Things I've Learned about Gun Combat

[welsh]

In CT, level-0 skill means no penalty, while no skill imposes the penalties. So the game expects that Level 0 gun combat has had to fight using a gun, and at least viscerally (pun?) knows what it means to be in a firefight.

I think part of my point was building from earlier in the thread - to me, "Gun Combat" as a skill covers a broad swath of information, from the weapon itself, to basic tactics using that weapon (not general "tactics" as a skill), to why you shoot rounds where on a particular sophont....

Can't agree with this thinking.

Just look at the rules. Gun Combat skill provides no DMs for achieving surprise, for morale checks, for damage ... it affects only one thing: to hit.

Let's recall that in CT there was originally no "gun combat" skill. You had Shotgun-1 or Auto Pistol-1, etc. This was silly on its face; if you are skilled with a handgun then you ought to be skilled with any handgun. So Gun Combat generalizes this skill.

Calling it "Gun Combat" confuses things because of that "combat" word ... but the default Traveller assumption is that guns are for fighting. It's still just marksmanship, because marksmanship is the only game effect.

 

[mike wightman]

And in CT any and all characters, bar the ones mentioned in S:4, have a skill level of 1/2, later 0, in every weapon they pick up.
To be completely unskilled and lack any ability gets you the -5DM to attack and +3 when defending.

Surprise is not affected by weapon skills, but you do get +1 for military experience.

So all Travellers are assumed to have some experience with getting into combat - bar the S4 careers mentioned.

Have they all been in firefight? Have they all been in bar fights at risk of death?

I have always ruled that all Travellers are made of the stuff that allows them not to freeze in a firefight, hence the automatic level 0 skill. Barbarians and bureaucrats may learn gun combat - does that grant them level 0 in other guns?
The only way a doctor can learn gun combat is to get a gun as a mustering out benefit twice and take the second receipt as skill 1.

 

[Ulsyus]

I'm a little embarrassed that I missed it, but there seems to be a skill that covers the idea of someone who has experience in combat situations.

In the Skills chapter in T5 is listed FIGHTER:

Fighter (also called Fighting) is skill in conflict resolution through violence. Characters with Fighting understand the basic elements of fights: how to attack and defend; how to select and employ weapons; and when to engage and when to withdraw.

The Personal Combat chapter indicates that Fighting is added to C+S totals to determine difficulty numbers to roll under.

So it seems I was missing something out all along - there is a skill that looks like it covers the dealing of violence, keeping of a cool head, and being experienced at managing dangerous situations. Nice to know that some characters at least, who've specialised in backgrounds that involve a little conflict, could have an advantage when dealing with it.

 

[welsh]

And in CT any and all characters, bar the ones mentioned in S:4, have a skill level of 1/2, later 0, in every weapon they pick up.

To me, this is little more than a band-aid slapped over a rule people disliked: you get a character without gun skills, and now you have a severe negative DM when your group gets in a fight. And fighting is the default mode of conflict resolution, so your character is useless ... heaven forbid you should ROLEPLAY the hand you were dealt, so we magically give everyone gun cbt-0.

I'm not a fan of this rule ... instead I let PC's quickly gain gun cbt-0 by dedicating time to learn it ... law level and facilities permitting.

I get the argument that Travellers are exceptional, but why not then give them level 0 in anything they want? It's a goofy rule.

 

[Condottiere]

If you've been in the military, or a paramilitary organization, you can assume that you have some familiarity with small arms.

Some societies may require familiarity, and some environments may make this an essential survival skill that's primarily passed along within a family.

Some games may make unfamiliarity a quirk that would that makes for interesting roleplaying, or codify it more deeply between being really clumsy at it or ideologically against using them.

 

[aramis]

If you've been in the military, or a paramilitary organization, you can assume that you have some familiarity with small arms.

Some societies may require familiarity, and some environments may make this an essential survival skill that's primarily passed along within a family.

Some games may make unfamiliarity a quirk that would that makes for interesting roleplaying, or codify it more deeply between being really clumsy at it or ideologically against using them.

Some societies have universal conscription ...
Some have religious requirements.
Some just have martial cultures.
Some have frontier needs.

 

[Timerover51]

Some more grist for Robject's Gun Combat mill.

https://archive.org/details/Infantry_Weapons_and_Thier_Effects

The misspelling of "their" is in the title.

 

[Condottiere]

Skills: Gun Combat

Unqualified : -
Trained : 0
Qualified ; 1
Sharpshooter : 2
Marksman : 3
Expert : 4

 

[Garyius2003]

I think of zero level gun combat as being like a USAF Airperson or Navy boot camp grad. They know enough to load and shoot and some safety.

Level one rifle is a US Army BMT grad, they can use the rifle well and have special field training and have trained on ranges that simulate field firing.

Level two rifle are USMC grads, in depth rifle training on ranges and extensive field training during the MCT final phase of pre MOS school training.

 

[Enoki]

This is new to me.

If you're trained, that is, like every Traveller character who has even level zero in a gun combat-type skill, here are some of the things that go into this training.

* you know that shoulder or leg hits can hit an artery, causing a bleed-out.
* you know that a torso hit can cause slow, painful death, internal bleeding, sepsis...
* when you draw a gun in a gunfight, you inherently accept the potential responsibility for someone else dying. I.E. you've already dealt with that scenario in your mind at some level.
* when you draw a gun your adrenaline kicks in, which means you lose fine motor skill and your focus narrows; the wrong focus can be fatal.
* you're trained to not freeze.

I disagree with this entirely.

I'd say, after near 30 years of qualifying military and civilian, again and again, that gun combat 0 equals:

You know the basics of loading and firing one or more types of firearms correctly.

You know how to clear and make the weapon safe.

You know the basic sight picture and can hit a target at a reasonable distance under normal range conditions.

You know when shooting at a person you go "Center mass" (chest) and shoot to "stop the action" (ie., once they go down you don't keep firing at them).

You have a preferred stance and know how to correctly hold and aim the weapon.

You have some idea how to deal with a jam, stoppage, or magazine problem.

You know the correct way to squeeze the trigger, control your breathing, and the like to get a reasonable set of hits on the target.

You are likely to be scared / nervous / have an adrenalin rush having to shoot in a real dangerous situation.

Things you have not done / been taught:

Combat shooting and use of barricades and cover as part of your experience.

Firing the weapon off hand or on your weak side / hand.

Firing in a live fire situation or where there is incoming fire.

Firing under pressure and having to be really quick on the draw, aim, or the like.

Firing at moving targets, except maybe skeet or something like that.

You have never fired most heavier or military grade weapons. You likely have never even been close to one.

 

[Timerover51]

I disagree with this entirely.

I'd say, after near 30 years of qualifying military and civilian, again and again, that gun combat 0 equals:

You know the basics of loading and firing one or more types of firearms correctly.

You know how to clear and make the weapon safe.

You know the basic sight picture and can hit a target at a reasonable distance under normal range conditions.

You know when shooting at a person you go "Center mass" (chest) and shoot to "stop the action" (ie., once they go down you don't keep firing at them).

You have a preferred stance and know how to correctly hold and aim the weapon.

You have some idea how to deal with a jam, stoppage, or magazine problem.

You know the correct way to squeeze the trigger, control your breathing, and the like to get a reasonable set of hits on the target.

You are likely to be scared / nervous / have an adrenalin rush having to shoot in a real dangerous situation.

Things you have not done / been taught:

Combat shooting and use of barricades and cover as part of your experience.

Firing the weapon off hand or on your weak side / hand.

Firing in a live fire situation or where there is incoming fire.

Firing under pressure and having to be really quick on the draw, aim, or the like.

Firing at moving targets, except maybe skeet or something like that.

You have never fired most heavier or military grade weapons. You likely have never even been close to one.

Reading this, I would say that this is more a definition of Gun Combat Skill 1.

 

[Enoki]

Reading this, I would say that this is more a definition of Gun Combat Skill 1.

I see level 1 as what I listed plus (using a pistol for the example):

You know how to draw and rack or cock the weapon in one smooth action.
You can bring it on target and at shorter ranges (say 10 meters or less) snap shoot with minimal sight picture.
You know how to swap out magazines during firing as well as load the weapon under pressure.
You can fire the weapon rapidly and accurately versus just somewhat accurately (level 0).
You know how to clear problems and jams on the fly and do it quickly.
You have a good idea what type of ammunition to use and the different basic choices you have and what they are for. For example, for quals I always avoided hollow point ammunition because it tends to be less accurate as range increases.
You can adjust your sights for different ammunition and know how to aim for longer shots, even if you're not real great at hitting things at longer ranges.
You can use a sling with a long arm to steady the weapon and know how to get better accuracy from a number of firing positions.

My view of somebody that's maybe picked up and used a firearm a few times in their life is like not even at level 0 or barely qualifies as that. But, maybe that's just me. The Level 0 person can do what I originally listed but isn't highly proficient either. They might go to the range or practice like once or twice a year, maybe a bit less.

 

[JFGarber]

OK, so help me bridge this into terms that I can use. Let's use me as an example.

I started rabbit hunting with my father at the ripe old age of about seven. I was allowed to carry a breech-loading twenty guage, empty. After a year of that, I was allowed to carry it loaded. My father was really big on "paying attention".

Around ten, I was allowed to upgrade to a 12g. Buckshot and birdshot only. Slugs were added a year later. For my sixteenth birthday I received a .243 that I still use today.

So now I've been an active hunter for forty years. Large game, small game, some birds. None of them shoot back. I do my own maintenance, including some work on optics, but I do not reload.

Am I Gun-0? Gun-1? Certainly not Gun-2. And I have absolutely no experience with handguns.

 

[Timerover51]

OK, so help me bridge this into terms that I can use. Let's use me as an example.

I started rabbit hunting with my father at the ripe old age of about seven. I was allowed to carry a breech-loading twenty guage, empty. After a year of that, I was allowed to carry it loaded. My father was really big on "paying attention".

Around ten, I was allowed to upgrade to a 12g. Buckshot and birdshot only. Slugs were added a year later. For my sixteenth birthday I received a .243 that I still use today.

So now I've been an active hunter for forty years. Large game, small game, some birds. None of them shoot back. I do my own maintenance, including some work on optics, but I do not reload.

Am I Gun-0? Gun-1? Certainly not Gun-2. And I have absolutely no experience with handguns.

I would say Shotgun-2 and Rifle-1, if allowed to break down Gun Combat that way. I would not even list Handgun as Zero. As this is the real world you are reporting on, my guess is that if under fire, you would shoot back. How people react in combat is something that cannot really be determined before it happens. Military training or police training helps, but what happens when the bullets start flying is not really something that can be predicted in advance.

 

[Condottiere]

Coolness under fire.

Gun combat seems a composite skill by implication, so it might need to be more tightly labelled.

 

[Enoki]

OK, so help me bridge this into terms that I can use. Let's use me as an example.

I started rabbit hunting with my father at the ripe old age of about seven. I was allowed to carry a breech-loading twenty guage, empty. After a year of that, I was allowed to carry it loaded. My father was really big on "paying attention".

Around ten, I was allowed to upgrade to a 12g. Buckshot and birdshot only. Slugs were added a year later. For my sixteenth birthday I received a .243 that I still use today.

So now I've been an active hunter for forty years. Large game, small game, some birds. None of them shoot back. I do my own maintenance, including some work on optics, but I do not reload.

Am I Gun-0? Gun-1? Certainly not Gun-2. And I have absolutely no experience with handguns.

I would say gun 1. You are proficient in the weapon's use, beyond basic use, but only in a very specific set of circumstances (hunting and firing range).
Reloading would be a separate skill I'd think. You don't need to know how fire a weapon to reload. You are more of a low end machinist and assembly worker doing that.

 

[Enoki]

As an oddity, I'd probably qualify for archaic firearms 1 since I do a lot of black powder shooting, make my own bullets on occasion, could make the powder but don't because it's just messy and smells awful. Buying Goex #2 is easier (coarse musket rather than the finer pistol powder). I have powder measures, and all the stuff you need to do this, along with experience in how to clear a black powder weapon with fouling and such. I know how to literally lob rounds at longer ranges (say over 200 yards) to get hits, etc.

 

[Timerover51]

As an oddity, I'd probably qualify for archaic firearms 1 since I do a lot of black powder shooting, make my own bullets on occasion, could make the powder but don't because it's just messy and smells awful. Buying Goex #2 is easier (coarse musket rather than the finer pistol powder). I have powder measures, and all the stuff you need to do this, along with experience in how to clear a black powder weapon with fouling and such. I know how to literally lob rounds at longer ranges (say over 200 yards) to get hits, etc.

Hmm, I shoot blackpowder as well. I will have to think about that. There is something very satisfying to touch off 70 grains of blackpowder behind a 400 grain .50 caliber Thompson Maxi-Ball at a range.