• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

OTU Only: The Vegans

Marchand

SOC-12
I've read the writeups of the Vegans in the Classic, GURPS and Mongoose iterations of the Solomani Rim. However I'm not aware of much material on their technology and particularly, their ships. Is anyone aware of a place where this is covered? Ships in particular seems a big gap. Some Vegan types would be a good way to add flavour to a Rim campaign.

Also, any Classic-flavoured* writeups of Vegan character creation out there? The Mongoose book has specific event and mishap tables, but doesn't offer specific Vegan careers.

*so, CT, MT, MGT; possibly T4/T5.
 
For CT and MT there isn't anything; the Vegans are described in broad terms for background's sake but that's it.
 
You're not going to see a lot of Jump-capable ships for a Minor Race for that specific reason - because they are a Minor Race. You'll see it more if the Minor Race has a Pocket Empire. A Minor Race within the Imperium would probably use standard Imperial designs.

And their technology would be based on hydroponics and growing fruits and vegetables faster...

I'm kidding about that second part.
 
They have at least one Kinunir class Colonial Cruiser and in theory could copy and build more.
Most of their worlds have a TL of 14, so they can design and build their own ships. Why they would bother with something as insignificant as a Kinunir is a mystery, as is why the Imperium donated a Kinunir in the first place.


Hans
 
Because it needs retconning to either the Imperium donating a real battle cruiser or the Kinunir redesigned as a HG2 70kt state of the art TL15 warship.

Otherwise the battle of the two suns and the donation to the Vegans is laughable at best...
 
The Vegan worlds are high population and high technology -- real economic engines for the Solomani Rim. In the GURPS Traveller timeline, the capital of the Domain of Sol gets moved to Muan Gwi in 1112. In the Rebellion timeline, the Solomani recapture the Solomani Sphere and then some -- only the Vegan Autonomous District and a few surrounding systems manage to hold out.

Minor race or not, they have some real industrial clout and their environmental needs are fairly different from humans. Seems like they could easily have their own ship designs, even if none have been documented in canon.
 
Most of their worlds have a TL of 14, so they can design and build their own ships. Why they would bother with something as insignificant as a Kinunir is a mystery, as is why the Imperium donated a Kinunir in the first place.

Hans

Because it needs retconning to either the Imperium donating a real battle cruiser or the Kinunir redesigned as a HG2 70kt state of the art TL15 warship.

Otherwise the battle of the two suns and the donation to the Vegans is laughable at best...

As Mike points out, there's a bit of a bump in 1979 around what kind of ships the Imperium has and what size of ship is a battle cruiser or not.

Re-reading the introduction to High Guard, my interpretation is that the book was designed to be a generic set of instructions for building any kind of ship (at almost any scale) players wanted to build. But nowhere doe the book suggest that every scale within High Guard should be available in every Traveller game. It is a set of rules to be used as the players wish. Moreover, the text does not suggest the the Traveller OTU has ships of a scale larger than those found in Book 2.

Here is the text:

Traveller assumes a remote centralized government (referred to in this volume as the Imperium) possessed of great industrial and technological might; but due to the sheer distances and travel times involved within its star-spanning realm, the lmperium is unable to be everywhere at once. As a result, the lmperium allows a large degree of autonomy to its subject worlds, calling only for some respect for its overall policies, and for a united front against outside pressures.

To monitor the space lanes, the lmperium maintains a Navy. Because these forces can never be everywhere at once, local provinces (subsectors) also maintain navies, as do individual worlds. This three tiered structure of Imperial, subsector, and planetary navies produces a flexible system for patrolling space, while putting the limited resources of the lmperium to best use.

High Guard deals with the navies of the Imperium, of subsectors, and of worlds.

Note that the text is explicit: Traveller assumes the PCs will adventure in an area remote from some sort of centralized government. What that government is is not defined. The generic term used for the rule book is "The Imperium" for the purposes of the book. But it clearly is not the Imperium of the OTU. (If this seems puzzling, re-read the text.)

The fact that High Guard allowed 500,000 ton ships didn't mean that they had to exist in a Traveller game, nor that they had to be part of the OTU. As Miller has said in a quote I posted elsewhere, GDW was only beginning to build out the OTU in 1979 -- two years after the release of the original boxed set.

I suspect that in 1979 -- when both High Guard and Adventure 1 The Kinunir came out -- Miller was still working with the assumption of a "Small Ship" universe of Books 1-3 for the adventure. His Battle Cruiser was, after all, only 1,200 tons. Either 1,200 tons is a big deal... or it isn't.

In Adventure 1 it was a big deal. In later supplements, as OTU took over, the potential of ships in High Guard became the default.

I can only work with the text of Adventure 1, High Guard, and Miller's quotes to come to this conclusion, but it seems to fit.

Because, as both Hans and Mike point out, there's a bump in exactly whether the Kinunir is a Battle Cruiser or not. Clearly it was a battle cruiser in Adventure 1. But as the ships got larger and larger in the OTU, it wasn't one at all.
 
As Mike points out, there's a bit of a bump in 1979 around what kind of ships the Imperium has and what size of ship is a battle cruiser or not.
Size and/or number. It seems to me that around 1979, someone at GDW sat down and worked out what sort of tonnage a high-population world could afford in terms of warships. The early Imperium wasn't just a small ship universe; it was a small ship and unbelievably few of them universe. A small ship universe doesn't really help promote the not enough ships to patrol the backwaters trope if you can build thousands of them. In such a case big ships are actually a help, soaking up the tonnage.

Moreover, the text does not suggest the the Traveller OTU has ships of a scale larger than those found in Book 2.
No, but the population figures and ship-building costs did. Sort of, anyway.

I suspect that in 1979 -- when both High Guard and Adventure 1 The Kinunir came out -- Miller was still working with the assumption of a "Small Ship" universe of Books 1-3 for the adventure.
I'm sure he was. And then the OTU developed for 30 more years. And every time someone established a fact that wasn't established in 1979, the door closed on some possibilities. (In the OTU; the doors remained open in other universes.) That's the way it works when you develop a setting. Which is why I don't understand what it matters what the intentions were in 1979. It's not 1979 any more. It hasn't been 1979 for a LONG time.

His Battle Cruiser was, after all, only 1,200 tons. Either 1,200 tons is a big deal... or it isn't.

In Adventure 1 it was a big deal. In later supplements, as OTU took over, the potential of ships in High Guard became the default.
It was a big deal, yes. But it was also a deal that didn't make sense even back then. Worlds with the population figures set forth in The Spinward Marches shouldn't be building 1250T cruisers in 24-ship production runs and assigning four to a subsector; they should be building them in thousand-ship production runs and assigning them in multiple squadrons per subsector.


Hans
 
I would suggest that Supplement 9 Fighting Ships tends to contradict the last part.

Yes, a book that came out two years after High Guard defined the assumptions about Third Imperium fleets. The nature of the Third Imperium changed from the time of Adventure 1 to future products. I said as much -- and this is not news.

As to why it matter what the intentions were in 1979... I was addressing the issue of why the Kinunir once mattered at both the Battle of Two Suns and as a gift, and no longer does. That's all. When it comes to the OTU, the past does not matter. It is what it is now.
 
As to why it matter what the intentions were in 1979... I was addressing the issue of why the Kinunir once mattered at both the Battle of Two Suns and as a gift, and no longer does. That's all. When it comes to the OTU, the past does not matter. It is what it is now.
I actually have the germ of an idea to explain the gift part -- indeed, I have two different and mutually contradictory ideas. Quoting from another post in another thread:

It's either a subtle insult or there's some angle that makes it a compliment. I did have an idea that would make it compliment: Some important Vegan scion -- a direct descendant of the Third Soogaj, or something -- was serving aboard the Shurrupak and performed some sort of heroics or had his life saved. So the Vegans asked for the ship so that they could put it on display in a memorial sort of thing. However, I can't get the weapons refit to fit (so to speak).

It works much better as an elaborate insult. The Empress goes to great lengths to procure the ship -- it takes about two years to summon if from the Marches. Then it gets an utterly insignificant refit and has its name formally changed. This isn't just a personal gift, it's a personalized one. And then Iolanthe presents it to the Vegans with as much pomp and circumstance as if it had been a squadron of Tigresses. and the Vegans has to grin and utter fulsome thanks. "Just the thing we need; how nice."

Yes, I can see that happening. If for some reason the Empress wanted to stick a metaphorical thumb in the Vegans' collective eye, this is one way of doing it. But what reason? Could the new name be some sort of clue? Frankly, I'm stumped.

Of course, one could simply leave the reason unexplained. After all, whatever the reason, the official story would be the one about the Empress donating a ship to the Vegans, nothing more. But I'd feel happier if I could come up with a good story.

Ah, well...​

As to the Battle of the Two Suns, OTOH, I've got nothing.


Hans
 
I actually have the germ of an idea to explain the gift part -- indeed, I have two different and mutually contradictory ideas.

As to the Battle of the Two Suns, OTOH, I've got nothing.


Hans

Well, here's the thing:

Given the fact that the OTU was built both over time and on the fly, Mike's suggestion of retconning the Kinunir class ships so they actually are the size and threat of a Third Imperium-worthy battle cruiser seems to solve several problems.

In other words, trying to build, after the fact, all the contradictions of three decades and many hands into one consistent universe seems a preposterous chore. At some point, I think, one is allowed to ask: a) Okay, what happened here? What was the logic; and b) What's the best way to fold all this into a logic bit of setting and history now that we know what happened?

That was the point of my posts. And I agree with Mike about his proposed solution.
 
Given the fact that the OTU was built both over time and on the fly, Mike's suggestion of retconning the Kinunir class ships so they actually are the size and threat of a Third Imperium-worthy battle cruiser seems to solve several problems.
That's one possibility. I've gone the other way by coming up with an explanation for someone in the Spinward Marches building 24 1250T ships. (Basically, they were meant to be R&D test platforms). The reason I chose to go that way is that I think it would be a pity to invalidate the deck plans. The Kinunir is one of a fairly limited set of deck plans and I'd like to keep them. (Yes, I realize that one could file off the serial numbers and recycle the deck plans as the plans for the Gamboa class destroyer).


Hans
 
The reason I chose to go that way is that I think it would be a pity to invalidate the deck plans. The Kinunir is one of a fairly limited set of deck plans and I'd like to keep them. (Yes, I realize that one could file off the serial numbers and recycle the deck plans as the plans for the Gamboa class destroyer).


Hans

For what it's worth, this is what I would have suggested. This even keeps Adventure 1 stand as a viable adventure module.
 
For what it's worth, I like the idea of the Kinunir being a test project. AIIRC they are also the smallest published ship to carry a spinal mount.

A squadron of 1250t ships with spinal mounts vs just one large ship with a single spinal mount sends shivers up my spine as to how truly vicious that could be in play.

Just a thought.
 
No spinal.

Missiles lase and turreted particle accelerator. The likeliest response on Kinunir is they were designed as Jefferson gunboats to see if many small are better than one big, Jefferson was wrong and that was showed in War of 1812. The big frigates ruled.
 
A retcon is required.

Your two choices are:

redesign as a battle cruiser under HG2 rules (a proposed replacement for the aging Atlantic class that is being removed from service)

This choice allows you to keep the Battle of the Two Suns fluff and transfer to the Vegans.

or you redesignate the class to escort class and lose the fluff
 
Back
Top