CT Only: Agility and acceleration

[kilemall]

The two power settings and the calculation coupled with the escape rules make it clear that having less power going to the m drive means less accel of whatever variety. Hence default everything powered options yields a lower agility, which yes lowers evasion but also lowers general accel Gs for no getaway.

What the game should be saying is there is agility in terms of evasive maneuvers, essentially using accel at x Gs to viff in different random directions while maintaining the general main course and vee, and accel/decel in the LBB2 sense, actual change in course and velocity.

Since I have the LBB5 generated ships and more or less to hit system running in maneuver LBB2 style, it’s clear to me they are two different things. The original does conflate it.

LBB2 evade by itself is just clearly wobbles and other maneuvering thruster induced hull angling tricks like others have mentioned. The full LBB-5 agility is clearly more.

 

[Carlobrand]

Agility could be the attitude jets/gyroscope etc. that rotate the ship. or whatever allows you to make the acceleration more than 1 dimensional.

Agility could be rotational. Could be extra power changing the attitude of the craft more quickly. However:

Average reaction time is about a quarter second. That's the time between the instant the image hits your eye to the instant you react to it: click a button, stomp the brake, what have you. Nvidia claims gamers can get that down to 0.15 seconds.

so your active EM sensor sends photons out. They reflect from the target head back your way, are picked up by the sensor, fed to your monitor, you react to the image by clicking the fire button. Now a pulse of laser heads out to that point at light speed, or a particle beam or Mason beam at just shy of light speed.

The craft has 1 second between the time the em pulse reflects off it, flies back, you react, and the beam hits that point in space if it is at least about 112,000 km away. At that range, at 6g the target point could have moved anywhere within a 30 meter radius. For smaller craft that's a decent chance you've missed. For a capital ship, you'll still hit, just some other spot on the hull. But that's 112,000 km, a bit less than a third of the way from the Earth to Luna. At 50,000 km, what MT considers maximum for short range, you could have moved anywhere within a 10.2 meter radius; anything larger than a fighter or small craft will get hit regardless of what it does because it's too large to evade the hit at that range. Rotating twice or 3 times or 10 times and making a quick burst of acceleration each of those times changes nothing - you won't have moved far enough to get out of the way of the shot, you'll only have changed where it hit you.

But there are other ways to avoid damage. You could twist enough to make the shot hit you at an angle, dispersing the energy over a wider area so it doesn't penetrate. Or, you could spin rapidly enough that the hit - again - is spread over a wider area rather than all in one spot. Neither of those needs a maneuver drive though. They just need attitude jets or a powerful gyroscope.

 

[kilemall]

Agility could be rotational. Could be extra power changingthe attitude of the craft more quickly. However:

Average reaction time is about a quarter second. That's the time between the instant the image hits your eye to the instant you react to it: click a button, stomp the brake, what have you. Nvidia claims gamers can get that down to 0.15 seconds.

so your active EM sensor sends photons out. They reflect from the target head back your way, are picked up by the sensor, fed to your monitor, you react to the image by clicking the fire button. Now a pulse of laser heads out to that point at light speed, or a particle beam or Mason beam at just shy of light speed.

The craft has 1 second between the time the em pulse reflects off it, flies back, you react, and the beam hits that point in space if it is at least about 112,000 km away. At that range, at 6g the target point could have moved anywhere within a 30 meter radius. For smaller craft that's a decent chance you've missed. For a capital ship, you'll still hit, just some other spot on the hull. But that's 112,000 km, a bit less than a third of the way from the Earth to Luna. At 50,000 km, what MT considers maximum for short range, you could have moved anywhere within a 10.2 meter radius; anything larger than a fighter or small craft will get hit regardless of what it does because it's too large to evade the hit at that range. Rotating twice or 3 times or 10 times and making a quick burst of acceleration each of those times changes nothing - you won't have moved far enough to get out of the way of the shot, you'll only have changed where it hit you.

But there are other ways to avoid damage. You could twist enough to make the shot hit you at an angle, dispersing the energy over a wider area so it doesn't penetrate. Or, you could spin rapidly enough that the hit - again - is spread over a wider area rather than all in one spot. Neither of those needs a maneuver drive though. They just need attitude jets or a powerful gyroscope.

Which the latter is IMO the evade mechanism in action in LBB2.

Re reaction time, I figure it’s more like the target ship viffs around and thrusts main drive in x direction, that’s a combo of most of the ship is not aligned where it was plus the y meters per second it burned at z Gs. The combo may not create a clean miss but enough to throw off an effective burn through.

In my system increased distance reduces battery value and thus to hit and damage, but closing below 100000 km increases it.

So a Laser-1 battery would yield that at 100000 km and 10 tons, rolled as two hits. But if the ship closes, say fires at 50000 km, it increases to Laser-6, rolls as a 6 battery and does 60 tons damage. This is due to the reaction time reduction you highlight plus more energy likely striking at effective spots because of accuracy, less time to agility evade and less distance dispersion.

 

[McPerth]

Here is what is ACTUALLY happening.

(...)

What you defend in your post is basically what I¡ve been saying along the whole discussion, but I also understand there may be other interpretations. After all, if you have M6 PP12, why those additional 6 PP factors, that don't divert any basic power to the MD, don't give you more power (the one that the first 6 factors divert to it)?

OTOH, a good pilot can increase effective Agility, so allowing you to flee by acceleration when you could not with basic Agility. If Agility=Acceleration, does this mean the good pilot allow for more acceleration than the MD can produce? I don't buy it...

Average reaction time is about a quarter second. That's the time between the instant the image hits your eye to the instant you react to it: click a button, stomp the brake, what have you. Nvidia claims gamers can get that down to 0.15 seconds.

But computers may reduce this reaction time...

You could twist enough to make the shot hit you at an angle, dispersing the energy over a wider area so it doesn't penetrate. Or, you could spin rapidly enough that the hit - again - is spread over a wider area rather than all in one spot.

None of those will affect mesons or radiation, though, and Agility also avoids them...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

LBB5.80, p39:
Emergency Agility: A ship may be declared to be using its emergency agility during the pre-combat decision step. If so, the ship may not fire any of its energy consuming weapons (all but missiles and sandcasters), but its agility becomes equal to its maneuver drive or its power plant number, whichever is less. The ship may still use its computers and screens. This tactic is especially useful when breaking off by acceleration.

See below:

Consolidated CT Errata 1.2, p15:
Page 28, Agility (clarification): Any vessel using emergency agility cannot use any weapons (except sandcasters) or screens (except black globes). The published text led to missile-armed vessels designed to use emergency agility at all times, which was not intended.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Average reaction time is about a quarter second. That's the time between the instant the image hits your eye to the instant you react to it: click a button, stomp the brake, what have you. Nvidia claims gamers can get that down to 0.15 seconds.

But computers may reduce this reaction time...

It's not about reactions, it's about proactively executing an erratic evasive course, to be harder to hit. Works against all weapons.

None of those will affect mesons or radiation, though, and Agility also avoids them...

Quite, so Agility can't be about reactions or spinning the ship.

It's about being elsewhere, accelerating out of the way in a erratic direction, not being hit.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

OTOH, a good pilot can increase effective Agility, so allowing you to flee by acceleration when you could not with basic Agility. If Agility=Acceleration, does this mean the good pilot allow for more acceleration than the MD can produce? I don't buy it...

A good Pilot can't plot a better course?

It's an abstraction, a game simplification. Does a Ship's Tactician make the computer work faster?

 

[McPerth]

A good Pilot can't plot a better course?

Hey! The one deffending it was not just plain acceleration was me !

Now seriously, yes, (s)he can, and same about a more maneuverable ship, even if both have the same acceleration capacity (Gs)

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Now seriously, yes, (s)he can, and same about a more maneuverable ship, even if both have the same acceleration capacity (Gs)

OK, then please explain to me how a MD-6, Agility-2 ships can't get away from a MD-4, Agility-4 ship by "Breaking Off by Acceleration"? If it can accelerate at 6 G (with Agility-2), just put the pedal to the metal and watch the other ship shrink in the rear view mirror?

 

[McPerth]

OK, then please explain to me how a MD-6, Agility-2 ships can't get away from a MD-4, Agility-4 ship by "Breaking Off by Acceleration"? If it can accelerate at 6 G (with Agility-2), just put the pedal to the metal and watch the other ship shrink in the rear view mirror?

Maybe because it's likely to be debris (or other hazards) that don't allow just to sink the foot in the pedal? No, I cannot really tell you.

But can you explain me why a M5 A5 ship with a very good pilot (taht increases effective Agilty by 2) can run away from a M6 A6 ship pursuing it?

However you try, there will be simplifications that lead to inconsistencies.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

However you try, there will be simplifications that lead to inconsistencies.

Agreed.

But one is the standard case, the other is exceedingly rare (skill-5 pilot).

If agility is acceleration, breaking off by acceleration makes perfect sense. Otherwise, not so much.

 

[Spinward Flow]

If Agility=Acceleration

I just spent an entire post PROVING that these two concepts are NOT EQUIVALENT!
Stop conflating obviously different things into being interchangeable with each other!

does this mean the good pilot allow for more acceleration than the MD can produce?

Stop conflating obviously different things into being interchangeable with each other!

There are different WORDS being used to represent different CONCEPTS.
The concepts are related to each other (one derives from the other) but they are NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.

Every time anyone asserts that Agility=Acceleration ... therefore by the commutative power of math you can substitute one for the other (and get away with it at no cost or penalty) ... a fundamental error is being made.

Stop making obvious fundamental errors that impede correct understanding!

 

[mike wightman]

"Energy points are used for four purposes: powering weapons, shields, for maneuver drives (for agility), and for computers.

The weapons and screens installed on a ship may not consume more energy points than the power plant generates *

Agility: Energy points remaining after weapons, screens, and computers have been installed may be applied toward the ship's agility rating. **

Agility is the ability of a ship to make violent maneuvers and take evasive action while engaging hostile targets. A ship's agility rating may never exceed its maneuver drive rating. For each power plant hit received in combat (cumulative) the ship's agility rating is reduced by one.***
A ship may voluntarily refrain from using any weapons or screens (computers may still be used) which require energy points and receive an emergency agility rating (for that combat round only) equal to its current maneuver-drive rating or power plant rating (whichever is lower).

Breaking Off: There are two ways for a ship to break off from the battle: by jumping out of the system or by accelerating away from the enemy****

Emergency Agility: A ship may be declared to be using its emergency agility during the pre-combat decision step. If so, the ship may not fire any of its energy consuming weapons or use its screens (all but missiles and sandcasters), but its agility becomes equal to its maneuver drive or its power plant number, whichever is less.

PURSUIT STEP
Ships breaking off by acceleration must begin at long range; they may break off from the line of battle or the reserve. Ships may break off alone or in groups; a group breaks off at the agility of its slowest ship. Ships breaking off from the reserve (assuming the line of battle has not been broken through) do so as if their agilities were two greater than they are. Enemy ships (from the line of battle or the reserve) may pursue if their agility is at least equal to that of the group breaking off. Each group of pursued and pursuers forms a small battle of its own.
No ships ever return to the main battle.
Ships may attempt to break off from their pursuers.
A ship succeeds in breaking off if it is not pursued.
Emergency agility may be used to determine agility for the purpose of breakoff and pursuit, if it has been declared"

 

[mike wightman]

* so let's take your m4 pp4 ship and say it has weapons and shields requiring pp2, it has ag2
**weapon and screen EPs are used first, hence the ag2
*** ship takes a pp hit it is now m4 pp3 ag1, its emergency agility is now 3. It only has 3 units of pp to operate everything, so even if the weapons and screens are switched off it can only power the m-d to 3 because m-drive can not be higher than pp.
****accelerating away from the enemy, isn't that maneuvering? using the m-drive? Which is now at best 3.

 

[Carlobrand]

...Re reaction time, I figure it’s more like the target ship viffs around and thrusts main drive in x direction, that’s a combo of most of the ship is not aligned where it was plus the y meters per second it burned at z Gs. The combo may not create a clean miss but enough to throw off an effective burn through.
...

I've considered that agility works in conjunction with the computer's ECM: the ECM tries to fool the attacker's sensor that you jigged while you actually jagged. The maneuver/evade program and the pilot's skill versus the gunner's skill implies there's a good deal of guessing and instinct going on.

...None of those will affect mesons or radiation, though, and Agility also avoids them...

An excellent point. Perhaps a bow to simplification, or perhaps agility is a little from Column A and a little from column B and it shouldn't have as big an effect on mesons and nukes.

I'd completely forgotten about the errata regarding agility. Color me embarrassed.

 

[WizWom]

That’s not what I read in HG (page 28)…

Agility: Energy points remaining after weapons, screens, and computers have been installed may be applied toward the ship's agility rating. Divide the remaining energy points by 0.01M; the result is the number of agility points the ship has. Drop all fractional points. Agility is the ability of a ship to make violent maneuvers and take evasive action while engaging hostile targets. A ship's agility rating may never exceed its maneuver drive rating. For each power plant hit received in combat (cumulative) the ship's agility rating is reduced by one.

(underlining is mine)

As you can see, the Agility is not the acceleration power (given by the M-drive number), but the ability to make violent maneuvers, and depends on unused power, while the M-drive is its limit…

Where have you taken your previous statement that Agility 0 means no acceleration? If so, to give an example, the Azhanti class cruisers cannot accelerate, as they have agility 0…

OK, you are missing an important point, fairly obviously.
Power plant hits reduce the agility (which is limited by M drive rating, too).
Agility is used to check if break off by acceleration is successful (and EMEERGENCY agility can be specified when you do).
So, Agility most certainly is acceleration, used off axis of travel, to confuse gunnery solutions.

You can't design a ship with M-drive one, and enough power for Agility 6 and get anything from it. A Lightning class Cruiser with Agility 0 (345 EP left after shields, weapons and computer for the TL14 version) does not do any more than range maneuvering in combat.

But: if you GM, do it whatever way makes you happy.

 

[kilemall]

I've considered that agility works in conjunction with the computer's ECM: the ECM tries to fool the attacker's sensor that you jigged while you actually jagged. The maneuver/evade program and the pilot's skill versus the gunner's skill implies there's a good deal of guessing and instinct going on.

I believe the above captures the actions LBB2 is modeling, but is not as pronounced as the LBB5 agility mechanic which is operating separately from the compare computers part. Crew skill is assumed to be Skill-2 so not as direct a competition in LBB5.

The part you are quoting is more about how full accel agility is different from the type of evasive pictured in LBB2.

On the timing I’m thinking active sensor/return bounce then return fire at light speed for most energy weapons, at 300000 km that’s 2 seconds plus computing and firing, at say ‘agility-4’ that’s 80 meters in an odd direction- big ships don’t get out of their own way but their aspect and what part is presented sure can.

 

[mike wightman]

LBB2 evasion makes a lot more sense if you adapt the Mayday rule...

m-drive can be used for evasion or changing vector not both. A 6g ship can change its vector by up to 6, or apply its m-drive to evasion at the cost of 1g per -1DM. Evasion -DM may never be greater than m-drive number.

Note, I can use this for vector or range band combat.

 

[kilemall]

None of those will affect mesons or radiation, though, and Agility also avoids them...

Meson weapons aren’t in LBB2 so the evade mechanism isn’t in play except perhaps as a component of computer compare along with EW. Agility is and makes sense to me as meson weapons are really aiming in a point in space to detonate in, x meter sphere if we take the Striker definition.

 

[kilemall]

LBB2 evasion makes a lot more sense if you adapt the Mayday rule...

m-drive can be used for evasion or changing vector not both. A 6g ship can change its vector by up to 6, or apply its m-drive to evasion at the cost of 1g per -1DM. Evasion -DM may never be greater than m-drive number.

Note, I can use this for vector or range band combat.

That’s exactly the way it should be, except I wouldn’t make it all one way or another.