T5 Sensors
- Thread starter Supplement Four
- Start date
esampson
SOC-13
That's more of an issue with organization than the sensor systems. I think you need to take that up with all the people who are arguing that the book is well organized instead of placing it in a discussion about sensors.
Well, it's more like it's a little confusing. In later statements you are complaining that it is too high because you're doing this with a mass detector, sort of skipping over the fact that a mass detector, being a world range sensor, would be using 8 dice rather than 4 (which is itself a mistake since a space ranged sensor would only be 3 dice).
Of course a mass detector isn't even capable of detecting a 200 ton merchant from orbit according to page 384, so I wouldn't say that the odds are too high. In fact there is only 1 TL-8 sensor that uses the space range bands, a communicator. Somehow it doesn't seem unreasonable that a reasonably well trained and intelligent operator is able to pick up a communication from a starship at a range of 500 km. In fact I'm pretty sure that over 90% of all communications to the ISS make it through.
Well, what about doing something like using Radar (TL-9) to detect a ship on the ground then? If there's a ton of other ships on the ground then I shouldn't be able to do that with a simple 19 or less on 3 dice, should I? You know what? You're right. You shouldn't. Of course since the sensor rules aren't set up for something like that it's kind of a false argument. Sensor rules are setup for using the sensors to detect something, not necessarily single something out with no context. So you can detect the ship on the ground, but unless there's something special about its radar signature you won't be able to discern it from other similar signatures. You want to use your radar to follow a ship from orbit to see where it lands? Great. You want to use your radar to lock onto a ship on the ground that just fired on you? It can be used to do that as well (but see below). You want to use it to pick out a ship sitting on a barren planet? Again, you can do that (and again, see below). You want to use it to spot a ship that has no noticeable radar difference from hundreds of other ships on the planet? Not so much.
The rules don't let any sensor do any job. You can't use a communicator to identify a ship that's not broadcasting and you can't use radar to identify a ship that doesn't have something to make it especially identifiable to the radar.
As for those 'see belows', you also skipped something. There's an arbitrary modifier that the Referee is allowed to assign. You want to use Radar to spot a ship on a barren planet that is high in metals? That's a modifier. You want to use the radar to scan the entire planet because you've got no idea where on the planet the ship is? That's a modifier. You're trying to use the radar to lock onto the ship that fired on you while there are a lot of other ships around to confuse the issue? That's a modifier.
Are the rules for sensors perfect? Not at all. They are grossly abstracted and that causes all sorts of problems, but those issues have nothing to do with what you are talking about.
In short, yes, your example sounds bad, but only because you are saying that the odds of doing something are pretty easy when the rules say it is impossible and because you are ignoring additional rules that say that even if it were possible it would be more difficult than the base roll.
Actually, I would request that you put a note to this effect in the Errata thread, so I have a reminder to discuss it with Marc directly.
And if anyone wants to tell me they think the book is well-organized... I will kindly disagree with them. I appreciate very much the searchable PDF.
esampson
SOC-13
Sorry. I guess the forums strip out sarcastises.
Maybe we could get them added as custom smilies? :smirk:
2 Points, First you say the task System for sensors is overly complicated and fiddly and then describe the sensor check for a ship on the ground even more complicated and difficult as opposed to the abstract nature as it stands.
Secondly you have described a professional sensor operator using a Mass Sensor which i would think should be able to pick the ship out of a crowd of signals because they know what they are looking for. I see this like a Submarine radar operator seeing all the signals from a convoy and being able to pick out the escort ships from the merchantmen, and the destroyer from the convoy.
Secondly you have described a professional sensor operator using a Mass Sensor which i would think should be able to pick the ship out of a crowd of signals because they know what they are looking for. I see this like a Submarine radar operator seeing all the signals from a convoy and being able to pick out the escort ships from the merchantmen, and the destroyer from the convoy.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I used 4D because of Licheking's post saying that, earlier in the book, there is a -4D modifier to difficulty due to that atmosphere of the world. 8D would be really crazy, I think.
Judging by what you've said here, though, I may have messed up on the example.
Since the Mass Detector is a World Sensor, then the task would be the sensor used to detect things in the sky. I'm quite happy with having a 90% shot to pick out a 200 ton Free Trader in orbit, if LOS is available.
I still balk at the (imo) needless complexity of the task--I'd much prefer something simple (2D + mods for a target number that the Ref can hide, in this case)--but I'd also like to see a clean sensor example.
Can someone more familiar with the T5 rules write out a sensor task, showing all the steps.
How about this: Put a ship in orbit of a world. What task does it need to make to scan an approaching ship that is at Long Range (call it 16 ls).
I didn't see anything about time for the scan, either. Did I miss this?
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I welcome a better example. Obviously, mine has problems (from my first read-through of the Sensors chapter).
The parameters are a ship in orbit, is given an alert by the Ref about an object at 16 ls distance.
(Use any Sensor skill and INT/EDU that you like--I like to use "average" characters in examples. Skill-2? Skill-3? And Stat-7?)
Care to run us through all the steps of the task?
esampson
SOC-13
The difference in 'World range' and 'space range' bands is 5, so it would be -5D.
Actually, if the ship in orbit or on the ground it doesn't matter. A mass sensor cannot detect anything smaller than a Battleship Class Ship at that range. It's just not sensitive enough.
Now, if we assume you are close enough that it is possible then there would be a modifier depending on whether the ship is 'in the clear' or being obscured by other masses.
- Determine range.
- Determine size of object
- Determine sensor being used.
- Make sure that sensor is capable of detecting the object. This involves looking at the chart on page 384-385 to compare the size and range of the target against the sensor as well as making some judgement calls. If the target is underground, behind an obstacle, or on the other side of the planet a Scope can't see it no matter what is rolled. Likewise a communicator can't detect a ship that isn't broadcasting.
- Evaluate any modifiers that there might be. Detecting an object through a grav sensor while it is sitting on a large mass of roughly comparable density is going to have some pretty good penalties. Again, this requires some judgement.
- Calculate the difficulty. This is the TL of the sensor (not the minimum TL of the sensor but the TL it was built at) + character ability + S-R (but only if S>R) + mods.
- Roll a number of dice equal to the range. One of the dice is rolled by the Ref in secret.
16 ls is about 12 times the distance from Earth to the Moon. While the ship might technically be in orbit of the planet that is still an excessive distance. Let's shorten that up to 1 ls (roughly the range to the moon) and assume that the ship is a TL-15 ship with an Advanced EMS sensor with an Antenna mount (+4). Our operator has a skill of 3 and an EDU of 9.
Since the ship is an Adventure Class Ship its size is a 7 and 1 ls is a range of 6. First thing we do is look at page 385. Can an EM Sensor detect an ACS sized object at range 6? Yes it can. Also is it an appropriate sensor for the job? Again, yes it is, so no problems there. Since the ship is making a nice simple approach there's no penalties to the roll, though there is the +4 for the advanced antenna design.
So the difficulty is 15 (TL) + 12 (C + K) + 1 (S - R) + 4 (Mod)= 32
The range is 6 so the player rolls 5 dice and the Ref rolls 1. The player rolls 4 + 6 + 4 + 5 + 4 = 23. Regardless of what the Ref rolls it is a success. If they rolled poorly and got a 29 then they wouldn't be sure if the information that they were being given was accurate or not since they wouldn't know if the Ref had rolled over a 3 or not.
Similar case but now the ship is a Battleship Class Ship hiding in a heavy debris field around L4. They've powered down to minimum power so they aren't giving off much EM and the debris field gives them excellent cover. The Ref gives them a -10 mod for this (it's a lot of debris). The new difficulty is 15 + 12 + 2 - 6 = 23. Much harder now to find the ship so the players put their EMS in active mode. That gives them an additional +3 so now the difficulty is a 26, but they've just painted a great big bullseye on themselves to the Battleship's EMS which is running in passive mode and which doesn't even have to roll to find the players (pg. 380).
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I love (and I mean LOVE) the detail. I like how the TL of the sensor is taken into account as well as other factors. I'm a simulationist at heart, and this is right down my alley.
But, the presentation...figuring all that in a game. Lots of adding this and subtracting that. Man, it seems like a game bogger. I wonder how long it would take to play out a sensor encounter in a real game.
I keep thinking that the awesome information could be put to use in an easier, simpler, more intuitive way.
esampson
SOC-13
There's going to be a lot less adding and subtracting in practice than in the example. For instance, rather than viewing the difficulty as 15 + 12 + S-R + (4 + other mods) most players are probably going to just view it as 31 + Mods. 19 points are never ever going to change unless the sensor itself changes and another 12 points will only change if the stats of the character changes. S-R will just roll into the category of 'mods' along with the active sensor bonus, extended sensor bonus, and referee assigned modifiers.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Someone still has to figure it the first time, yes? And, S-R must be figured, at least once.
For a Ref, prepped for a Sensor encounter, I'm sure it's easier. The Ref will already know much of the task and probably record it.
But, what I'm concerned about is impromptu play. The Ref gets a wild hair and surprises the players with a blip detection. The Ref makes up range, on the spot, but now, all the calculations start.
S-R?
How many dice makes up the difficulty, based on the range. Look that up.
What's the TL of the sensor? Look it up.
And, when the throw is made, we're not done figuring. We've got a large handful of dice to count before we check to see if the task was successful.
Man, that seems like a lot to do for a single sensor task. And, we've got to do it all over again, with some different numbers, if the players use a different type of sensor for additional/different information on the target.
esampson
SOC-13
Sure. And for 4E D&D you have to sit down at some point and calculate stat bonus + 1/2 level + weapon bonus + special bonuses (racial, specialization, etc.) the first time.
But once the game is underway it is pretty much the calculated number plus situational modifiers. Occasionally something will happen that will change the numbers on a more permanent basis (characters level up, get a new magic weapon, get some sort of semi-permanent stat bonus, etc.) and the number is recalculated. The base sensor roll is pretty much the same thing.
Ok... I see where S4 is going, and if I'm right, he's just sold me.
In MegaTraveller (ok, the love-hate relationship between me and that edition is still hard to break), ship sensors had ratings. You put them right in the design, so you could use them quick. For example:
Sensors: PassEMS=Interstellar×2, ActEMS=FarOrbit×2, Densitometer=High, NeutrinoDect=1Gw; ActObjScan=Rout, ActObjPin=Rout, PasObjScan=Form, PasObjPin=Form, PasEngScan=Rout, PasEngPin=Form.
Now, he's wanting something similar for T5 which basically would give something similar to ActObjScan=2D, ActObjPin=2D, PasObjScan=4D, PasObjPin=4D, PasEngScan=2D, PasEngPin=4D.
I think. How bad did I miss?
In MegaTraveller (ok, the love-hate relationship between me and that edition is still hard to break), ship sensors had ratings. You put them right in the design, so you could use them quick. For example:
Sensors: PassEMS=Interstellar×2, ActEMS=FarOrbit×2, Densitometer=High, NeutrinoDect=1Gw; ActObjScan=Rout, ActObjPin=Rout, PasObjScan=Form, PasObjPin=Form, PasEngScan=Rout, PasEngPin=Form.
Now, he's wanting something similar for T5 which basically would give something similar to ActObjScan=2D, ActObjPin=2D, PasObjScan=4D, PasObjPin=4D, PasEngScan=2D, PasEngPin=4D.
I think. How bad did I miss?
and this assumes your not rolling the 1D at a time, the actual roll would be Ref rolls their uncertainty dice, then the sensor operator rolls 1D you now have a result for range 2, ref tells operator that there's nothing there, sensor operator rolls another dice, this is repeated until they fail the roll or they discover the object that signaled the alert or reached the maximum range for the sensor. This takes longer to write down than implement, i have been using these rules for months now and a typical uncertain sensor check from an alert takes less than a minute, and my players tend to do sensor and communications sweeps whenever an alert is made but this is then handled by 2 different players giving me their results until i either tell them what sprung the alert or that they found nothing. I have also sprung alerts on them when nothings there so that they don't always know what they may be scanning for a lump of space debris or a pirate ship or a normal merchantman.
I think we actually end up with a number not a number of dice, eg EM Sensor 32.
The "32" is made up of the "constants", i.e. TL, skill, characteristic, fixed mods like antenna etc. Note the constants can change, just not very often eg skill increases. Some of these are ship based, others character/operator so each crew member likely to use the sensors may need their own calculations recorded for their ship.
Then when it comes time to use the sensor, we just need to add mods for size-range, any conditional mods the GM wants to add. Then roll the dice for the range, including uncertain dice, with an option of rolling the dice one at a time as the scan works it way through the range bands.
The number does need to be calculated once at the beginning then modified if anything changes. That calculation is not that hard for a one off, and could be done with a simple spreadsheet for those not inclined for headspace additions.
Or you have a group like mine, that just writes in the C+S+K+Sensor TL next to each sensor and use that for most rolls, its calculated once then all i have to do is modify it for each individual situation which i find easy. The only modifier that i have to ask whether they are using or not is if they want to be passive of active on those sensors that require it.
On saying that i did love the old Sensor rules for MT, but i think this system is actually faster and for my group more intuitive.
On saying that i did love the old Sensor rules for MT, but i think this system is actually faster and for my group more intuitive.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
No, you understand what I'm saying.
With MT, you could just look at the scan type and know the difficulty--know what you needed to know. Quick.
With D6 Star Wars, you do the same: Look at the ship's stats. It tells you how many dice to throw, and you're ready to go.
With my CT Sensor rules, you already know that you're rolling Computer Number or less, and range to tango tells you to roll 1D-3D.
But, with T5, in impromptu situations, you're stuck having to figure a lot of stuff for each sensor scan.
Ok, I think Licheking's on to the right track for T5.
Rob (paging Rob.... Rob to the T5 deck, Rob to the T5 deck) is more ACS/BCS than I am, so I want to make sure HE agrees here.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Absolutely. Always record needed info for easy access. That's what I always do with CT personal combat weapon mods--the ones that stay constant are added to gether and placed in the weapon's stats for that character as one modifier. The Range and Armor mod is listed together too. That way, you're just dealing with a couple of mods and not referring to the CT combat charts each attack.
But, still, I think the proceedure is needlessly complicated and could be a lot easier without losing any detail.
The task system is taking several factors into account. Removing some of those factors in an impromptu situation can simplify things.
For example, if the sensing task was subjected to QREBS, I would rate [Size - Range] as "Burden+1" or "Ergonomics-1". In a pinch I would be tempted to ignore it, and only return a null result when the referee knows the target is out of range.
Recording C+S can be useful, if you know who your sensop is. But I suspect the player will know exactly what his character is capable of, if he knows what C+S is for. ("I'm a level 15 sensop!") ("Good for you. Now quit stalling and ROLL.")
Range is quickly learned. I know what orbital range is, for instance, because the progression is based on Very Distant (7). Orbital is next (8), and world-based sensors can't detect ACS at Orbital distance (Size < Range) -- there's my edge case. In a pinch, I think of range bands in the CT way -- just a kind of nonlinear distance between 1 and 12 or whatever -- and toss dice based on that number. BUT I know what the '7's represent, and know the progression is sort-of geometric.
And as far as the sensor goes -- I record the TL of the sensor being used, or else it defaults to the TL of the ship. Ship TL is easy -- it's a nice blanket target number for every component on board. Want to fiddle with the environmental controls on that liner? OK, that's a TL12 component...
So where are we? Referee tells them the range, in bands. Range bands = difficulty, player knows C+S and his ship's TL; i.e. the target number. Player rolls Rd6, compares against TN, and referee tells him what he sees. Referee knows if the target is out of range to begin with; the players might not.
Similar threads
