MGT Only: The Sheriff John Brown, scout/courier conversion

[Vladika]

48 low berths sounds like an awful lot. At the maximum Passenger Traffic Value (see p. Core:161) you get 9D6 low passengers -- an average of 31.5 and a maximum of 54, only 6 more than 48. I don't see this ship filling its low berths very often.

I can't find the rules for working out the Passenger Traffic Value, but my guess is that 4 or 5 D6 low passengers would be more likely, provided the captain takes care what worlds he visits. So 16 or possibly 24 low berths seems more reasonable to me.
Hans

But, in this particular case, the "Sheriff John Brown*" is a prisoner transport ship. I doubt the Captain rolls for the number of passengers or collects passage fares from them.

It's a government ship, and as such, it couldn't turn a profit anywhere, any time under any circumstances. Bureaucracy just wouldn't stand for such sacrilege.

* Funny choice of names considering the said named sheriff was shot.​

 

[Spartan159]

Con-Space?

To me this has a strong "Con-Air" vibe about it, as such the "passengers" would not be random, but rather IMoJ scheduled prisoner transfers, either highly dangerous or perhaps low social status types.

Secrecy could be the main defense, one scout ship looks like another. I'd say an upgraded maneuver drive and powerplant would be more important than how many low berths you could stuff in, speed/agility would be the primary defense if discovered. Are those standard low berths or emergency/frozen watch type?

 

[rancke]

But, in this particular case, the "Sheriff John Brown*" is a prisoner transport ship. I doubt the Captain rolls for the number of passengers or collects passage fares from them.

Oh. My mistake.

IMTU it would be illegal to carry suspects in low berths (mostly to allow for all the delightful adventuring opportunities of active prisoners ). I haven't made up my mind about convicts. On the one hand, I could easily see the Imperium being ruthless enough for it; on the other hand, you lose the possibility of prisoners revolts if they're all in low berths.


Hans

 

[BlackBat242]

On the one hand, I could easily see the Imperium being ruthless enough for it; on the other hand, you lose the possibility of prisoners revolts if they're all in low berths.


Hans

Which is exactly why the Imperium does it - the "prevent revolts" part, the "ruthless" part is not a factor.

As a large bureaucracy the Imperium (as represented by the IMoJ) is "impersonal" - they simply don't give a %*$ about how the prisoners feel, and any question of "rights" is negated by the fact that this is how the Imperial Navy & Marines transport many of their active-duty personnel (see "frozen watch"), and is thus perfectly legal.

 

[rancke]

Which is exactly why the Imperium does it - the "prevent revolts" part, the "ruthless" part is not a factor.

But that's no fun.

As a large bureaucracy the Imperium (as represented by the IMoJ) is "impersonal" - they simply don't give a %*$ about how the prisoners feel, and any question of "rights" is negated by the fact that this is how the Imperial Navy & Marines transport many of their active-duty personnel (see "frozen watch"), and is thus perfectly legal.

That proves nothing. While you could be 100% right for all we know, you could also be completely wrong for all we know. The fact that there is some risk connected with low berth travel (even if it isn't the harrowing odds the CT rules claim) could mean that convicts have a right not to be put in low berths. That Imperial servicemen voluntarily let themselves be frozen doesn't mean civilians can be treated the same way.

Note that even if a convict in Imperial hands has the right not to be put in low berth it's not a given that such rights can't and won't be violated. That would depend on the attitude of those who watch the watchmen. In any campaign of mine I would let it depend on the personality of the local duke (and the occasional warrant-carrying Imperial Special Investigator answering directly to the Emperor).


Hans

 

[aramis]

Which is exactly why the Imperium does it - the "prevent revolts" part, the "ruthless" part is not a factor.

As a large bureaucracy the Imperium (as represented by the IMoJ) is "impersonal" - they simply don't give a %*$ about how the prisoners feel, and any question of "rights" is negated by the fact that this is how the Imperial Navy & Marines transport many of their active-duty personnel (see "frozen watch"), and is thus perfectly legal.

A8: Prison Planet notes that prisoners civil rights are not respected at all. The warden notes that the only rights the inmates have are those that he grants them. It's about on par with the prisons as described in Les Miserables.

 

[rancke]

A8: Prison Planet notes that prisoners civil rights are not respected at all. The warden notes that the only rights the inmates have are those that he grants them. It's about on par with the prisons as described in Les Miserables.

Sounds like the local duke don't give a damn.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Sounds like the local duke don't give a damn.


Hans

Or feels that the typical inmate of such a place is a murderer who should be happy they have a 10-20 year sentence at hard labor, rather than a rope necktie.

The average citizen of the Imperium lives in a police state that makes the worst police states of the 20th Century look mild. I recommend a novel: David Drake's Lacey and His Friends. That's a benevolent LL 10-11 state with generally non-corrupt cops, and a TL of only about 10.

 

[Carlobrand]

...The average citizen of the Imperium lives in a police state that makes the worst police states of the 20th Century look mild. ...

Kinda depends on where you are. Spinward Marches is decidedly atypical and shows signs of some non-random tinkering, with places like Narsil knocking the population-weighted average down to 8. Still, the average Imperial citizen would have been quite at home in Soviet-era East Germany. For most Imperial citizens, the idea of civil rights is a bit of an alien concept - why should the mighty give you something you don't have the power to take or keep? The average player, aside from the merchants and the scouts, is someone who grew up under that who decided that life under military discipline was actually better than the future they were otherwise facing.

 

[Condottiere]

Politics is very local when you're isolated by a week in any direction, so it would depend on how much the guys on top want to stay on top, and how much Homeland Security is concerned with internal as compared to external threats.

The Imperium adds another layer, but probably with a very light hand, unless your planet is considered a strategic cog in the machinery of Empire, you are considered a disruptive influence or the area is getting undue interstellar attention.

 

[rancke]

The average citizen of the Imperium lives in a police state that makes the worst police states of the 20th Century look mild.

Imperial culture is not the same as the cultures of individual member worlds. By a staggering coincidence the culture of Imperial ex-servicemen and other interstellar travelers appear to be quite close to that of 21st Century Western RPG players.

I put that down to the common knowledge that "everybody knows", that autocracy is the only government form that will work for large interstellar states. This means that Imperial nobles are free to espouse the joys of democracy because they don't have anything at risk there. And since the Imperium is a successor state, albeit at several removes, to the Terran Confederation, it has inherited the United Nations ideals of human rights that the Terran Confederation espoused.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

the United Nations ideals of human rights

Hans

This would have to go to the Pit, but, I'd like to know WTF those are.

 

[aramis]

This would have to go to the Pit, but, I'd like to know WTF those are.

[m;]I'll grant an exception for just a presentation of the UN Declaration on Human Rights.[/m;]

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/ happens to have them.

 

[Vladika]

[m;]I'll grant an exception for just a presentation of the UN Declaration on Human Rights.[/m;]

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/ happens to have them.

Thanks for posting that. I think everyone could benefit from reading it. As Hans so succinctly put it "ideals". Now, before I get my cynical self in serious trouble, I'm leaving this one alone.

 

[McPerth]

Imperial culture is not the same as the cultures of individual member worlds. By a staggering coincidence the culture of Imperial ex-servicemen and other interstellar travelers appear to be quite close to that of 21st Century Western RPG players.

I put that down to the common knowledge that "everybody knows", that autocracy is the only government form that will work for large interstellar states. This means that Imperial nobles are free to espouse the joys of democracy because they don't have anything at risk there. And since the Imperium is a successor state, albeit at several removes, to the Terran Confederation, it has inherited the United Nations ideals of human rights that the Terran Confederation espoused.

I don't agree with your view in OTU (off course I don't judge YTU). Just the first article is fully against the privileges for the Nobles the Imperium has (as I see the Imperium, not all men are born with equal rights there. That was one of the causes of Dulinor's acts, IIRC)...

And for the Solomani Sphere, its rules don't seem to exaclty agree with the UN ideals of human rights (unless they think the only human are the Solomani, after all the name solomani is told as be derivated either form "men of Sol or as Solo- man"), but his would again not be in the line of the UN human rights declaration...

 

[rancke]

This would have to go to the Pit, but, I'd like to know WTF those are.

I would have posted a link but Wil already beat me to it.

I had a long discussion about this over on the SJG boards. I think the first one was post number 129 here:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?p=1279465#post1279465

The following is not canon but it is, I believe, canon-compatible. It's not the only possible interpretation of canon, but it is one possible interpretation.

Assumption: The Sylean Federation had a constitution with a Bill of Rights. It was more or less a cut-and-paste of the RoM's bill of rights which was again derived from the Terran Federation's bill of rights which in turn was derived from the UDHR. It had the usual stuff, no discrimination on the basis of species, gender, race, creed, etc., separation of Church and State, equality before the law, and so on and so on. Note that this was not a carbon copy of the UDHR -- it had whatever changes and adaptations the Sylean Founding Fathers found good. But it drew inspiration from the UDHR and other variants throughout the years.

When Cleon I was prepping for getting his Imperial show up and running, he faced two opposing trends. The people of the Sylean Federation wanted to keep their bill of rights whereas the worlds he hoped to persuade to join the Imperium didn't want their internal affairs messed with.

So in Imperial Edict 9, Cleon listed the rights that the Imperium was obliged to accord to its citizens in any direct transactions. So at end of what came to be called the List of Obligations, he put one more article:

Nothing in this Edict may be interpreted as implying for the Imperium any right or obligation to enforce any of these rights withing the jurisdiction of any member world, except as provided for in individual Imperial World Charters.¹.

¹ Membership treaties.​

In other words, the Imperium does not undertake to enforce the rights of individual citizens of member worlds. They merely uphold them whenever (and if -- very important qualifier there) an Imperial citizen comes before an Imperial court or administrative instance.

Example: A world has laws giving the head of a family complete control of all members². A family member enters the Imperial Consulate and joins an Imperial organization. The family head demands that his errant child be returned to him. The Imperium tells him to take a hike.

² NOT slavery, of course. He can't sell family members. Just has the right to execute them if they display a failure of moral character (like talking back).​

Hans

 

[rancke]

I don't agree with your view in OTU (off course I don't judge YTU). Just the first article is fully against the privileges for the Nobles the Imperium has (as I see the Imperium, not all men are born with equal rights there. That was one of the causes of Dulinor's acts, IIRC)...

That's one of the few clear statements about the Imperium that we have: Imperial nobles have no special priveleges under the law. Goes right back to CT material.

And for the Solomani Sphere, its rules don't seem to exaclty agree with the UN ideals of human rights (unless they think the only human are the Solomani, after all the name solomani is told as be derivated either form "men of Sol or as Solo- man"), but his would again not be in the line of the UN human rights declaration...

So one successor state have more bits and pieces inherited from their common predecessor than the other. What's your point?


Hans

 

[SpaceBadger]

I recommend a novel: David Drake's Lacey and His Friends. That's a benevolent LL 10-11 state with generally non-corrupt cops, and a TL of only about 10.

I would second the recommendation of Lacey and His Friends (or any of the Lacey short stories, originally published in Analog IIRC) for a society with near total surveillance. I would actually put the LL higher, due to the lack of privacy; TTB lists LL from A to E as:

A Weapon possession prohibited.
B Rigid control of civilian movement.
C Unrestricted invasion of privacy.
D Paramilitary law enforcement.
E Full-fledged police state.​

I don't think Lacey's setting is an E, but it should probably be at least C (for the total surveillance) or D (some of the police were paramilitary, armed w powerguns¹, IIRC).

I was recently thinking a lot about that book (but could not find my copy to re-read) in trying to get a feel for law enforcement and surveillance on Nexus Highport in our SBRD game (only LL A on the planet, but with near total surveillance in public places on the Highport). In order not to short-circuit the plot with everyone getting arrested, I allowed some folks w specialized knowledge to hack and turn off the holo-cams in certain areas, but otherwise I was picturing the Protectors having almost the level of surveillance that Lacey had to work with.



FN 1: Yes, powerguns as in Hammer's Slammers; no, I don't take that one reference to definitely link Lacey w the Slammer-verse, but I suppose it is possible.

 

[aramis]

Lacey's probably B - privacy is almost non-extant, but invasion is restricted slightly. I'd lower it slightly further (to 10-11) because it's clear that the interaction chances aren't "automatic every 4 hours out and about"...

 

[Dagrill]

The average citizen of the Imperium lives in a police state that makes the worst police states of the 20th Century look mild. I recommend a novel: David Drake's Lacey and His Friends. That's a benevolent LL 10-11 state with generally non-corrupt cops, and a TL of only about 10.

Sorry I know this is off topic, but is that because of the Imperium's non interference in worlds that join, or do you see it as necessary for a police state to exist for a world government to operate in a high pop high tech OTU world?

Kind Regards

David