Things I've Learned about Gun Combat

[robject]

This is new to me.

If you're trained, that is, like every Traveller character who has even level zero in a gun combat-type skill, here are some of the things that go into this training.

* you know that shoulder or leg hits can hit an artery, causing a bleed-out.
* you know that a torso hit can cause slow, painful death, internal bleeding, sepsis...
* when you draw a gun in a gunfight, you inherently accept the potential responsibility for someone else dying. I.E. you've already dealt with that scenario in your mind at some level.
* when you draw a gun your adrenaline kicks in, which means you lose fine motor skill and your focus narrows; the wrong focus can be fatal.
* you're trained to not freeze.

 

[whartung]

I don't recall seeing "Coping-0" or "Anatomy-0" as added skills when you train Gun Combat. Are they part of the cascade? Where did you see all this?

 

[robject]

I don't recall seeing "Coping-0" or "Anatomy-0" as added skills when you train Gun Combat. Are they part of the cascade? Where did you see all this?

On the world-wide web. The interwebs knows all. (Now you've got me questioning if it's really true, but it sounds right.)

So then, when I see Gun Combat-0, I see that "Firefight Coping-0" and "Target Anatomy-0" is built-in.

This is the sort of stuff Marc Miller would take for granted, but stuff I may have only partially guessed at. I can hear it now...

MWM: Of COURSE they teach you not to freeze. What do you think military firearms training is ABOUT?
RJE: I dunno. How to field-strip your weapon?
MWM: Yes, but you watch too much TV.

 

[mike wightman]

Most civilian people with firearms training are unaware of the dangers of shooting at limbs, pretty much the same way as gang members are unaware that stabbing each other in the arms and legs can be fatal. Nor are they accustomed to the real stresses since their paper targets do not shoot back.

Military training is all about battlefield conditioning - the single best example of this was T:2000 coolness under fire.

 

[Timerover51]

When the adrenaline kicks in, the ability to withstand damage also goes up. Hits that would incapacitate a surprised person can be ignored for a time while pumped up with adrenaline.

With respect to leg and arm hits, depending on the weapon used, there is also the chance for massive shattering of the bones if they are hit. This is especially true of heavy, slow-moving projectiles like the Civil War Minie ball and large-caliber pistol bullets.

You shoot based on the weapon you are using. If using a .22 to .32 caliber cartridge, the only immediately incapacitating shot is the head shot. A .45 ACP Hardball in the chest will likely put the average individual down. If you have a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with Double OO buck, the abdomen is also going to be a very nasty shot.

You do not stop shooting until your target is down on the ground.

 

[khadaji2002]

Hmmmm, this opens a discuss for *where* a character learned their gun combat levels. Military and agent careers spring to mind as having the focus of the opening post. Merchant, criminal and drifter careers would seem to focus more on the 'shoot the paper target' school. I don't want to add another skill, but some sort of 'coolness under fire' check as Mike mentioned would then seem to be in order.

 

[kilemall]

This is new to me.

If you're trained, that is, like every Traveller character who has even level zero in a gun combat-type skill, here are some of the things that go into this training.

* you know that shoulder or leg hits can hit an artery, causing a bleed-out.
* you know that a torso hit can cause slow, painful death, internal bleeding, sepsis...
* when you draw a gun in a gunfight, you inherently accept the potential responsibility for someone else dying. I.E. you've already dealt with that scenario in your mind at some level.
* when you draw a gun your adrenaline kicks in, which means you lose fine motor skill and your focus narrows; the wrong focus can be fatal.
* you're trained to not freeze.

We were told way back in S4 that everyone has Gun Combat-0 automatically except for Barbarians, Bureaucrats, and Doctors.

Including professions that don't get even cursory training.

I would take GC-0 to be familiarity with 'point boom stick at target and pull trigger, some have recoil some don't', but not even necessarily a licensing level much less combat training.

I'd say that starts at GC-1.

As for the rest, my tweaked out Striker in combination with my Medical rules gives me the ability to describe all manner of nasty wounds, and for the lowly pistols and daggers to do life-threatening damage.

The armor system I worked out also means some people will have exposed limbs but armored torsos/heads, and so a limb hit could start a bleedout or infection.

STR hit means likely either circulatory/bleeding or broken bone, DEX hit is brain damage/nerve damage/shock/paralysis/loss of feeling, END is organ damage/immune system/infection.

I'm thinking head hits may also put INT and EDU at risk.

 

[Blue Ghost]

The interwebs knows all.

To quote Homer Simpson; "They have the internet on computers now."

So there.

 

[Ishmael]

I don't agree that having experience in shooting a gun will also give basic knowledge of anatomy. I think that would be under 'education' stat as to having a clue as to what forms damage might take.

I don't agree that coolness under fire should be part of gun skill. It should be a form of morale check as discussed in 'Striker'. I'm afraid I don't know if Mongoose has anything like that in its rules, though. Most players probably would revolt against rules that made them do something they don't want to do because of a dice roll...

" you failed your morale check and rout. You must run away to nearby cover. no, you don't get to shoot back. "

Perhaps the effect from a morale check might be used as a dm for hitting the target?

 

[mike wightman]

Call of Cthulhu game many years ago, PCs are being shot at by some mobsters. One of the players is rolling dice unasked for.
"What are you doing?" I ask.
"Rolling against sanity - if I fail I will jump up and shoot at the tommy gun wielding psychopaths."

 

[mike wightman]

STR hit means likely either circulatory/bleeding or broken bone, DEX hit is brain damage/nerve damage/shock/paralysis/loss of feeling, END is organ damage/immune system/infection.

I'm thinking head hits may also put INT and EDU at risk.

I use STR as musculature and bone, DEX as nerve, pain, joints, END as blood loss and organ damage (which usually means lots of blood loss. I do use damage to INT and EDU once all physical stats are at 0 as a way to gauge brain damage, or if a shot to the brain...

 

[Timerover51]

I don't agree that having experience in shooting a gun will also give basic knowledge of anatomy. I think that would be under 'education' stat as to having a clue as to what forms damage might take.

You are correct in this. Most military training is that you aim for the center of mass of the target, which typically is going to be the upper torso/chest area. If you suspect body armor, then either go for the abdomen, likely to be unprotected by the armor, or the head shot. You are not going to intentionally go for an arm or leg shot as those are probably going to be moving and if you miss, that bullet is going to go somewhere that you did not intend. I would argue that the higher the level of Gun Skill, the higher the probability of knowing the anatomy of your target, and placing your shots according. The same would apply to the Hunting Skill.

I don't agree that coolness under fire should be part of gun skill. It should be a form of morale check as discussed in 'Striker'. I'm afraid I don't know if Mongoose has anything like that in its rules, though. Most players probably would revolt against rules that made them do something they don't want to do because of a dice roll...

" you failed your morale check and rout. You must run away to nearby cover. no, you don't get to shoot back. "

Perhaps the effect from a morale check might be used as a dm for hitting the target?

I would say that if you want a morale check, it just means that you freeze a moment, and end up shooting last.

When you read the accounts of the Western gunfighters, speed on the draw was rarely one of the concerns, Getting off an accurate first shot was the main concern.

 

[Otto Harkaman]

I realized how hard it is to hip fire accurately at something a couple weeks back when I was at the firing range. I quickly decided a laser was necessary when not using sites to aim. Been working a lot so I haven't had the chance to go back to the range but I am looking forward to practicing to see if I can get better without a laser. I was using a Walther/Colt M4 chambered in .22lr with 30rd mags.

 

[welsh]

Centre of visible mass. Bang.

That's all the anatomy you need to know.

Gun Combat is primarily weapons skill: sight picture, breathing, trigger control, instinctive shooting, etc., etc. It is simple marksmanship. "Simple" but a nontrivial skill.

No gun combat skill means no knowledge of basic things like how to load the thing, where the safety is, how to clear stoppages, and perhaps most importantly basic firearms safety. The weapon feels clumsy (especially if a long gun), you probably hold it improperly and you don't really know how to aim.

Gun combat 0 implies knowledge of these things but no real marksmanship skill.

 

[Ex_Pendable]

Back when it was the Department of War, a study was commissioned on the effects of various calibers, so they purchased a few cows to shoot.

They shot ten rounds of .22 into the side of a cow, and it only made it turn around to see what all the noise was about.

One of the results of that study was the determination that it would take a 3 inch shell to stop someone if they were shot in the arm or the leg, so you'd have to be hauling around a cannon.

Soldiers are trained to aim for the center of mass because it's effective. Trying to target limbs in the middle of a gun fight is more likely to get yourself killed.

Now, if you have a shotgun and you're up against a boarding party, shooting at the metal deck (even if it's covered by vinyl tile) will cause the pellets to rebound off the deck plates and travel at ankle level until they're stopped - hopefully by the invaders. It's not going to kill them or keep them from shooting back, but they're going to be hobbled.

 

[Condottiere]

What I've been instructed by people who should know about these things, if you get hit by a bullet from a combat firearm, you are hors de combat.

What I read about the origins of the nineteen eleven automatic pistol, exceptions appear to be someone highly motivated hopped up with drugs, and apparently tightly wrapped with bandages.

Twenty two calibre can be used to assassinate people and silence dogs.

What Traveller taught me, was that you can take your gyrostabilized shotgun practically everywhere with you.

 

[Ex_Pendable]

Zippo guns were used by the IRA for up-close assassinations by aiming the lighter's chimney so the .22 bullet would go up the nasal canal, the bone there is very thin. Helpful if your target's a smoker.

The top of your head and the temples (where the bone indents) are other weak points that a .22 can penetrate if you're up close, usually while the person you're about to shoot is kneeling still. The small bullet then rattles around inside the skull, doing a lot of damage.

 

[infojunky]

Now, if you have a shotgun and you're up against a boarding party, shooting at the metal deck (even if it's covered by vinyl tile) will cause the pellets to rebound off the deck plates and travel at ankle level until they're stopped - hopefully by the invaders. It's not going to kill them or keep them from shooting back, but they're going to be hobbled.

Actually Aim Low, between working the action for the next shot and general shock/excitement of close combat you tend to let your barrel rise.

 

[Timerover51]

There is a discussion of the War Department test in Major Julian Hatcher's book Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers, written in 1934 and now available in reprint. I was just going through my copy, and the chapter on stopping power. As Hatcher is very careful to give his sources, I was able to find online and download a summary of the test results contained in the following book by Colonel Louis La Garde, U.S. Army Medical Corps, who was one of the two officers involved in the test. The other was Colonel John Thompson, inventor of the Thompson Sub-Machinegun. You can download the 1916 edition of the book from archive.org, https://archive.org/details/gunshotinjuriesh1916laga, with the discussion beginning on page 69.

Back when it was the Department of War, a study was commissioned on the effects of various calibers, so they purchased a few cows to shoot.

They shot ten rounds of .22 into the side of a cow, and it only made it turn around to see what all the noise was about.

The following were used in the course of the tests, with the smallest calibre of weapon being the .30 Luger.

The Board fired altogether into ten cadavers, sixteen beeves and two horses.

One of the results of that study was the determination that it would take a 3 inch shell to stop someone if they were shot in the arm or the leg, so you'd have to be hauling around a cannon.

For shattering the long bones in the arms and legs, the most efficient cartridge was found to be the British .476, the largest cartridge used in the test. The .45 Colt also performed well, the smaller .38 and .30 caliber cartridges did not perform adequately in the view of the testers.

Soldiers are trained to aim for the center of mass because it's effective. Trying to target limbs in the middle of a gun fight is more likely to get yourself killed.

The following quote appears on page 69 of the book. The service rifle involved would have been the .30-40 Krag firing a round-nosed full-jacketed bullet.

Colonel Winter and Captain McAndrew, Medical Corps, U. S. A., have related the following incident to the author which bears upon the failure in stopping power of our service rifle: In 1907 a Moro charged the guard at Jolo, P. I. When he was within 100 yards, the entire guard opened fire on him. When he had reached within 5 yards of the firing party he stumbled and fell and while in the prone position a trumpeter killed him by shooting through the head with a . 45-caliber Colt's revolver. There were ten wounds in his body from the service rifle. Three of the wounds were located in the chest, one in the abdomen and the remainder had taken effect in the extremities. There were no bones broken.

The Krag had a 5-round magazine located on the side of the receiver, so it can be assumed that none of the soldiers firing had time to reload. If the guard was as large as 10 men, 50 shots would have most that could have been fired. Ten hits shows a very high level of accuracy on the part of the soldiers shooting.

One other factor taken into account by the testing group was range.

Revolvers and pistols being short-range weapons, 75 yards were
agreed upon as the extreme range, 37 1/2 yards as the medium range, and near the muzzle as close range. Simulated velocities were used for the first two ranges.

I will have to see about extracting this summary of the report from the book and posting it somewhere. The entire book looks to be interesting reading as Col. La Garde includes a considerable amount of data from casualties in World War One.

 

[BlackBat242]

Centre of visible mass. Bang.

That's all the anatomy you need to know.

Gun Combat is primarily weapons skill: sight picture, breathing, trigger control, instinctive shooting, etc., etc. It is simple marksmanship. "Simple" but a nontrivial skill.

No gun combat skill means no knowledge of basic things like how to load the thing, where the safety is, how to clear stoppages, and perhaps most importantly basic firearms safety. The weapon feels clumsy (especially if a long gun), you probably hold it improperly and you don't really know how to aim.

Gun combat 0 implies knowledge of these things but no real marksmanship skill.

Gun combat 0 = 1980s USN "weapons familiarization" - according to friends who went though USN basic training at the time, they were taught how to load, unload, aim, & fire - when they went to the range they simply shot downrange in the direction of the targets (usually a M-16 converted to .22LR, and possibly a .22LR handgun)... if they missed completely they were simply "passed", and their records marked "requires training before being issued a firearm", while those that did well were tagged for possible later training for the "ship's self-defense team" on whatever ship they might be stationed.

The USMC (I went through boot in the summer of 1981) gave you GC-1 (possibly GC-2) in assault rifle (M-16), and GC-0 in handgun, machine gun (one magazine with a M1911, and one short belt with a M60), and hand grenade. Some of us also got GC-0 in grenade launcher (M79 or M203).
Further GC skills were taught in the School of Infantry (at that time non-infantry MOS Marines didn't go to SoI, but since 1989, all Marines go to SOI after basic, then to their MOS schools). SoI consists of MCT (Marine Combat Training) - a 29-day course for non-infantry Marines, and ITB (Infantry Training Battalion) - a 59-day intensive course for infantry Marines.