T5 Fame and Relict Clones

[The Pakkrat]

This question may boil down to individual Referee preference in Your Traveller⁵ Universe, but here goes:

Should a Relict Clone, a Force Grown copy of the original, be allowed to glean or sponge off some, none or all of its progenitor's Fame?

Here are some reason why the answer is No:

1. Tech Levels are high enough on the progenitor's homeworld that everyone knows that the clone is not the progenitor. Society has gotten used to cloning so that they make no misconceptions or wrong assumptions about the Relict Clone.

2. Society has evolved or grown such that they are ready to move on from the glitz and glamour of the progenitor and truly want to see what the Relict Clone can do on its own lifetime.

3. The progenitor's Fame is infamy and everyone has suffered from the antics of the original, such that hopes are high that the Relict Clone will be a better person this time around.

I thought of some reasons why the answer is Yes:

1. Society assumes that the apple does not fall far from the tree. The Relict Clone has all or most of the memories of the progenitor and the engram will write such habits, demeanor, behavior and preferences upon the Clone.

2. Society just can't get enough of the Famous progenitor and wants more of the same from the Relict Clone.

3. The Relict Clone chooses to take up the same Career and lifestyle as the progenitor and rides all the inheritance and privilege to its fullest.

Here is an example from My Traveller Universe:
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In tracking down her younger brother, Dame Qithka Cannagrrh entered the Spinward Marches and decided to drop the funds for a contracted Relict Clone. As an Entertainer - author and actress - and Fame-20 (famous throughout Gvurrdon Sector), she knew things were heating up towards the Fifth Frontier War. She just didn't know the exact date War would begin. Her attaché, Uthka Varzeekh was the only person who knew of the Life Insurance expenditure back in 1106. The contract was set and the Dame went on from the remote office of the Cloning company, (I haven't decided which megacorporation it was yet), to find her brother.

As it is in her bio in another thread, the Dame and Uthka had many adventures. They transmitted Qithka's field correspondence back home through the magazine she worked for, Kfan Uzangou and maintained her popularity in covering what she could of the Fifth Frontier War, the Darrian Confederation, the Sword Worlds and District 268. It made quite a splash to cover her brother's and Uthka's banishment by none other than the Archduke of Deneb Norris.

______

Now when Dame Qithka Cannagrrh is on her deathbed, getting her personality engram scanned a final time for packaging along with her personal belongings to ship to the contracted Cloning facility, (Vincennes I believe it will be) she dies and her Death Certificate goes with the package.

Will Qithka Cannagrrh01 wake and be able to take up her previous life's Fame-20 and go from there? Will she want to is a more interesting question, but let's keep it simple for now. What kind of reception will she receive back home on Dzuerongvoe / Dzen / Gvurrdon? Is Cloning, especially Relicts a no-no to the ethnic Vargr of the Extents? If so, will Qithka Cannagrrh01 have a fight for the right to life on her claws?

Social mores aside, I have not found rules in Traveller⁵ that present a clear answer to the Fame question.

 

[pendragonman]

IMTU, Clones as life insurance only come to life after the progenitor passes, and the clone is implanted with the last complete on file as sometimes the final scan is attempted during trauma emergencies scans can be incomplete.

Clones as life insurance are expensive, so the vast majority of sofonts won't have the opportunity to get such as policy. Further, I have the companies that offer the clones to be very, very private. NO advertisement, the cloning companies often just make individual offers on a very personal visit to a prospective customer. Like the person who offers the elixir of immortality in "Death Becomes Her".

It is then entirely up to the person being cloned to decide if they take up their old life again or start a new one since the "normal" physical age on the clone body is around 18-or the starting age for new characters. Since DNA, retinal scans, etc will all be the same, and the clones imprinted memories will include any password safeguards the old life would be able to return if they chose.

However, fame fades if it is not fed with fresh meat. Unless there is a way to explain the sudden replacement of an old campaigner (singer, reporter, etc...) with the same name and the same skills the vast majority of the population will not accept the clone as the same person, so a public identity change at clone activation is likely more acceptable.

Now, suppose the clone policy is on a person who is an honors graduate from the military academy, and they get killed in the first term or two out of the academy, so they are young at replacement. Then why not just take up the old identity? Who would know besides mom and dad?

 

[kilemall]

Hmm, torn on this one.

My first thought is that a clone would be considered as a son or daughter of a celebrity, interesting to see if they exhibit the same abilities and talent that garnered the original fame, but a recognition it's not the same person (if nothing else endocrinology and vigor of youth).

Could be an easy model for inheritance law/rights too.

But then the game ref part of me kicks in, and thinks this is like psionics, one helluva power-up, and there needs to be some game price beyond mere megacredits.

I could see a LOT of cultures rejecting any special rights, privileges and/or recognition of clones, and it being an outlaw practice in many polities or worlds.

 

[Ulsyus]

However, fame fades if it is not fed with fresh meat. Unless there is a way to explain the sudden replacement of an old campaigner (singer, reporter, etc...) with the same name and the same skills the vast majority of the population will not accept the clone as the same person, so a public identity change at clone activation is likely more acceptable.

Now, suppose the clone policy is on a person who is an honors graduate from the military academy, and they get killed in the first term or two out of the academy, so they are young at replacement. Then why not just take up the old identity? Who would know besides mom and dad?

If the purpose of the clone is to continue the life of the deceased, and the memory emplacement works as designed, the Relict would know that they're the new version of X. The same factors that may cause the previous version of X to continue living their life or change it would affect the Relict. It is in effect the same person, just in a different body.

But the point about having to feed fame is critical. Look at all the old stars of stage and screen from the 50's and 60's. They're well known today still, but they don't rate much of a mention in the vast majority of media outlets.

 

[David Johansen]

Given the rarity and ethical issues involved it's entirely possible that a clone would have increased fame. I suggest rolling flux!

 

[The Pakkrat]

Psionics and Relict Clones

Without starting a new thread on Relict Clones, I ask a new question and am eager to hear preferential answers.

Upon inception/iteration/rising of a Relict Clone, should the donor's personality be scanned and found to house and remember their testing and training (however many Stages they progressed), will the Relict Clone then Awaken too?

I think not, though the Relict Clone will remember their time as a Psion and what they did prior to the personality scan and recording. The Relict Clone will remember the steps to return to a Psionic Institute and the Stages required of them. However, the Relict Clone may choose not to go down that path in this life, be it a newborn preference, a change in society, or some other element that turns the Relict Clone away from taking up their previous life's disciplines, (read: Empress Wave).

So, the What, Why, and Where to re-attain psionics is remembered, (unless erased or modified just before iteration), but the capability is once again dormant. The current mind is closed.

"I remember being psionic, but my mind refuses to open to my old life's capabilities, Doctor. I am still considering trying my luck again."

What are your thoughts?

From the mobile Psionic Institute Coyotl at Engzoerz (Knoellighz 1140), this is the Pakkrat transmitting this query through private channels.

 

[Ulsyus]

If a technology is advanced enough to map every memory connection in the brain, is the only thing that stops it from being able to identify the connections that lead to psionic ability a plot decision?

 

[robject]

Given the rarity and ethical issues involved it's entirely possible that a clone would have increased fame. I suggest rolling flux!

Unless the referee is setting a game up in a certain way ("you lack the Fame of your previous body" vs "congrats! your aging rockstar has a new lease on life, and chicks dig you more than ever!" or something in between), David's suggestion is a reasonable course.

 

[robject]

Upon inception/iteration/rising of a Relict Clone, should the donor's personality be scanned and found to house and remember their testing and training (however many Stages they progressed), will the Relict Clone then Awaken too?

A referee may Hedge: "studies are inconclusive, and besides, psionics is verboten".

A referee may Rule. "Normally, no, psionics does not transfer. In YOUR case, we'll say you retain them, although nobody knows why..." or "Of course psionics transfers."

Regardless, unless Marc has a reason to make it one way or 'tother, I think it's useful for the referee to use it at the speed of plot.

 

[Ulsyus]

Unless the referee is setting a game up in a certain way ("you lack the Fame of your previous body" vs "congrats! your aging rockstar has a new lease on life, and chicks dig you more than ever!" or something in between), David's suggestion is a reasonable course.

So an old rocker could turn up in a new body and the kids would think that's great? Isn't the entertainment industry generally regularly renewing itself? How would that change in the 3I? There's be some artists who'd have widespread fame, but of they're from outside one's own culture, how much are they noticed locally (think K-pop in western 1W nations). Then throw in a difference of a generation or two. I'm not so sure that there's a quick and easy answer to this.

 

[kilemall]

So an old rocker could turn up in a new body and the kids would think that's great? Isn't the entertainment industry generally regularly renewing itself? How would that change in the 3I? There's be some artists who'd have widespread fame, but of they're from outside one's own culture, how much are they noticed locally (think K-pop in western 1W nations). Then throw in a difference of a generation or two. I'm not so sure that there's a quick and easy answer to this.

Well, keep in mind the famous entertainer's audience is likely cloning too, you could have generational clades that stick to their cultural heyday even within the same species/planet/interstellar polity.

Like this music video, except really long-reaching and for 100-200+ years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K38xNqZvBJI

 

[jcrocker]

Flux would be a good way to solve it. If we're going with music artists, we can all think of one or two that we'd like to see cloned and back on tour.

And we can think of many others that, if they were cloned, we'd think "for the love of pete, what do we have to do to get rid of that guy?"

 

[Ulsyus]

And we can think of many others that, if they were cloned, we'd think "for the love of pete, what do we have to do to get rid of that guy?"

Are you thinking of that glam-rock Vargr Gveri Glitter, famous for his how-in-the-name-of-an-event-horizon-was-that-popular song "Do You Wanna Be In My Pack?"?

 

[pendragonman]

Are you thinking of that glam-rock Vargr Gveri Glitter, famous for his how-in-the-name-of-an-event-horizon-was-that-popular song "Do You Wanna Be In My Pack?"?

Great. Just great. Now it is back stuck in my head.

 

[Ulsyus]

Great. Just great. Now it is back stuck in my head.

Roll against SAN please. Different system, I know, but possibly appropriate here.

 

[pendragonman]

Roll against SAN please. Different system, I know, but possibly appropriate here.

Crap. I just finished PhD. My SAN is low...

[roll]2d6[\roll]

 

[SanDragon]

Roll against SAN please. Different system, I know, but possibly appropriate here.

Nope!

Scouts get SAN!

 

[robject]

U1 * So an old rocker could turn up in a new body and the kids would think that's great?
U2 * Isn't the entertainment industry generally regularly renewing itself?
U3 * How would that change in the 3I?
U4 * Then throw in a difference of a generation or two. What do THEY think?
I'm not so sure that there's a quick and easy answer to this.

These are GREAT essay questions. If everyone came up with answers independently to these five, then shared them here, we would have a RICH set of options for games.

There's be some artists who'd have widespread fame, but of they're from outside one's own culture, how much are they noticed locally (think K-pop in western 1W nations)?

(Note that this is answered by the FAME characteristic. Its magnitude defines the reach of one's fame.)

 

[robject]

Roll against SAN please. Different system, I know, but possibly appropriate here.

That was imported into T5, so that's a valid call. Scouts, just to remind everyone, tend to have lower SAN.

Now I have to work on the lyrics (in the original Gvegh) for "Do You Wanna Be In My Pack?" I'm thinking it's going to be a combination of sunshine-pop with some early ELO (which includes a little Beatlesqueness).

*Update* Rats, I lack a Gvegh grammar. Anyone have a grammatical sketch handy? I'm NOT going to do the Trokh translation... abominations.

 

[The Pakkrat]

Relict Clones and the Law

At what Law Levels do Relict Clones become recognized, registered, taxed, regulated and eventually made illegal?

What sophont rights, aside from being the heir of their parent pattern, do they have? Is such based on Government or again Law Level?

What policy would various Major and Minor races have in place for Relict Clones? Are the cloned bodies of the parent pattern the property of the megacorporation who has Fast-Grown them after selling Life Insurance to the parent?

Example: Qithka01 is the Relict Clone of her parent pattern mother, the late Dame Qithka Cannagrrh. She inherits everything the original bequeaths to her. Yet, the Vilani megacorporation who provided the service claims that while the consciousness-personality inside the furry, white body of the Vargr Relict Clone is the property of the client, the flesh is the copyrighted, intellectual property of the megacorp. They might claim that at any time, they may put out a recall of Qithka01 so as to maintain their corporate entitiy's good name and reclaim "flawed copies". Where does the Clone itself get a say?

In this topic, there are morals and then there are laws. In Qithka01's case, she woke up on Vincennes (Spinward Marches 1122) in The New Era about a year after her parent mother is confirmed deceased. Would the Clone's birthplace or polity have input on this topic?