Thin Atmosphere

[Timerover51]

I came across this in Roy Chapman Andrews book, Camps and Trails in China, covering his 1916 expedition to China for the American Natural History Museum in New York. Andrews is view by some to be the basis for Indiana Jones. I have posted it elsewhere, but thought that it might be of interest to the community at large.

He was in a mountainous area, at between 8,000 and 12,000 feet in altitude, which I would think probably put him in what Traveller would regard as a "thin" atmosphere. He and his party, used to much lower, near sea-level elevations had much more trouble than the natives of the area. It might be something that you would want to consider in running an adventure or campaign.

We had nearly crossed the open slope and were standing on the edge of a deep gully when the dogs gave tongue and as soon as the hunters were sure they were coming in our direction we hurried to the bottom of the gorge and began the sharp ascent on the other side. It was almost straight up and before we had gone a hundred feet we were all gasping for breath and my legs seemed like bars of lead, but the staccato yelps of the dogs sounding closer and closer kept us going.

When we finally dropped on the summit of the hill I was absolutely done. I lay flat on my back for a few minutes and got to my knees just as the goral appeared on the opposite cliff.

Emphasis is added.

In line with the thought on atmosphere, I was wondering how it would work to include "cold" as one of the atmospheric taints, as cold, dry air is extremely hard on the lungs. Having been in Alaska and out at 62 below zero Fahrenheit, which is minus 52 Celsius, I can attest to how it feels. You have to have either a mask or scarf or muffler of some kind over your mouth, or it feels like you are breathing fire.

Edit Note: Just came across this in the Andrew's book, and it nicely illustrates my ideas. Note the 15,000 foot altitude.

Late in the afternoon the exhausted men and animals dragged themselves to the summit of the mountain, for it was not a pass. In a few hours we had come from autumn to mid-winter where the ground was frozen and covered with snow. We were at an altitude of more than 15,000 feet and far above all timber except the rhododendron forest which spread itself out in a low gray mass along the ridges. It was difficult to make the slightest exertion in the thin air and a bitterly cold wind swept across the peaks so that it was impossible to keep warm even when wrapped in our heaviest coats.

 

[BytePro]

Environmental situations vary - if you're talking UPP code, no I would not say cold temp alone justifies a particular atmo coding.

This type of detail goes beyond the normal mechanics in CT, though I know other versions drill down a lot more with explicit mechanics attached to the codes, I still don't see it as a good fit.

Atmo code, to me at least, is pretty much related to chemical composition and pressure. Extremes of cold and high heat both present breathing problems related to moisture - not to mention dusty or just really repugnant aroma atmos or biologically rich (molds, spores, fungi, insects) ones - all of which might dictate special breathing gear, biological adaptations (ala the natives in the above account), or other special traveling apparatus.

Besides moisture - there are lots of thermal, medical and metabolic issues I'm sure from your other postings that you could elaborate on in depth for such freaking cold temps.

I've read some good fiction (Alistair MacLean comes to mind) that elaborated on extreme sub-zero temps in the plot dealing with special issues of metal, fuels and landscape in such climes - a 'sub-arctic' supplement would probably be welcome by many... hint, hint.

 

[Timerover51]

Environmental situations vary - if you're talking UPP code, no I would not say cold temp alone justifies a particular atmo coding.

This type of detail goes beyond the normal mechanics in CT, though I know other versions drill down a lot more with explicit mechanics attached to the codes, I still don't see it as a good fit.

Atmo code, to me at least, is pretty much related to chemical composition and pressure. Extremes of cold and high heat both present breathing problems related to moisture - not to mention dusty or just really repugnant aroma atmos or biologically rich (molds, spores, fungi, insects) ones - all of which might dictate special breathing gear, biological adaptations (ala the natives in the above account), or other special traveling apparatus.

Besides moisture - there are lots of thermal, medical and metabolic issues I'm sure from your other postings that you could elaborate on in depth for such freaking cold temps.

I've read some good fiction (Alistair MacLean comes to mind) that elaborated on extreme sub-zero temps in the plot dealing with special issues of metal, fuels and landscape in such climes - a 'sub-arctic' supplement would probably be welcome by many... hint, hint.

I have read HMS Ulysses and Ice Station Zebra by MacLean that are in that area, but have not read some of his other books set in the Arctic or sub-Arctic. I prefer his earlier books to the later ones.

There is a fair amount of Arctic and Antarctic exploration material available at Project Gutenberg. Polar exploration is one of my many interests.

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

He was in a mountainous area, at between 8,000 and 12,000 feet in altitude, which I would think probably put him in what Traveller would regard as a "thin" atmosphere. He and his party, used to much lower, near sea-level elevations had much more trouble than the natives of the area. It might be something that you would want to consider in running an adventure or campaign.

I paid a visit to 14,000 feet once, and the main thing I took away from it was how challenging it was to even eat and breathe at the same time. I always felt strangely suffocated any time I wasn't actually taking in a breath. Moving around wasn't so much of a problem, although I could see how blacking out inconveniently could be a real issue if you weren't too careful. Still, I could see how one could get used to it, given a few weeks of acclimation.

Oxygen levels at 14,000 feet in an Earth-like atmosphere are about 65% that of sea level. I don't know how that compares to, say, a UWP of 5 on the atmo rating, but I suppose it's close. An atmospheric density/oxygen level of 50% is about equal to 20,000 feet or so in Earth terms.

In line with the thought on atmosphere, I was wondering how it would work to include "cold" as one of the atmospheric taints, as cold, dry air is extremely hard on the lungs. Having been in Alaska and out at 62 below zero Fahrenheit, which is minus 52 Celsius, I can attest to how it feels. You have to have either a mask or scarf or muffler of some kind over your mouth, or it feels like you are breathing fire.

Getting oxygen at those temperatures isn't a problem -- or at least it isn't nearly as serious an issue as, say, avoiding hypothermia or losing an extremity to frostbite. You may need a mask or scarf for skin protection, but you don't really need it to breathe comfortably.

You pretty much stop breathing directly into your lungs in anything below about -20 Fahrenheit (-30C). You either take it in through your nose (actually not that comfortable) or you use your tongue to 'churn' it in your mouth first to warm it up before it hits the lungs. That works for anything outside of the most extreme exertions and temperatures. Scarves work too, but I tend to avoid them except in the most frigid conditions because I wear glasses and it's a PITA to deal with defrosting them if you accidentally breathe the wrong way and get blowback up from the scarf onto your lenses.

 

[Timerover51]

Besides moisture - there are lots of thermal, medical and metabolic issues I'm sure from your other postings that you could elaborate on in depth for such freaking cold temps.

Other postings?

I've read some good fiction (Alistair MacLean comes to mind) that elaborated on extreme sub-zero temps in the plot dealing with special issues of metal, fuels and landscape in such climes - a 'sub-arctic' supplement would probably be welcome by many... hint, hint.

Hmm, I take it that you are hinting at a sub-Arctic supplement. Not sure if that would work, as I have a lot of heretical ideas.

Edit Note: Aramis would probably be far more capable than me to write an Arctic or Cold Weather supplement. He knows far more about Traveller and everything else than I do. I just have this odd idea that I might know a few things, but clearly Aramis is by far my superior in all branches of knowledge.

 

[rancke]

Gamelords published The Mountain Environment and Ascent to Anekthor, a companion adventure involving mountain climbing.


Hans

 

[aramis]

If you want a good Traveller cold weather supplement, Arctic Environment was released by Cargonaut Press a few years back. Sure, it's CT...

 

[rancke]

If you want a good Traveller cold weather supplement, Arctic Environment was released by Cargonaut Press a few years back. Sure, it's CT...

It's also pretty difficult to get hold of (Unless it's on one of the recent DVDs). I believe the print run of The Lost Keith Collection was 100 copies.

(I have one! )


Hans

 

[aramis]

It's also pretty difficult to get hold of (Unless it's on one of the recent DVDs). I believe the print run of The Lost Keith Collection was 100 copies.

(I have one! )


Hans

So do I. One could hope that Paul would let FFE do a Cargonaut disk...

 

[BeRKA]

Top Gear in the Andes

For another look at the effects of high altitude, have a look at the Top Gear Bolivia Special where they go over the Andes. When I watched that, I thought that this must be what atm=5 is like.

 

[flykiller]

http://sometimes-interesting.com/2011/06/29/over-200-dead-bodies-on-mount-everest/

 

[agorski]

It's also pretty difficult to get hold of (Unless it's on one of the recent DVDs). I believe the print run of The Lost Keith Collection was 100 copies.

(I have one! )


Hans

Wow, only 100 copies? I managed to find a complete set also.

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

For another look at the effects of high altitude, have a look at the Top Gear Bolivia Special where they go over the Andes. When I watched that, I thought that this must be what atm=5 is like.

That might even be closer to atm=4. Those guys were pretty much at the level where nobody can live viably for any extensive period of time (not even adapted populations), and I believe atm=5 makes no allowances for respirators or the like. Long-term human habitation tops out at 13,000-14,000 feet here on Earth, even after thousands or years of preparation, which would seem to put a livable oxygen level for non-geneered populations at around 60-65% T-norm.

Also, what were those idiots thinking? I've seen people get floored by altitude sickness at 8,000 feet, that these guys were schlepping around at over twice that height? In what looks like a couple of carbureted vehicles, no less?

Englishmen. What are ya gonna do?

 

[Fritz_Brown]

I think you mean atmo=2/3. The only difference from 5 to 4 is adding a taint.
2 = very thin, tainted
3 = very thin
4 = thin, tainted
5 = thin

 

[Timerover51]

That might even be closer to atm=4. Those guys were pretty much at the level where nobody can live viably for any extensive period of time (not even adapted populations), and I believe atm=5 makes no allowances for respirators or the like. Long-term human habitation tops out at 13,000-14,000 feet here on Earth, even after thousands or years of preparation, which would seem to put a livable oxygen level for non-geneered populations at around 60-65% T-norm.

Also, what were those idiots thinking? I've seen people get floored by altitude sickness at 8,000 feet, that these guys were schlepping around at over twice that height? In what looks like a couple of carbureted vehicles, no less?

Englishmen. What are ya gonna do?

A carburetor allows you to adjust the fuel mixture to match the atmospheric intake pressure, so as not to put too rich a fuel mixture into the cylinders. A fuel injector injects the same amount of fuel regardless of pressure. At very high altitudes, assuming that you do not have some form of supercharging, a carburetor makes much more sense than a fuel injector, unless you adjust the injector to reduce the amount of fuel sprayed into the cylinders.

The Rolls-Royce Merlin aircraft engine, clearly one of the finest aircraft engines ever built, used a carburetor very nicely in its early versions, and was used on the Hawker Hurricane, the Supermarine Spitfire, and the Avro Lancaster heavy bomber, along with the Packard-built licensed US version used on the later modesl of the P-40, and also used on virtually all models of the P-51. That is by no means an exhaustive list of the aircraft that used the engine. I would have to check to see if it was ever converted to fuel injection.

 

[Timerover51]

Thought of this just now as I was looking at my Army cooking manual from 1883. Cooking at high altitudes is a problem as well, as water boils at a lot lower temperature. Either you need to be in a pressurized shelter or ship, or have some sort of pressure cooker to properly cook a lot of things. The other option, of course, is sort of warmed up canned rations or MREs. Interestingly enough, the 1883 manual does give some instructions for cooking at high altitudes.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Absolutely right, timerover. Even things like your MRE heater might not work as efficiently (or more efficiently!) "at altitude". Vacuum packaging won't be effected, but any packaging with a quantity of air (and some liquids) in it will bloat in a thin atmosphere - it might even burst. (It might burst just the tiniest bit - allowing moisture in, and spoiling your food.)

 

[Timerover51]

While poking around online at some military history sites, I found one with the WW2 Snow and Extreme Cold Manual, the WW2 Dog Team Transportation Manual, and the WW2 Mountain Operations Manual. As these are all in PDF format, they are easy to download and use. Would there be any interest on the forum for having them posted to the downloads section? The data is still quite usable and valid.

I do have more cold weather operations data as well.

MOUNTAIN SICKNESS. Mountain, or altitude, sickness is an acute temporary illness occurring in moun▮tains. The novice and experienced climber alike are subject to this malady in altitudes as low as 4,000 to 5,000 feet. The cause is usually poor physical condition; lack of acclimatization, or both. Symptoms may be head▮ache, nausea, vomiting, lack of appetite, insomnia, and irritability. This condition can be relieved by rest. In rare cases the patient must be taken to a lower altitude.

Above is a sample from the mountain operations manual.

 

[Enoki]

I would think that given advances in medicine if you had a medic or doctor present and sufficent tech you could have some injection or medication they give you that counteracts some or all of the effects of altitude to some degree....

 

[Bob Weaver]

I would think that given advances in medicine if you had a medic or doctor present and sufficent tech you could have some injection or medication they give you that counteracts some or all of the effects of altitude to some degree....

Enoki, you're absolutely right. Here's an article from the National Library of Medicine (open access) which defines altitude sickness, and discusses the effectiveness of some pharmaceuticals intended to prevent symptoms of AS. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2907615/

In a Traveller themed short story I wrote, which I'm hoping to have published in an e-zine later this year, the protagonists find themselves on a planet with a thin atmo and are unexpectedly thrown into danger and have to run, without breathing gear. I've incorporated some symptoms of AS to make their situation more complex, but they've had some anti-AS meds so they're not totally incapacitated. If I was really strict about the effects of AS on them, they wouldn't be able to function and it wouldn't be much of a story. So my advice is make the density of the atmosphere an element of danger, but don't drag the adventure down with too much science. It's hard to be heroic when you're groggy and exhausted from walking to the front door.

Cheers,
Bob W