Teleport boarding

[whulorigan]

I'm no science whiz - especially in teleportation science - so I never quite understood the whole temp change thing.

In Physics, Energy is a conserved quantity, which simply means that it can't be magically created out of nothing, nor may it magically disappear. If something gains energy, that energy came from somewhere; if something loses energy, it has to go somewhere. Imagine energy like water in a pitcher: If I fill a glass of water, the amount of water contained in the glass after pouring is exactly equal to the amount of water lost from the pitcher after pouring.

In our theoretical teleportation, if one moves up or down in a gravitational field, one has either gained or lost potential energy. That energy has to be accounted for. So if I teleport upward (i.e. I am gaining gravitational potential energy) then I must lose a corresponding amount of energy from somewhere else (which is normally in Traveller interpreted as a loss of heat by the teleporter). Likewise, if I teleport downward (i.e. I am losing gravitational potential energy) then I must experience a net gain of energy (which is normally in Traveller interpreted as a gain of heat by the teleporter).

 

[esampson]

I'm no science whiz - especially in teleportation science - so I never quite understood the whole temp change thing.

I believe this is an artifact from Larry Niven. In his Known Space series the puppeteers have disks that you step on and you will teleport from one disk to another. They arrange these disks around their planets as sort of high speed paths where you step on one and you arrive in the middle of four other disks. The arrangement of the four disks correspond to four other sets of four disks (with the disk 'behind' the person who as just arrived taking them back to the previous set). This allows people to cover planetary distances very quickly simply by walking in a given direction and then at some point in time turning left or right until they arrive at their destination.

Because of the problems of having momentum changed as you are walking the disks converted the energy of excess momentum into heat (since Niven's Known Space was a moderately hard sci-fi universe and there's the law that energy cannot be created or destroyed).

 

[Shadowrunner]

Strapped to a disk, I don't see a problem, a birdstrike or hailstone at those speeds would presumably melt or vaporize from the heat I suppose.

For me teleportation is extremely exotic in my Strephon-era world. Like Blake's 7, extremely rare (although normal ships travelled 3000 light years in 8 months) any play would be like jump, open to error and perhaps rudimentary. I liked the way Star Trek 2009 handled teleportation, there were "firsts" for Scotty.

 

[samuelvss]

IMTU I have never played with Zho's specifically because I have not really wanted to deal with psionics. That said, my tactical impression of teleportation is that it is like a parachute drop, to the extent possible, you want it to be out of the immediate observation of the enemy because of the immediate disorientation involved. This could be from physical attitude/orientation as well. We can drop people in direct contact with the enemy, but casualties will tend to be higher after they hit the ground. You recon the DZ to try to minimize the chance of enemy contact there.

Teleportation IMTU would be done in as close an area to the objective as is out of enemy observation, if feasible. Requiring the ship to be disabled, or otherwise not maneuvering solves the momentum problem, unless we know that the origination ship cannot match vectors; if it can't, then no teleport, plain and simple. This is my (limited) understanding of the matter in canon, and its tactical relevance to me.

 

[McPerth]

I'm no science whiz - especially in teleportation science - so I never quite understood the whole temp change thing.

If you teleport yourself to a higher altitude, you win potential enenrgey, while if you teleport to a lower one, you lose it. As (at least according to current physical laws) energy cannot be created nor destroyed, those energy changes are compensated by altering the energy in the body, so the temperature is altered proportionally (at least that is what Traveller says).

 

[rancke]

I've always assumed that all military vessels ( and compounds and embassies and such) were psionically shielded. It seems like an elementary precaution.

(And don't ask me why the ship design system doesn't have an option for psionic shielding).


Hans

 

[McPerth]

I've always assumed that all military vessels ( and compounds and embassies and such) were psionically shielded. It seems like an elementary precaution.

(And don't ask me why the ship design system doesn't have an option for psionic shielding).


Hans

The only psi-shields I've readabout in Traveller is against telepathy, but AFAIK there are no shields against either clairvoyance, telekinesis nor teleport. Off course, ships are immune to teleport unless vectors are matched (as already discussed).

Remember the actions of the Zhodani scramblers as preparation for an attack, and I havn't read anything about shileds that can avoid them...

 

[rancke]

The only psi-shields I've readabout in Traveller is against telepathy, but AFAIK there are no shields against either clairvoyance, telekinesis nor teleport. Off course, ships are immune to teleport unless vectors are matched (as already discussed).

Remember the actions of the Zhodani scramblers as preparation for an attack, and I havn't read anything about shileds that can avoid them...

That's why I said "I've always assumed" rather than "it is a fact that...". There are, as you say, shields against telepathy, so at the very least buildings and vessels should be shielded against that, yet there's no mention of that either. So in this case the absence of evidence is not proof of absence. Psionic shields could shield against clairvoyance, teleportation and even telekinesis.


Hans

 

[aramis]

I'm no science whiz - especially in teleportation science - so I never quite understood the whole temp change thing.

Changes in altitude or vector are changes in potential energy. The telepath has to provide that energy. The easiest way to do that is to change the temperature of the object teleported in compensation.

 

[kilemall]

Changes in altitude or vector are changes in potential energy. The telepath has to provide that energy. The easiest way to do that is to change the temperature of the object teleported in compensation.

And I will be there at the enviornmental controls, saving the Imperium by waging unceasing thermostat war.

Sure the crew will get sick from constant temperature change, but isn't that a small price to pay for security?

 

[CosmicGamer]

Thank you to those that responded to my earlier post. I do understand science says energy cannot be created nor destroyed. The "potential" energy thing is a bit confusing to me, especially when combined with artificial gravity. I'll get to that in a moment.

Don't want to get into the science that is over my head so I'll stick with what the rules do state and the energy/altitude portion only. I understand that as a game mechanic "potential" energy is accounted for via body temp changes and I'll let that set. However, the rules only seam to to be concerned with altitude changes. My understanding is that gravity determines this "potential" energy and should be a factor as well as altitude? What if the planet is .4g. What if it is 1.4g? If the g is low enough, does one need to worry about altitude at all?

In a ship with artificial gravity, I guess things have a certain "potential" energy and we can come back to this as it is more on topic, but for starters lets go with a huge artificial 1g dome on a .2g moon. What is your potential energy at the surface inside the 1g dome? Outside the dome at the surface of the .2g moon you are on? At 400 meters height within the 1g dome? Working outside the dome 400 meters high above the .2g moons surface? What if the gravity within the dome is dropped? Where does all that potential energy go? What potential, pun intended, problems are there when teleporting between the inside and outside of the dome?

 

[McPerth]

That's why I said "I've always assumed" rather than "it is a fact that...". There are, as you say, shields against telepathy, so at the very least buildings and vessels should be shielded against that, yet there's no mention of that either.

Agreed in this, buildings and shjips should be able to be shielded against telepathy, as the tech exists.

So in this case the absence of evidence is not proof of absence. Psionic shields could shield against clairvoyance, teleportation and even telekinesis.

Where JTAS 11 talks about the Zhodani military, it talks about the recon units using mostly clairvoyence, and the scamblers using telekinesis to create havoc in enemy positions, as it talks about teleported comandos, and among the poossible defenses it talks about, no shileds are named. I assume they would be named if they exist (as it's the case for telpathy shield...

 

[McPerth]

Thank you to those that responded to my earlier post. I do understand science says energy cannot be created nor destroyed. The "potential" energy thing is a bit confusing to me, especially when combined with artificial gravity. I'll get to that in a moment.

Don't want to get into the science that is over my head so I'll stick with what the rules do state and the energy/altitude portion only. I understand that as a game mechanic "potential" energy is accounted for via body temp changes and I'll let that set. However, the rules only seam to to be concerned with altitude changes. My understanding is that gravity determines this "potential" energy and should be a factor as well as altitude? What if the planet is .4g. What if it is 1.4g? If the g is low enough, does one need to worry about altitude at all?

In a ship with artificial gravity, I guess things have a certain "potential" energy and we can come back to this as it is more on topic, but for starters lets go with a huge artificial 1g dome on a .2g moon. What is your potential energy at the surface inside the 1g dome? Outside the dome at the surface of the .2g moon you are on? At 400 meters height within the 1g dome? Working outside the dome 400 meters high above the .2g moons surface? What if the gravity within the dome is dropped? Where does all that potential energy go? What potential, pun intended, problems are there when teleporting between the inside and outside of the dome?

My guess (and just this, as neither I am an expert in physics) here is that potential energy is only for natural gravity, as artificial gravity needs its own energy (power) to work, so the energy that would take you to the "floor" is not your own potential one, but the one applied to the grav plates.

 

[whulorigan]

My guess (and just this, as neither I am an expert in physics) here is that potential energy is only for natural gravity, as artificial gravity needs its own energy (power) to work, so the energy that would take you to the "floor" is not your own potential one, but the one applied to the grav plates.

Any force has an associated potential energy (even artificiall gravity). If an object is placed in the field, the total energy of the system is the potential energy plus the kinetic energy. If the object is dropped in the artificial gravity field, it starts with maximum potential energy for the system, and zero kinetic energy. As the object falls in the field, the potential energy is converted to kinetic energy. The power to the grav plates is merely creating the field (i.e. that is a separate system) - it is independent of the kinetic and potential energy of an object experiencing the force created by the plates.

 

[aramis]

And I will be there at the enviornmental controls, saving the Imperium by waging unceasing thermostat war.

Sure the crew will get sick from constant temperature change, but isn't that a small price to pay for security?

Won't work. The Teleporter doesn't have to match the temperature at the destination, just the vector and gravitational energies.

Note that those can be worked out in actual real world math to joule-seconds, which can then be converted to calories, which can be directly converted (divide by mass and the thermal constant of the material) to get degrees of change. Humans are only slightly better overall than water for thermal constant...

Note also: a 10° change in temperature can kill. If it's increase (going to a lower energy state), going from 38.7° to 48.7° is almost assured to kill you - at the very least, you start into febrile seizures while whatever tech tries to cool you off (but note that any tech the 'porter took with also got thermally changed), and changing core and brain temperatures by more than a degree per minute is likely to result in thermal injury - frostbite if cooling the 'porter down...

Which is why the teleporters need to have the ship pretty much match course.

 

[atpollard]

Of course all of this assumes that potential/kinetic energy is being converted into HEAT. Conservation of Energy can also be preserved by Matter to Energy conversion as well (even 'sort of matter-energy conversion' like when relativistic velocities start affecting mass and the energy required to accelerate it).

So if the energy loss associated with 'cooling' were actually the compensated for by conversion of matter to energy, how many micrograms of blood/water would the teleporter need to loose to compensate for a surface to orbit teleportation ... would a single drop of blood cover it?

Rather than heating to boiling, might the teleporter just gain a drop of sweat at 20C?

My only point is that it is still all pseudo-science and there must be an easier game mechanic out there for preventing abuse of the Teleportation 'magic'. The 'Rules As Written' are, to me, sufficient reason to just drop that specific Psionic ability ... imho, the cure is worse than the disease.

 

[McPerth]

Any force has an associated potential energy (even artificiall gravity). If an object is placed in the field, the total energy of the system is the potential energy plus the kinetic energy. If the object is dropped in the artificial gravity field, it starts with maximum potential energy for the system, and zero kinetic energy. As the object falls in the field, the potential energy is converted to kinetic energy. The power to the grav plates is merely creating the field (i.e. that is a separate system) - it is independent of the kinetic and potential energy of an object experiencing the force created by the plates.

I'm not so sure about that (again, I'm not an expert in physics, so I can well be wrong).

If so, imagine you're 20 meters up on a 1G artifical grav field (zero natural grav). If you have the potential energy equivalent to a natural 1G field, what happens with this energy should someone turn off the grav plates (remember, energy cannot be created nor destroyed)?

Potential energy is based in this thermodinamics principle (energy conservation), you already hold the energy (either kinetic or termical) you'll produce by falling, as no external energy will come to play. In artificial grav fields, there is external energy in play (the power needed to maintain the field; according to MT 50kw/m³ of fied), so, the equation is "contaminated", to say the least.

 

[McPerth]

Note also: a 10° change in temperature can kill. If it's increase (going to a lower energy state), going from 38.7° to 48.7° is almost assured to kill you - at the very least, you start into febrile seizures while whatever tech tries to cool you off (but note that any tech the 'porter took with also got thermally changed), and changing core and brain temperatures by more than a degree per minute is likely to result in thermal injury - frostbite if cooling the 'porter down...

A 10º change will lead to a very critical situation.

Body average external temperature is about 36.5ºC (with a normal variability of about 0.5º). Over 38.5 is considered as urgency, and over 40º critical (see that most clinical termometers only reach 42-42.5ºC) and life threatening. Over 45 proteins begin to denaturalize and enzymes fail (I have serious doubts anyone could survive it).

Likewise, under 34 is considered severe hipotermia (though it's usually more survivable than hipertermia).

If those changes come instantaniously, situation will be quite bad for the affected person. I'd expect (at least) serious sequels and incapacitation...

 

[aramis]

All of which is why it's the best limitation on teleporting - it's limiting things to a pretty narrow range.

A vector of more than 1km/s difference is quite a risk.

 

[McPerth]

As for vector, as I understand it, you keep the vector you had before teleporting. So, if your vector changes because of planet curvature, you are thrown in the same vector (up and "eastwards", in Earth).

In enclosed environements (like a starship interior), this will with all probability send you against a Wall at a speed equivalent to the vector difference among origin and target ships (or points, if not a ship)...