The Flight of the Phoenix

[Rigel Stardin]

Hopefully, the reading audience is old enough to remember the original movie. But it ocurred to me, what would happen if a 100 ton scout crashed landed on a planet and the crew was able to build an escape ship out of the wreakage that could make at least a jump 1 to the nearest scout tender or base?

 

[Dragoner]

Maybe such as a subsidized merchant or liner crashed somewhere and they had to scrap together a 100 ton ship to get out of there (just to stay within the rules). Sounds like a good adventure.

 

[Easterner9504]

Well planes are aluminum, spacecraft crystal iron (Tecnobabble of choice) So you'd need specialized cutting and forging tools not just hacksaws, A-frame and muscle.

Better analogy would be more like cutting a cutter down to a 30t ships boat after midships destroyed in crash under a deadline before a ship in orbit leaves or better a base is closed down for the year because of some odd planetary/spatial phenomenon ala PITCH BLACK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Zubian

Then their is the Droyne ship Menagerie from pg 41 GURPS TRAV, built from 3 alien ships.

 

[Enoki]

Better "technobabble" would be that they are made of micro-crystaline ceramet with a ceramic or carbon based fiber reinforcement layered in a composite hull with metals and other materials. Nothing short of a diamond wet saw (or the advanced equivalent) and lots of time would cut through one on the hulls.
The question here would really be: What condition are the engines and power plant in? This would determine getting off the ground far more than the hull itself.

 

[aramis]

It's VERY likely that the needed cutting and welding tools are present on board ships (otherwise, no field repair is possible, and rules canon of every edition implies it is possible).

It may be slow, the drives may need parts scavenged from other ships, and stores may need to be replenished from local sources and/or be mildly toxic...

 

[Madarin Dude]

I'm with Aramis here it is likely that the tools for repairs will be on the ship since it is out of port for weeks at a time and needs repairs done possibly during that time. Would be a challenge to find a way to cut the ship down to 100 tons from 200 say take a empress marava class down to a scout because of cooked drives to get out of the current situation. Would make for an excellent adventure. Dealing with local weather, fauna, pirates and stretching meager supplies.

 

[Enoki]

I would say that tools for repairs would largely depend on what repairs would usually be expected. I hull repairs were uncommon then you would be unlikely to carry tools to do that sort of work.

Think of it this way. If you had to take your car, truck, etc., somewhere what would you carry with you for that trip as far as tools. Now, I go off-road and into some fairly wilderness parts of the country frequently along with doing other work that sometimes requires carrying specialized tools for vehicles.
I might on a more remote venture be carrying an air compressor, generator, tool boxes with various hand tools, a few air tools, parts and supplies I need for routine maintainence, along with a selection of pioneer tools like shovels, axes, picks, etc.
It would be unusual for me to have tools along that could easily cut up a vehicle body or make major modifications to the vehicle. I simply wouldn't have the space or need for them.

The same goes here. As the ship grows in size the likelihood that there are such tools aboard grows with it. A very small ship like a scout would not have the space to carry an extensive set of tools for major repairs. Instead, they would more likely have a less extensive set and just let someone know where they were headed so that if they didn't return / show up someone would go looking for them.

 

[Dragoner]

Say a scout t-boned a liner mid-air, so they could only salvage the drives from the scout and circular portion of the liner. The scout could crash miles away (shades of twilight's peak) and they would have to get the drives out and install them in the liner's saucer section. Then think of the trip back home, the liner gutted and everyone in one big room, no showers, etc., time to start checking sanity after a few days, maybe the food or air starts running short as well.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

In the original movie, The cargo plane was carrying supplies to a remote oil field location when it crashed. I can't remember how they got off course or why search and rescue couldn't find them.

They couldn't repair the radio.

The plane was modular in a sense (Wings, engine and tail boom were really all that was need to make the plane.).

The tools and other parts necessary to put it together were being carried by the plane.

I know cobbling together a starship is more difficult than taking a plane apart. And you're right, it's probably better if the ship's tonnage was larger than 100 tons. But the major problem I see, is none of the cannonized designs would allow for such a thing to happen. And the only vessel with a chance of that happening is a Xboat tender.

Unless you guys know of ship out there...

 

[rancke]

Perhaps the necessary tools are on the planet already, say, in an understocked ship repair facility at an abandoned mine. The problem could be that almost 50% of the jump grid has been fried, so they party have to cut down a 200T ship to close to a 100T ship. Fortunately, the ship model happens to have most of its cargo bay in the middle. Even so, we're talking months of hard work. And in the meantime the party finds out why the mine is abandoned. Turns out the miners ran out, not the vein...

I know cobbling together a starship is more difficult than taking a plane apart. And you're right, it's probably better if the ship's tonnage was larger than 100 tons. But the major problem I see, is none of the cannonized designs would allow for such a thing to happen. And the only vessel with a chance of that happening is a Xboat tender.

Unless you guys know of ship out there...

Make one up yourself. There's no reason to believe (and good reason not to believe) that the canonical models are anywhere near the sum total of all existing models.


Hans

 

[BlackBat242]

In the last Trav game I ran, the PCs had a custom-built 300td armed merchant ship... the owner (one of the PCs) had set out a 10td "heavy repair bay", with lots of equipment not normally in a small merchant, including hull cutters/welders (yes, generic terms for specialized equipment for the exotic hull materials).

This was the lead ship of a 3-ship merc/merchant corporation operating on the border between the Imperium and Reavers' Deep... the other 2 ships were a captured & modified 200td Aslan combat scout and a 100td converted scout (Paranoia Press Serpent type, the one that looks kinda like the Space Shuttle).

So making temporary repairs to hulls & systems damaged in combat was an expected role of the larger ship, justifying the expense of the "HRB".

 

[Easterner9504]

The plane was flying from a middle of nowhere oil field to Benghazi. The drunk radio operator (carried on the books as a co-pilot) failed to get updated weather reports as did the ultra competent but burned out pilot. The plane hit a dust storm and couldn't get over it so lost an engine and landed wheels down.

The passengers were a mixed bunch Travellers indeed: Brit Army captain & sergeant, Fr. doctor, Am. head-case (nervous breakdown), Italian (wounded), Amer., Mexican & Brit oil workers (1 each), Am. oil manager, and cold-blooded German aircraft designer who designs plane, decides who's worthy of living (Head case and Italian must die to press on with project), and decides he's worth most and TAKES extra water.

All they had to do was drag left boom from plane. Cut right wing off and drag over the plane and attach to left-boom, clean engine, tow new plane to salt flats like sled dogs, (you'll need Vargr for that) and hope the untested engine starts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IACjOvyx5hs

 

[Matt123]

I would say that tools for repairs would largely depend on what repairs would usually be expected. If hull repairs were uncommon then you would be unlikely to carry tools to do that sort of work.

Think of it this way. If you had to take your car, truck, etc., somewhere what would you carry with you for that trip as far as tools. <snip>

The car analogy falls apart when you put that car into a vacuum and then tell the occupants they have stuffed a jacket into a hull puncture and its holding - kind of, just don't expect it to hold for a week in jump space...

Most ships will have cutting tools, but (big but), they will be on the scale of a high tech hacksaw as opposed to the industrial cutting equipment available to a workshop.

I'll add that most commercial sea going vessels today, have at least one fully equipped engineering workshop on board.

 

[Enoki]

Actually, most smaller commercial sea going vessels don't have that kind of equipment aboard. Typical repair equipment might, if well equipped, include a small shop tool like a Smithy combo mill, drill, lathe in some odd corner of the engine room but, its not likely. A good selection of hand tools and some repair parts for the most common problems along with lubricants etc., would be aboard.
There would be the manditory fire extinguishers, life jackets etc., too. Whether the crew has any real experiance with damage control even is iffy in most cases.
The owner simply in the majority of cases is not out long enough or have enough space aboard to dedicate to a full service machine shop and repair equipment. There might be a cutting torch like an oxy-acyetelene rig available with a highly variable amount of gas for it (whatever is left in the tank). Fabricating a big part would be a challenge at best and impossible at worst. And, the material for that part would have to be available.
A US Naval ship is pretty limited unless it is a carrier of LHA. A frigate has a small machine shop aboard for common parts and repairs. Yes, there are cutting torches and welders available but, making major system repairs is not going to happen either. For instance, there are very limited numbers of circuit cards for most systems (a few 'suitcases' full). Manuals are on board but often hit-and-miss in quality and locatability (been there seen all that). The electric shop isn't rebuilding a burnt up motor for example. They don't have the parts even if they had the expertise to do it.

I'd think the best scenario for a small ship in this situation might be, if you have several experts in the mix, would be to cobble together some sort of lifeboat out of the remaining ship. Could you manage a jump capable one? No idea there.

 

[aramis]

Actually, most smaller commercial sea going vessels don't have that kind of equipment aboard. Typical repair equipment might, if well equipped, include a small shop tool like a Smithy combo mill, drill, lathe in some odd corner of the engine room but, its not likely. A good selection of hand tools and some repair parts for the most common problems along with lubricants etc., would be aboard.

Most of the commercial fishing boats up here (Alaska) do have a hull cut-n-patch kit, torch or mig or tig welder, and sufficient tools to do anything short of pulling a jug. Pretty much anything over 100' working in the Gulf of Alaska or the Bearing Sea has to be able to field repair the hull and the on-deck machinery.

A starship, where survival suits won't be enough to save you, would likely have even more thorough. Given an Air/raft surviving the crash, I'd expect the ship's crew to be able to pull just about anything...

After all, one of the adventures has them doing annual maintenance in the field...

 

[Matt123]

Among my limited experience in this is touring a friends deep sea fishing boat, one of several he owned at the time. I was impressed with the size & quality of the two engineering workshops the vessel had.

His comment was that if you broke down at sea, you had to be able to fix it yourself, help was too far away, the catch too valuable and fishing in the southern ocean was too hazardous (no doubt ditto for the seas off Alaska).

This boat was large, couldn't say how large but well over 100' with a helideck on top of the wheelhouse (used when within chopper range of land for refueling). Not the largest he owned, those were the two factory ships. At one stage we tried to talk him into buying the Aussie navies retiring carrier as a fishing boat. Would have been great at deterring competitors & pirates

Small fishing boats, similar to another commercial fisherman I know locally, have nothing but a spanner & screwdrivers on board. But he stays within 8-10km of the coast where emergency help is a radio call away. I would in Traveller terms, consider his to be a ships boat in scale and not jump capable.

 

[Easterner9504]

Don't forget, weights in Trav are measured as a function of volume not dead-wieight. A 100t ship doesn't weigh 200000lbs it displaces the rather large volume of hydrogen. The actual poundage varies world to world which is why volume displacement is used. It does not correspond to water ship size, 100 tons of water is IIRC about 1/4 of that of L-Hyd. Nor does it have anything to do with weight. I.E. a passenger cabin displaces 4 tons it doesn't weigh 4 tons. A M-drive displaces 2 tons, it might weigh 8 tons (never been defined). There are not enough tools or equipment carried on board anything short of a specialist salvage vessel that would allow cutting and reshaping a starship hull. You'd have better luck getting a car wreck and cutting it down into a motorcycle

 

[aramis]

Water is specfic gravity 1 = 1 ton per kiloliter ... it's the definitional substance for the mass units
Hydrogen is about SG 0.07... 1 ton per 13.5 to 14.1 kL
Most metals run SG 6-8... 6-8 tons per kiloliter

 

[McPerth]

Don't forget, weights in Trav are measured as a function of volume not dead-wieight. A 100t ship doesn't weigh 200000lbs it displaces the rather large volume of hydrogen. The actual poundage varies world to world which is why volume displacement is used. It does not correspond to water ship size, 100 tons of water is IIRC about 1/4 of that of L-Hyd. Nor does it have anything to do with weight. I.E. a passenger cabin displaces 4 tons it doesn't weigh 4 tons. A M-drive displaces 2 tons, it might weigh 8 tons (never been defined). There are not enough tools or equipment carried on board anything short of a specialist salvage vessel that would allow cutting and reshaping a starship hull. You'd have better luck getting a car wreck and cutting it down into a motorcycle

It was defined on MT (and IIRC on other Traveller versions too). In MT, a passenger cabin masses about 4 tons, but 1 dton of MD masses about 27-35 tons (depending if it is gravitic or thruster), and a dton of JD weights 27 tons.

About 200 dton ships, according to IE, a free trader masses 1130 tons (unloaded) or 2280 tons (loaded), a far trader 1180/2050, a yacht 1080/1320 and a safari ship 1220/1350. And all are 200 dton ships.

Water is specfic gravity 1 = 1 ton per kiloliter ... it's the definitional substance for the mass units

Weight is always gravity dependent. Mass, on the other hand, is not, and when we talk about acceleration or maneuverability (agility), mass is what should be relevant. In MT, agility is mass dependent, not displacement (volume) dependent. Acceleration, though, is displacement dependent (unless pre-gravitic propulsion is used, as given in One Small Step, on HT).

NOTE: in all this post, when I use the word ton I mean a metric ton (mass unit), while I use dton to indicate displacement ton as defined in Traveller.

 

[MCEvans]

Remember the "Epic" story from A3 Twilight's Peak. Parts from 3 ships were needed to make the 4th spaceworthy again and it took about a year.
The major problem time and distance to the other downed ships, not parts or tools.