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The stern chase

Carlobrand

SOC-14 1K
Marquis
Idea came up. With apologies, I'm putting it here in IMTU because not everyone may agree with the underlying assumptions and I'd rather not get into too much of a debate about underlying assumptions when I'm formulating a different combat scenario. I'd love to debate the underlying assumptions over in Fleet or some other forum if someone wants to do that, but I'd like to focus on debating the scenario here and how best to flesh it out, if that's ok.

As I said in another post, one of the issues with HG2 is the basic assumption of the line. It looks rather like two fleets opposing each other just outside the 100-diameter limit of some target world, doing very little movement other than what it takes to try and come to a preferred range, apparently because most of their maneuver energy is taken up in evasive maneuvers to reduce the chance of being hit. Starting from that model, if we start from the assumption that agility is the application of spare power to the maneuver drive in order to evade enemy weapon attacks, then the application of that energy to accelerate away from an opponent means that energy is not available for evading attacks. In other words, we can make a homebrew rule modification that says you need to spend part or all of your agility to break away by acceleration, and the other guy needs to spend the same amount of agility to pursue.

Breaking away by acceleration, for that round at least, creates a stern chase. In the subsequent combat rounds, you can decide to continue spending your agility (or spend more if you weren't spending all of it) in the hope the enemy will either disengage or will be more vulnerable and therefore easier to hit, or you can stop spending agility and turn to face the enemy, thereby ending the stern chase and having all of your agility for evasive maneuvering.

In a stern chase, both parties are more vulnerable, but one is firing "uphill" while the other is firing "downhill". For most weapons this is irrelevant. For missiles, this could be very relevant. I'm looking at how best to model that.

I'll start with a slight modification to the missile damage rules. I like the Book 2 rule about the missile doing 1d6 hits; it makes the nonnuclear missile more significant in combat when facing heavy armor, since it gives the missile an opportunity to overcome that bit about rolling off the end of the table into "no effect" land. (Although I've also entertained the notion of getting rid of that line and having the table stop at 21+ instead of 22+; that might make the missile too deadly, but it's pretty wickedly deadly in Book 2 if it hits, so ...). I've also considered emulating the effect of a kinetic impact by having each hit roll 1d6 (or maybe 1d6-1, or maybe 1d6-3, still thinking about it) to subtract from penetration, reflecting both that it's moving wickedly fast at impact and that its effect is going to depend a lot on whether it can impact squarely or manages only a glancing blow.

Now we look at a stern chase, and one option is to give a -1 DM bonus to the damage roll for each G of acceleration when the downhill craft is being hit and a +1 DM penalty when the uphill craft is being hit. This can make a stern chase a bit of a dangerous affair, less so for heavily armored craft but still.

There are other issues: at some point, the uphill craft is essentially firing at short range even when at long range, since the missile is closing the distance that much faster. Similarly, the downhill craft is essentially firing at long range even when at short range. Also, if you're both accelerating at the same rate, it might make the initiative roll moot: how do you close range with someone who is doing their best to accelerate away from you if you're just matching their acceleration. Could end up in a bidding war: one guy applies 1g to break away (reducing agility by that amount but hoping he won't be pursued), the other announces he's applying 1g to pursue, the first guy says he's upping it to 2G (again reducing agility), the second says he's matching, and so forth until they either reach a point where the second guy decides it's too risky for his blood and ends pursuit or they're settled on a number and start rolling for hits. In the latter case, the second guy might announce another 1G boost to close to short range, if he has it - and the first guy might add another G or surrender initiative.
 
Difficult to do. Since the M-drives have a G rating "spare power" into the M-drive is just going to give a fraction of a G more acceleration. Nothing significant enough to cause any noticeable effect on combat between two ships.
 
Starting from that model, if we start from the assumption that agility is the application of spare power to the maneuver drive in order to evade enemy weapon attacks, then the application of that energy to accelerate away from an opponent means that energy is not available for evading attacks.
That's just what other rulesets do. You can apply Gs to either movement or evasive maneuvering.

The "up hill"/"downhill" hole is steeper than that, since missiles rarely have have that much available fuel to do much accelerating to try and catch someone. If they're any real distance away, the missiles fall by the wayside.

Adding or reducing damage based on velocity differential opens up a whole kettle of worms. It's clear that at the velocities we typically deal with in the game, that kinetic collision is VERY powerful. Consider a missile from TNE, they mass 7 metric tonnes -- 7000 kg. At a relative speed of "speed 6" (which is high, but not that high), that's 360Kkm/hr, 20,000 m/s. Resulting in 1.4 TRILLION joules of energy.

Anything getting hit by that, I don't really care what it is (save a small moon), it's bye bye time.

This is why the design team just handwaved it away. This is why they use warhead pumped lasers, it just makes the entire problem (game wise) of kinetic impact Go Away.

Back when they made CT, the idea of smacking each other with missiles and warheads made sense when it was dicussed over pizza and beer and they had to cram something into 3 paragraphs of rules. Science-wise, it's really fraught with issues.
 
Breaking away by acceleration, for that round at least, creates a stern chase. In the subsequent combat rounds, you can decide to continue spending your agility (or spend more if you weren't spending all of it) in the hope the enemy will either disengage or will be more vulnerable and therefore easier to hit, or you can stop spending agility and turn to face the enemy, thereby ending the stern chase and having all of your agility for evasive maneuvering.
Note, in said chase, the number of batteries are going to be more limited, i.e. the bow batteries of the following ship and the after batteries of leading ship. Also note the reduction in cross section of both ships, thus it probably will be harder to hit with direct fire weapons. With the leading ship getting a bonus to missile and sand fire, the following ship wouldn't get benefit from sand, and their missiles would be limited to short range.
 
Assuming that in general the m-drive is designed to primarily thrust “behind” the ship and deceleration is done via “flipping” as is often shown in discussions of how ships work.

The chasing ship has one huge advantage in that they can use spinal mounts, and this is probably at an advantage to them given that their opponent trying to accelerate away is spending less of their available G in evading incoming fire.
 
That's just what other rulesets do. You can apply Gs to either movement or evasive maneuvering.

The "up hill"/"downhill" hole is steeper than that, since missiles rarely have have that much available fuel to do much accelerating to try and catch someone. If they're any real distance away, the missiles fall by the wayside.

Adding or reducing damage based on velocity differential opens up a whole kettle of worms. It's clear that at the velocities we typically deal with in the game, that kinetic collision is VERY powerful. Consider a missile from TNE, they mass 7 metric tonnes -- 7000 kg. At a relative speed of "speed 6" (which is high, but not that high), that's 360Kkm/hr, 20,000 m/s. Resulting in 1.4 TRILLION joules of energy.

Anything getting hit by that, I don't really care what it is (save a small moon), it's bye bye time.

This is why the design team just handwaved it away. This is why they use warhead pumped lasers, it just makes the entire problem (game wise) of kinetic impact Go Away.

Back when they made CT, the idea of smacking each other with missiles and warheads made sense when it was dicussed over pizza and beer and they had to cram something into 3 paragraphs of rules. Science-wise, it's really fraught with issues.
I agree. When you start looking at megaton-level impacts, hundred-million degree balls of plasma punching all the way through and out the other side, we're in a different realm. That's one of the consequences of magic missiles, but I don't see a way around it other than to make liberal use of handwavium to make something that maybe hints at what's happening without turning them into game-killers. That or completely re-imagine missiles as a more short range thingie that depends completely on some longer-range effect to reach their target - something like a bomb-pumped laser firing a single beam to bridge the distance. I think someone mentioned one of the other games does something like that. Of course, if the missile itself can't bridge the distance, then it's not hitting anything with nukes either, not unless we envision a much, much bigger missile. In the interest of not getting too complicated, I think for this I'll stick to handwavium that hints at it without becoming overwhelming.

Note, in said chase, the number of batteries are going to be more limited, i.e. the bow batteries of the following ship and the after batteries of leading ship. Also note the reduction in cross section of both ships, thus it probably will be harder to hit with direct fire weapons. With the leading ship getting a bonus to missile and sand fire, the following ship wouldn't get benefit from sand, and their missiles would be limited to short range.
Good point. Maybe participants can only use half their usual batteries.

Assuming that in general the m-drive is designed to primarily thrust “behind” the ship and deceleration is done via “flipping” as is often shown in discussions of how ships work.

The chasing ship has one huge advantage in that they can use spinal mounts, and this is probably at an advantage to them given that their opponent trying to accelerate away is spending less of their available G in evading incoming fire.
Also an interesting point. Runner is raining wickedly fast hypervelocity missiles on his pursuer, pursuer is firing lethally accurate meson spinals at the runner. Runner will most likely cover his heavies with escorts but those will take heavy losses and, unless he can score some maneuver hits with the missiles and get clear of the pursuers, it's a pointless exercise. As is often the case, the retreat is looking more lethal than the combat itself.
 
I assume turret missiles are 50kg and bay missiles are 750kg, not 7000 kg. Furthermore, that the missiles fragment into a cloud with 1kg slug penetrators leading and bay missiles are loaded with penaids and possibly advanced computers/electronics to survive point defense as well as turret swarms.

So quite a bit less catastrophic, but it still works out to battleship round power for the small missiles and potentially ship smashing for bay hits.
 
As far as stern chase is concerned, since I’m plotting CT moves it’s pretty simple, either the missile is accelerating or started with enough vee to catch the target or it cannot and misses.

The damage would be lessened as per the missile supplement rules or IMTU getting less/no bonuses to battery strength.

There is no uphill/downhill, the missiles start with the vee of their launching ship, so a ship attempting to escape and firing missiles on a stern chase opponent would have the missiles accelerating in the opposite direction, effectively slowing the missiles down to attempt an intercept.

Traditional Traveller missiles with 6G limits are going to be challenged to hit in either direction. I use HG rules to build missiles and add extra Gs possible so they are able to chase down close/slow opponents, but not reliably with enough distance, starting vee or target accel.
 
I agree. When you start looking at megaton-level impacts, hundred-million degree balls of plasma punching all the way through and out the other side, we're in a different realm. That's one of the consequences of magic missiles, but I don't see a way around it other than to make liberal use of handwavium to make something that maybe hints at what's happening without turning them into game-killers. That or completely re-imagine missiles as a more short range thingie that depends completely on some longer-range effect to reach their target - something like a bomb-pumped laser firing a single beam to bridge the distance. I think someone mentioned one of the other games does something like that. Of course, if the missile itself can't bridge the distance, then it's not hitting anything with nukes either, not unless we envision a much, much bigger missile. In the interest of not getting too complicated, I think for this I'll stick to handwavium that hints at it without becoming overwhelming.


Good point. Maybe participants can only use half their usual batteries.


Also an interesting point. Runner is raining wickedly fast hypervelocity missiles on his pursuer, pursuer is firing lethally accurate meson spinals at the runner. Runner will most likely cover his heavies with escorts but those will take heavy losses and, unless he can score some maneuver hits with the missiles and get clear of the pursuers, it's a pointless exercise. As is often the case, the retreat is looking more lethal than the combat itself.
Or one builds his capital ships with the spinal mount facing backwards. It only takes a moment to spin around and attack . Then it is pointing at the opponent during retreat. (y)
 
I assume turret missiles are 50kg and bay missiles are 750kg, not 7000 kg. Furthermore, that the missiles fragment into a cloud with 1kg slug penetrators leading and bay missiles are loaded with penaids and possibly advanced computers/electronics to survive point defense as well as turret swarms.

So quite a bit less catastrophic, but it still works out to battleship round power for the small missiles and potentially ship smashing for bay hits.
I haven't seen 750 kg or 7000 kg. Is that from a source? Penaids are a good idea.

...
There is no uphill/downhill, the missiles start with the vee of their launching ship, so a ship attempting to escape and firing missiles on a stern chase opponent would have the missiles accelerating in the opposite direction, effectively slowing the missiles down to attempt an intercept.
...
It was assumed the missiles would start with the delta vee of the launching ship. From the reference of the two ships, if they're maintaining the same range during the pursuit then they have the same velocity at the time of launch. From that point forward, the pursuing ship is accelerating toward the missile while the missile is accelerating toward the pursuing ship. The downhill was the pursuing ship accelerating into the missile being launched by the runner, as opposed to two static fleets.

Mathwise, if the two ships are 60,000 kilometers apart and at the same velocity at t0, then at t0 the pursuer and the missile launched by the runner are at rest with respect to each other. From that point the pursuer is doing 6g toward the runner and the runner's missile is doing 6g toward the pursuer. In 1000 seconds the pursuer moves 1/2(60m/s^2)*(1000s)^2=30,000,000m or 30,000 km, while the missile moves 1/2(60m/s^2)*(1000s)^2=30,000,000m or 30,000 km, and they meet in the middle. At that point the pursuer is going 60m/s^2*1000s=60,000m/s or 60kps faster relative to the missile than at start, and the missile is going60m/s^2*1000s=60,000m/s or 60kps toward the pursuer relative to the pursuer. The two impact at a combined velocity of 120 kps.

Were the two ships at the same range and not moving, again at t0 the (not) pursuer and the missile launched by the (not) runner are at rest with respect to each other and, since the (not) pursuer is not moving, his velocity would also be 0 at impact. The missile would have to cover 60,000 km distance on its own, which would require 60,000,000m=1/2(60m/s^2)*(t)^2 so t=sqrt(2*60,000,000/60)=~1414 seconds, at which point the missile velocity would be 60*1414=84,840m/s or 84.84 kps. That is a little over 2/3 what it would have been had missile and pursuer accelerated toward each other.
 
I haven't seen 750 kg or 7000 kg. Is that from a source? Penaids are a good idea.
7 tonnes is from TNE FF&S, or at least a volume of 7 m³.
750 kg is a house rule.
LBB2 (turret) missiles are 50 kg.

RAW says:
CT Striker, p41-42:
3. Missiles: Turret-mounted missiles have warheads equivalent to 15 cm CPR gun rounds; bay-mounted missiles have warheads equivalent to 25 cm CPR gun rounds. There are 25 launchers in a 50-ton bay, and 50 launchers in a 100-ton bay.
Bay missiles are slightly bigger, but more numerous.



Mathwise, if the two ships are 60,000 kilometers apart and at the same velocity at t0, then at t0 the pursuer and the missile launched by the runner are at rest with respect to each other. From that point the pursuer is doing 6g toward the runner and the runner's missile is doing 6g toward the pursuer. In 1000 seconds the pursuer moves 1/2(60m/s^2)*(1000s)^2=30,000,000m or 30,000 km, while the missile moves 1/2(60m/s^2)*(1000s)^2=30,000,000m or 30,000 km, and they meet in the middle. At that point the pursuer is going 60m/s^2*1000s=60,000m/s or 60kps faster relative to the missile than at start, and the missile is going60m/s^2*1000s=60,000m/s or 60kps toward the pursuer relative to the pursuer. The two impact at a combined velocity of 120 kps.
The missile envelope is different for the pursuer and pursued, but that is far below the level of detail in Traveller.

Note that missiles are not assumed to impact, just get close enough for the warhead to damage the target, see the Missile supplement. LBB2 missiles are basically Sidewinders...
 
Or one builds his capital ships with the spinal mount facing backwards. It only takes a moment to spin around and attack . Then it is pointing at the opponent during retreat. (y)
You don't shoot once every 20 min or so. You shoot continuously during the round, at least by FF&S. If you want to hit at longer ranges, you shoot a lot of times during a round.

Skärmavbild 2024-07-30 kl. 12.00.png
 
Adding or reducing damage based on velocity differential opens up a whole kettle of worms. It's clear that at the velocities we typically deal with in the game, that kinetic collision is VERY powerful. Consider a missile from TNE, they mass 7 metric tonnes -- 7000 kg. At a relative speed of "speed 6" (which is high, but not that high), that's 360Kkm/hr, 20,000 m/s. Resulting in 1.4 TRILLION joules of energy.

Anything getting hit by that, I don't really care what it is (save a small moon), it's bye bye time.
Well, it's equivalent to a ~300 kt warhead. But I would assume that a missile as a whole would not impact a ship unless the ship is totally defenseless.
 
...
Note that missiles are not assumed to impact, just get close enough for the warhead to damage the target, see the Missile supplement. LBB2 missiles are basically Sidewinders...
The missile supplement is worth mining but has limited application when we're abstracting missiles the way Book 5 does. Also, I'm seeing the word impact being used:

"Impact: Actually impacting a target (as opposed to intercepting) requires maneuverability on the part of the missile. Any powered missile will impact the target on the first turn of movement; initial guidance by the launch racks is sufficient in this case. In subsequent turns, continuous burn missiles can intercept, but will not impact. Limited burn and discretionary burn missiles can impact if they are able to plot a vector which passes through the target."

Am I overlooking some line that modifies this statement?

Those are awfully small missiles. I've entertained notions of making them bigger just to make them a bit less magical, or of redefining them to be short-range weapons.
 
This post is all IMTU but builds on assumptions extrapolated from extant rules.

The 750kg for bay missiles is strictly house rule, but it’s built from the effects of the HG missile table. To wit the 50 ton bay attacks are equivalent of 15 turret missiles and 100 ton bay missiles are equivalent of 30 turret missiles. So multiply 50kg by 15, voila 750 kg and fits snugly in that silo.

Also big enough to template the insertion capsule from Kininur in a special version of the bays. Gotta starship trooper.

Important to have that value so you know how many shots per 50/100 ton bay, and have a missile build system whether mine or the missile supplement. Cost of missile shots is a big negative lack IMO for TCS.

Also nice as the Striker 15/25 cm diameter gives us a volume to figure out the length of the bay missile.

I assume impact as opposed to say a detlaser or the missile supplement’s implied shaped charge. This is partially taste, partially game effect I want.

The shaped charge is if anything a more precision shot then an impact cloud, and I can see the 2300 nuclear detlasers as a thing but not worth it on conventional warheads. So much for taste.

The game effect I want comes from the supplement rules’ impact, where relative velocity makes a big difference on damage. I want the same thing but built into the HG to hit resolution and my own damage rules.

This creates hard choices about energy weapons and optimal armor/penetration ranges vs making a ‘missile run’ or staying at range so missiles can build up enough vee to punch through vs being too close/no effect.
 
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