Take 10, Take 20?
- Thread starter trefalgo
- Start date
Take 10 means instead of rolling d20 for a skill check, you simply assume the roll was a 10, the average result. You can take 10 for most rolls except combat, saves and some under stress skill checks.
Take 20 means instead of rolling a d20 for a skill check, you are taking the time to get the check correct. You assume that you've rolled a 20 on the die and apply the results. You can only do this if there is no bad effect of failing a die roll. In effect you are repeatedly trying a task until you get it perfect. This takes 20 times longer than normal.
The Take 10 and Take 20 are a way of reducing the number of times dice are rolled for non-stress situations. To make the game flow faster. Use at your discresion.
Take 20 means instead of rolling a d20 for a skill check, you are taking the time to get the check correct. You assume that you've rolled a 20 on the die and apply the results. You can only do this if there is no bad effect of failing a die roll. In effect you are repeatedly trying a task until you get it perfect. This takes 20 times longer than normal.
The Take 10 and Take 20 are a way of reducing the number of times dice are rolled for non-stress situations. To make the game flow faster. Use at your discresion.
archhealer
SOC-12
The rules for taking 10 and 20 are listed in the Wizards of the Coast publication, The Players Handbook for Dungeons and Dragons. Also, check out the Travellers Handbook for additional T20 rules for these actions; many Traveller T20 actions allow or disallow taking 10 or 20 in unusual circumstances (the feat CMOS comes to mind)
Er... I think you mean PMOS. CMOS is a computer chip.
archhealer
SOC-12
Ok, normally when I make a typo, the keys are at least on the same half of the keyboard... Not sure what happened there.
Taking 10 is important. Rolling sucks in every day life and for normal situations, taking 10 is the way to go.
Take 10, IMHO, is one of the smartest advances in RPG history. Some games are entirely stupid in the requirements for rolls for action tasks. It's even worse when Automatic success and automatic failures show up. Unless you are using d100000 or something, the probability curve turns out to be ridiculous on these systems. 250 million people go out to drive their car today with Drive-1 skill. 10% of them promptly crash into the other because our game uses d10 as the die and all 1’s are failures. 25 million others though jumped the Grand Canyon in their 4 cylinders because all 10’s are automatically successes. Since driving to work is an easy task, we multiply the skill level by 2 and that determines the probablity of sucess. Thus 80% of the population doesn't make it to work on time.
This is why I burn old RPGs after 5 years. Very cathartic.
Take 10, IMHO, is one of the smartest advances in RPG history. Some games are entirely stupid in the requirements for rolls for action tasks. It's even worse when Automatic success and automatic failures show up. Unless you are using d100000 or something, the probability curve turns out to be ridiculous on these systems. 250 million people go out to drive their car today with Drive-1 skill. 10% of them promptly crash into the other because our game uses d10 as the die and all 1’s are failures. 25 million others though jumped the Grand Canyon in their 4 cylinders because all 10’s are automatically successes. Since driving to work is an easy task, we multiply the skill level by 2 and that determines the probablity of sucess. Thus 80% of the population doesn't make it to work on time.
This is why I burn old RPGs after 5 years. Very cathartic.
notagoodusername
SOC-13
To be fair, though, Taking 10 is just formalising and writing down the old common-sense GM trick of "Not making the players roll for anything that doesn't advance the plot."
I'd bet a lot of the GMs on these boards have been doing for years, even before WotC dreamed up 3rd Ed D&D....
Shane
I'd bet a lot of the GMs on these boards have been doing for years, even before WotC dreamed up 3rd Ed D&D....
Shane
P
Pickles
Guest
The advantage with taking 10 rather than using GM discretion, though, is that the former is still based on the character's skill and the difficulty of the task. I agree that 'take 10' is the best thing d20 has brought to the table (IMHO).
archhealer
SOC-12
Here's a rule that we as players, not GMs, figured out on our own. It's not so much a house rule as a guide to survival. We figured it out back when we played 2nd Ed. DND and I.C.E.
NEVER roll dice unless the GM insists. If you say "I'm going to fix the car" and he doesn't ask for a roll, don't make one, and don't offer or suggest one. If you say "I draw a picture of the man who attacked me", same deal. Don't offer, suggest, or volunteer a die roll unless the GM specifically asks for one.
Why is this? Well, rolls can be abysmal sometimes, even with the best skills. You can fumble (There are few things more embarrasing than critically fumbling an everyday, easy task and winding up injured/arrested/dead). If the GM just says "Ok fine, you do that", there's no chance of such misfortuned happening.
Taking 10 and/or 20 are just ways of formalizing the rule for NOT rolling dice when you don't need to. IMHO, it's less to reduce die rolling for streamlining purposes, it's to save the PCs!!
NEVER roll dice unless the GM insists. If you say "I'm going to fix the car" and he doesn't ask for a roll, don't make one, and don't offer or suggest one. If you say "I draw a picture of the man who attacked me", same deal. Don't offer, suggest, or volunteer a die roll unless the GM specifically asks for one.
Why is this? Well, rolls can be abysmal sometimes, even with the best skills. You can fumble (There are few things more embarrasing than critically fumbling an everyday, easy task and winding up injured/arrested/dead). If the GM just says "Ok fine, you do that", there's no chance of such misfortuned happening.
Taking 10 and/or 20 are just ways of formalizing the rule for NOT rolling dice when you don't need to. IMHO, it's less to reduce die rolling for streamlining purposes, it's to save the PCs!!
What game have you been playing? Except T20, your whole character concept in Traveller lives and dies (dies mostly) by the arbitrary roll of the die.
Forget skills, you don't even know what kind of character you will play in this game since all of that is determined entirely by dice! No point buy, no default array, just random rolls.
Ok, you are all crew members on a starship. Opps.. maybe not. Everyone who tried Scouts died and no one else rolled Pilot-1. You want to play a noble.. opps.. didn't roll a high enough social. What about you, Imperial Marine you say? Nope, couldn't get in, drafted into the nebulous "others."
Ok, let's try this again.. you are all random thugs without a starship. Oh, except the plot requires you to have a starship. Hmmm...
Yeah, I bet a lot of Traveller GMs have avoided un-necessary die rolling.. hahaha
“Should a player truly consider the character so poor as to be beyond help, the low survival rate of the Scout Service may make it the best career choice.”
Hey Frank, your character is totally unsuited to this campaign.. More rolling please!
princelian
SOC-12
When I am running d20 (D&D, Modern, and Call of Cthulhu, to date), if the situation warrants the player character taking 10 and that will succeed, I usually don't even ask for a check. I simply say, "you all cross the narrow ledge without incident," or "you find the hastily-hidden papers taped to the underside of the desk."
In both cases, and despite the possibility of falling off the ledge, I'd let them take 20, if they want to spend the time. In the former case, I'd see that as crawling across, tying themselves together, and otherwise being exceptionally careful. In the latter case, they'd eventually find it anyway (that's a more classical "take 20" example).
Now, if there's sudden gusts of wind in the chasm or sniping duergar hiding above, taking 20's not an option - although I'll let them declare they're attempting it. They'll take their precautions, and then instead of a Balance check, it might be a Reflex save to react to the sudden-and-heretofore-unknown gust or a more difficult Balance check to deal with heavy crossbow bolts appearing in their sides.
If it's obvious that taking 20's not an option - the gusts are continual, for example - then of course I'll just say "you can't do that because of <x> or <y>."
Both mechanisms are, in general, just to save playing time, which has become more and more a precious commodity as the years went by. The only time it's not is the D&D rogue with Skill Mastery or the T20 service character with PMOS. That "take 10 even in stressful situations" can go a *LONG* way to make the character's actions automatic against a lower-level or cross-class opponent.
Take a L12 rogue versus a L12 fighter. The rogue has taken maximum ranks (15) in Hide and Move Silently, has an 18 Dex, and has lost his stealth-bonus cloak to the thessalhydra last session. He has +19 to his H/MS rolls, and so he could roll anywhere from a 20 to a 39.
The fighter (who has a really high Int) has taken maximum ranks (7.5) in Spot and Listen, has a 12 Wis, and has no bonus items, either. He has +8 to his S/L rolls, so he could roll anywhere from a 9 to a 28. His success chance to spot the hiding rogue is approximately 11%. (Actually, exactly 11.25%; I can provide anyone interested with the statistics for that if you want...)
Now, if the rogue has Skill Mastery for H/MS, he will always roll a 10 for a total of 29. The fighter *cannot* succeed in his observation attempt.
It can make a huge difference.
In both cases, and despite the possibility of falling off the ledge, I'd let them take 20, if they want to spend the time. In the former case, I'd see that as crawling across, tying themselves together, and otherwise being exceptionally careful. In the latter case, they'd eventually find it anyway (that's a more classical "take 20" example).
Now, if there's sudden gusts of wind in the chasm or sniping duergar hiding above, taking 20's not an option - although I'll let them declare they're attempting it. They'll take their precautions, and then instead of a Balance check, it might be a Reflex save to react to the sudden-and-heretofore-unknown gust or a more difficult Balance check to deal with heavy crossbow bolts appearing in their sides.
If it's obvious that taking 20's not an option - the gusts are continual, for example - then of course I'll just say "you can't do that because of <x> or <y>."
Both mechanisms are, in general, just to save playing time, which has become more and more a precious commodity as the years went by. The only time it's not is the D&D rogue with Skill Mastery or the T20 service character with PMOS. That "take 10 even in stressful situations" can go a *LONG* way to make the character's actions automatic against a lower-level or cross-class opponent.
Take a L12 rogue versus a L12 fighter. The rogue has taken maximum ranks (15) in Hide and Move Silently, has an 18 Dex, and has lost his stealth-bonus cloak to the thessalhydra last session. He has +19 to his H/MS rolls, and so he could roll anywhere from a 20 to a 39.
The fighter (who has a really high Int) has taken maximum ranks (7.5) in Spot and Listen, has a 12 Wis, and has no bonus items, either. He has +8 to his S/L rolls, so he could roll anywhere from a 9 to a 28. His success chance to spot the hiding rogue is approximately 11%. (Actually, exactly 11.25%; I can provide anyone interested with the statistics for that if you want...)
Now, if the rogue has Skill Mastery for H/MS, he will always roll a 10 for a total of 29. The fighter *cannot* succeed in his observation attempt.
It can make a huge difference.
