute round.

3. That's two hundred forty power points per ten tonnes per day, or sixteen hundred eighty per week for ten tonnes.

4. Technological level twelve batteries have sixty power points per tonne, so that's twenty eight tonnes for sixteen hundred eighty.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I'm not trying to make power plants obsolete!

Rule changes often have unintended consequences.

I think you could cut the minimum power requirement for an box drifting in space to Pn=1 ...

Agreed.

The point isn't to replace fusion power plants in general, but to allow Collector-drive ships to operate without ever having to take on fuel.

But that would be the effect?

If, in your house rules, jump drives does not depend on fusion power plants, regular ships wouldn't need power plants either.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Rule changes often have unintended consequences.



Agreed.



But that would be the effect?

If, in your house rules, jump drives does not depend on fusion power plants, regular ships wouldn't need power plants either.

In my house rules (which aren't really house rules, but an alternate interpretation of the rules as written), they do in fact require power plants. (Collector and Antimatter power are exceptions.)

They don't need the power plant for most of the Jump Drive power, but they do need it to "top off" the Jump Capacitors in the last few minutes before Jump. (Sometimes they don't need to, if the fast-burn reaction runs a little hotter than usual -- but it's dangerous to count on that.)

The reason Collectors don't need power plants is that what they blast into the Jump Drive can be precisely metered (either by shutting off the flow or diverting it overboard).

 

[Grav_Moped]

1. Batteries are solid state, and I haven't noticed an requirement for specific maintenance personnel.

2. One power point for basic ship systems per five tonnes, minimum one per ten; per six minute round.

3. That's two hundred forty power points per ten tonnes per day, or sixteen hundred eighty per week for ten tonnes.

4. Technological level twelve batteries have sixty power points per tonne, so that's twenty eight tonnes for sixteen hundred eighty.

MongT Power Points don't translate cleanly into CT/T5 Energy Points. Still, on their own terms, a 100Td ship's basic power requirements use 20 power points every 6 minutes. That's 200 per hour, 4800 per day, or 33,600 per week.

Using TL 12 batteries, one day of basic power for a 100Td ship needs 80Td of batteries (4800/60).

So you could build a 100Td ship that was just a bridge, a console, a stateroom, and the rest as a battery bank -- and you'd have to recharge those batteries once a day.

Ok, there's an emergency power-down rule (MongT 2nd ed, HG, p. 16) that allows cutting nonessential uses to get down to half the 20EP basic power requirement. So you get two days out of those 80Td of batteries before life support starts failing... Hooray?

Seriously, those particular batteries aren't meant to be used that way. It's just a tool for shifting unused energy points into future combat turns. They're like Jump Capacitors in LBB5, except LBB5 (errata) prohibits doing that (and Jump Caps hold a LOT more energy per ton).

There's another set of "batteries" in the rules. Reverse engineering "Emergency Power" (MongT 2nd ed, p. 35) might help. It gives 30 minutes (5 turns) of 90% of a ship's normal power output for 10% of the size of that power plant. One hour of 100% output requires 22% of power plant size. In a 100Td hull for just basic power requirements, at TL 15 the powerplant is 1Td. 22% of that is 0.22Td. 12 hours of that (which is 24 hours when powered down as above) takes 2.64Td for one day at half power. So, best case it's 18.48% of tonnage for a week of TL 15 "emergency power" -- and I'm pretty sure that double-counts some energy savings in there somewhere. At least it's not as preposterous as the official "batteries" rule!

 

[whartung]

FF&S has battery rules.

At TL15, it's 3MW/hr per ton.

So, if you're talking 24hrs, it's 8 tons per MW of power.

In TNE, extended life support is 0.0028MW per dTon. For a 1000 ton ship, that's 2.8MW.

2.8MW * 8 dTon/MW = 22.4 tons of battery per day for life support. 156.8 dTons for a full 7 days, 15% of the hull.

 

[Condottiere]

1. I don't know if this was deliberately thought out in advance, but at default you can't stuff enough batteries into a starship to energize simple life support for a week.

2. You could turn most of it off, and just keep on the oxygen scrubbers, though since it's not a separate entry, hard to say how much energy that would require.

3. Though there are rules for how long you can live when the life support is turned off, which could be supplemented with oxygen bottles and vacuum suits.

 

[Grav_Moped]

1. I don't know if this was deliberately thought out in advance, but at default you can't stuff enough batteries into a starship to energize simple life support for a week.

It might have been considered as a game mechanic, but it seems quite likely that real-world power requirements for life support weren't taken into account when they did so. The actual requirements turn out to be a rounding error if you're measuring with 9MW* MongT power points, or statistical noise in 250 MW CT Energy Points.

2. You could turn most of it off, and just keep on the oxygen scrubbers, though since it's not a separate entry, hard to say how much energy that would require.

We have a real-world example: the International Space Station. Based on pressurized volume (excluding the solar panels and whatnot) it's about 68Td, and averages 102 kilowatts power use. That's the average solar panel output over time; it has batteries to carry it over during the 1/3 of its orbit that it's in the Earth's shadow. 102KW is about 0.00041 EP or 0.012 PP. (Not a typo!)

3. Though there are rules for how long you can live when the life support is turned off, which could be supplemented with oxygen bottles and vacuum suits.

They would be useful as drama-producing game mechanics, but probably not too helpful if you're trying to make house rules to design/simulate a minimum-power life support system.




*MongT Power Points don't translate cleanly into CT Energy Points because MongT allocates power a little differently (M-drive and baseline power are separate line-items, weapon power is slightly different even when adjusted for duration). 1 EP is roughly 30 PP, and 1EP-hour is about 90PP-hours.

Also, the MongT XBoat is a broken design. Batteries power the Jump Drive only, with nothing left over for baseline power. Rules as written, a 6 minute (1 turn) delay after disconnecting from the tender makes it unable to do more than a Jump-3 due to lack of power.

 

[Condottiere]

Going by Chartered Aliens Two, a seven and a half kay tonne meson gun may consume five hundred gigawatts of power, and that is listed at a thousand power points.

So, one power point would be half a gigawatt.